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  #41  
Old 08-23-2012, 7:37 AM
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Further, I have received DROS denials on the 12th day before.
Talk about faulty logic.

The PC does not lie, and sometimes is poorly written. There is actually nothing to prevent a FFL from holding a gun past the 30 day period of redros, into infinity. Clearly the lack of a PC provision to prevent that was not intended, but in that absence less adept FFL's can do as they like. Some want 11 days, and that is possibly not a big deal. Those that want 11 days and DON'T MENTION THAT until the initial process is finalized, for instance Big 5 and Bullseye, are on my list and should be avoided.
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  #42  
Old 08-23-2012, 7:46 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
I saw that in my bound book yesterday and wondered what it was, but was way too tired and busy to care. I also didn't even pay attention to who bought it, but I know the seller. Now I am going to have to go dig it out of the safe and see what it is. I know you have a flare for the unusual!

And I have written permission to shoot it so I don't have to claim it came from the seller dirty like that like I normally do.
LOL. The offer is sincere and you don't have to worry about cleaning it. If you take it out, you might want to run .38s through it before trying .357s. It looks like it'll be a handful with .357 loads.
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  #43  
Old 08-23-2012, 8:08 AM
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gun room is so expensive, i didnt know anybody bought from them.
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  #44  
Old 08-23-2012, 9:07 AM
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To the OP , heres a novel idea . Step up to the plate and get your FFL , you'll never wait another 240 or more hours again , provided you maintain it . After you have jumped through all the hoops mandated by the state and feds just to aquire said FFL, not to mention fees and consequences of mistakes by yourself or employees you might realize then why we protect ourselves . As was mentioned its " only " one day but we have more at stake in this deal or tranfer than you. Nobody likes the way the state "plays ball" but we push on and try for better legislation in the future . Do yourself a favor and just read up on what it takes to become an FFL here and maybe you will feel our pain. As responsible gun owners we dont like the 10 day either but its the law and until something changes its what we have to deal with . On a lighter note the extra day of anticipation will make it that much more fun to take out some of your frustration on some good ole Zombie targets. Hope you enjoy your new pistol .
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  #45  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:43 AM
GeneralPattonLivesAgain GeneralPattonLivesAgain is offline
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Thanks for all the replies and opinions. The bottom line is that some FFL's can count to 10 and others can't.....that simple...any excuse to wait 11 days (other than a legal one) is just that, an excuse and poor customer service. I have learned my lesson that not all FFL's go the extra foot (I would say mile, but come on, how hard is it to count to 10), to make available, delivery of firearms to a patriotic, law abiding citizen not one second past the rediculous 10-day waiting period that CA imposes.

The Greatest General of all time - General George S. Patton, Jr has turned over in his grave.
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  #46  
Old 08-23-2012, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by GeneralPattonLivesAgain View Post
Thanks for all the replies and opinions. The bottom line is that some FFL's can count to 10 and others can't.....that simple...any excuse to wait 11 days (other than a legal one) is just that, an excuse and poor customer service. I have learned my lesson that not all FFL's go the extra foot (I would say mile, but come on, how hard is it to count to 10), to make available, delivery of firearms to a patriotic, law abiding citizen not one second past the rediculous 10-day waiting period that CA imposes.

The Greatest General of all time - General George S. Patton, Jr has turned over in his grave.
Another answer is some people show up at the time your DROS is up even if they have an 11 day policy and then they raise a stink and usually the store lets them have it. I kind of like that idea.
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  #47  
Old 08-23-2012, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Not it is not. The dealer fee may not exceed $10. Period. That is it. Any type of storage fees exceeding $10 are illegal. Some dealers might want you to believe otherwise, but the penal code doesn't lie.
The funny thing is that the CA DOJ has said that the FFL can charge storage if the person does not pick it up right after the 10 days. It does not appear to be legal based on the law, but who knows since it does not address the waiting period.
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  #48  
Old 08-23-2012, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The funny thing is that the CA DOJ has said that the FFL can charge storage if the person does not pick it up right after the 10 days.
Get it in writing.
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  #49  
Old 08-23-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by GeneralPattonLivesAgain View Post
There is contract law, which is clearly broken after the 10 24 hour period is over, so I would have to say you are incorrect dachan.
Show me the contract which states that the firearm is to be turned over minutes after the minimum time?

Go to court and see what your damages are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralPattonLivesAgain View Post
The title of the weapon legally changes hands once that 240 hours is up and when I show up to pick it up.
Incorrect, the title only changes when the 4473 is completed. If you show up after 30 days, it is not yours and the DROS has to be re-done.

Quote:
One day, someone will challenge in court the right of an FFL to keep a gun longer than the 240 hours (unless store is closed of course) and I guarantee the customer will prevail.
I doubt it, which means that your guarantee means nothing. I challenge you to sue a FFL and see where it gets you.

If a FFL wants to only deliver firearms on a given day, they can. There is absolutely nothing in the law which says that the FFL has to turn over the firearm the second the waiting period is over. While they should do so, there are reasons which some think are good enough to delay it to the 11th day. That is their choice and your choice is to not use them.
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  #50  
Old 08-23-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by GeneralPattonLivesAgain View Post
You are right Paul0660, it's not worth it, but I do think if this went to court, contract law would win out easily.
The penal code setting the day wait sets the minimum number of days that have to pass before a weapon can be released. Nowhere does it say that at exactly 240 hours after purchase they need to deliver. I bet if you look at the paperwork that you signed, it notes on there the "Earliest pickup date" and the date is based on an 11 day wait (like Big 5 does). How you win using "contract law" when you signed a "contract" agreeing to the terms? Juyst go to places that have a 10 day wait or move to another no (or minimal) waiting state. I don't think you'll find many people on here who think that 11 days is OK, but it is a common practice.
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  #51  
Old 08-23-2012, 1:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
...then a smart FFL would charge you a storage fee...
Quote:
Originally Posted by swifty View Post
That is already legal on PPT's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Not it is not. The dealer fee may not exceed $10. Period. That is it. Any type of storage fees exceeding $10 are illegal. Some dealers might want you to believe otherwise, but the penal code doesn't lie.
"Subsequent to the end of the 10-day waiting period or one business day following the notification of the purchaser that his/her DROS has been released from a DOJ required “hold”, the dealer may charge a storage fee. However, such fees must be clearly posted and may not be misrepresented as any governmental fee."

DOJ Bulletin
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  #52  
Old 08-23-2012, 1:13 PM
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I would say that is in writing, although it still seems to conflict with the PC, but it might be that since the person could pick it up, that is when the limit ends. Clearly if the FFL refused to deliver the firearm, they could not charge storage, since otherwise a FFL could say that they only deliver on day 28 and charge $5/day storage from day 10 to day 28.
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  #53  
Old 08-23-2012, 1:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swifty View Post
"Subsequent to the end of the 10-day waiting period or one business day following the notification of the purchaser that his/her DROS has been released from a DOJ required “hold”, the dealer may charge a storage fee. However, such fees must be clearly posted and may not be misrepresented as any governmental fee."

DOJ Bulletin
Let's see what we can do about that. The penal code is clear.

Quote:
28055. (a) For a sale, loan, or transfer conducted pursuant to this
chapter, the purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the
firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten
dollars ($10) per firearm.
(b) No other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this chapter, except for
the applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 23690
and 28300 and Article 3 (commencing with Section 28200) of Chapter 6
and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set forth in
Section 31650.
(c) The dealer may not charge any additional fees.
(d) Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from
charging a smaller fee.
That memo is in direct violaton of the penal code. Time to get that fixed.
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  #54  
Old 08-23-2012, 1:22 PM
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It might not be a direct violation of the penal code since there is NO additional charge above the $10 for a transfer that is picked up at the end of the waiting period. Pickup on the 10th is the transfer, additional storage is not.

Remember, this is legalese and things are not always what they seem, but the bottom line is that the CA DOJ said that the FFL can charge storage after the waiting period ends. So, if a FFL does this, who do you think it going to do anything about it?
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  #55  
Old 08-23-2012, 1:33 PM
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Without looking up the Sections and Articles, hasn't the dealer already fulfilled his obligation to perform the PPT, plus an additional one business day. The ability to charge a storage fee after the state mandated obligation is fulfilled is appropriate since the fee is not "for" a sale, loan or transfer.

"No other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm..."
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  #56  
Old 08-23-2012, 2:04 PM
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I will quote it again. Be sure to read the whole thing.
Quote:
28055. (a) For a sale, loan, or transfer conducted pursuant to this
chapter, the purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the
firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten
dollars ($10) per firearm.
(b) No other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this chapter, except for
the applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 23690
and 28300 and Article 3 (commencing with Section 28200) of Chapter 6
and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set forth in
Section 31650.
(c) The dealer may not charge any additional fees.
(d) Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from
charging a smaller fee.
Sale, loan or transfer. As we have stated in this very thread, the sale, loan, or transfer is not over until the firearm is picked up. Second, (c) is pretty clear that the dealer may not charge any additional fees. So a storage fee seems to be pretty clearly a fee. Illegal and a direct violation of the penal code.

I appreciate you guys being a devil's advocate, but the penal code is clear in three spots here. The dealer may not charge any additional fees nor over $10. However, you may charge the DROS and you may charge less than $10.
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  #57  
Old 08-23-2012, 2:12 PM
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Read it again, it says that "No other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this chapter". Storage past 10 days is not part of the sale, loan or transfer.

Again, the CA DOJ says that it is ok (personally I would not do it) and they are the ones who would do something about it. If the person sued and the FFL brought in the document from the CA DOJ, I suspect that the FFL would win.
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  #58  
Old 08-23-2012, 3:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Read it again, it says that "No other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this chapter". Storage past 10 days is not part of the sale, loan or transfer.

Again, the CA DOJ says that it is ok (personally I would not do it) and they are the ones who would do something about it. If the person sued and the FFL brought in the document from the CA DOJ, I suspect that the FFL would win.
The "sale, loan or transfer" is not completed until the firearm is TRANSFERED to the buyer. If the buyer waits until day 30 to COMPLETE THE TRANSFER, how can additional fees be charged?
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  #59  
Old 08-23-2012, 3:09 PM
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Because the fee is not for the transfer.

Once laws are passed they are turned over to DOJ for implementation. DOJ is the one that issued the bulletin, the same agency responsible for implementing the law. I'm guessing that this question came up in the past and DOJ answered the question.

Top right hand corner of the bulletin: For further information contact:Firearms Division (916) 227-3703
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  #60  
Old 08-23-2012, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootinXs View Post
To the OP , heres a novel idea . Step up to the plate and get your FFL
Easier said than done. An FFL is only issued to those intending to sell firearms to make a profit. The days of getting your FFL in the mail are over. BATFE conducts a personal interview with the applicant and asks about things like your business plan, marketing strategy, etc. And this ONLY after having talked to your local zoning department to make sure you are in compliance.

What kills me is how the subject of 10/11 days is still discussed so often. Like many have said, just inquire about the policy in place and decide accordingly.
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  #61  
Old 08-23-2012, 3:17 PM
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The law does not say until the transfer is complete. If storage were able to be charged from the start, then it would be part of the transfer.

If the person does not pick up the firearm in 30 days, does that mean that the FFL has to do the transfer again for free? Just the DROS fee?

Argue all you want, but there is the CA DOJ bulletin which you need to fight against. I assume that they have their lawyers look at it, so guess what the view is until you can get a judge to rule on it?
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Old 08-23-2012, 4:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
Easier said than done. An FFL is only issued to those intending to sell firearms to make a profit. The days of getting your FFL in the mail are over. BATFE conducts a personal interview with the applicant and asks about things like your business plan, marketing strategy, etc. And this ONLY after having talked to your local zoning department to make sure you are in compliance.

What kills me is how the subject of 10/11 days is still discussed so often. Like many have said, just inquire about the policy in place and decide accordingly.
Yes , profit is the key word . The IOI's at the time of interview only ask for a projection , percentage . You run your business the way you want , there not looking over your shoulder expecting big sales they are mostly concerned with your record keeping . Part time , full time , tabletop or storefront it may be more difficult but by no means impossible , in fact your local zoning has more to do with your approval than anything . I didnt imply that the OP would do it for personal gain only, but how many of us would not take advantage of being able to get what we want . He just doesnt see it from our point of view. Nothing ventured nothing gained . My license will be here next week and I'm proud to say" I did it ".
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  #63  
Old 08-23-2012, 4:47 PM
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Like I tell my customers when i submit the DROS and show them the time and date it was submitted. YOU MUST WAIT 10 24 HOURS BEFORE YOU CAN GET YOUR FIREARM, NOT A MINUTE EARLIER. But like last night I submitted one at 10pm and I told the customer that I will not release at 10pm but the following day. No Problems!! We know it's a pain in the a s s to wait ten days but FFL's will not risk our licenses and if adding an extra day to prevent mishaps so be it. I am small time and have the privilege to do business any time I want and can control what I do but large business is more difficult to run so the extra day is added. Enjoy your weapon when received and you will forget the extra day......
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  #64  
Old 08-23-2012, 9:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Argue all you want, but there is the CA DOJ bulletin which you need to fight against. I assume that they have their lawyers look at it, so guess what the view is until you can get a judge to rule on it?
And that is exactly what I said I would do. If you think a DOJ memo from 2001 is as good then as it is now, then stop selling OLLs.

The penal code is clear. I will quote it again for you. Be sure to read the whole thing this time and hopefully the third time is the charm.

Quote:
28055. (a) For a sale, loan, or transfer conducted pursuant to this
chapter, the purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the
firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten
dollars ($10) per firearm
.
(b) No other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this chapter
, except for
the applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 23690
and 28300 and Article 3 (commencing with Section 28200) of Chapter 6
and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set forth in
Section 31650.
(c) The dealer may not charge any additional fees.
(d) Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from
charging a smaller fee.
Again, explain to me how your storage fee is not a fee?

Again, I don't really expect you guys to get it. Rocking the boat has never been some people's passion. Customers, just keep paying those fees. The DOJ said so.

Then again I hang out with people like this, so who am I to bow down to the government?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=610881
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  #65  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:06 PM
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OP: Sorry for your troubles at the other store. Here at Golden State Tactical, I'd be glad to let you have you gun at 10 days plus one minute. It lets me provide you with a great customer service experience and it presents me with an opportunity for more space on my shelf for all the other folks that have learned the hard way that some gun shops ain't always the best at understanding the law and following good customer service practices. These folks regularly come to Golden State Tactical to avoid 11 day waits, made up policies that benefit the store and not the customer, poorly trained staff and the "we could care less about you 'cause there's another person in line behind you to take your place" attitude.

Its the reason I exist in Sacramento (same thing happened to me before I became a dealer) and is the reason my great customers do my advertising for me. Word of mouth advertising is free if its good and very expensive if it's bad. Dealers that figure this little tidbit out live here on Calguns (for the most part) and plan on being around for the long run.

Customer service is the name of the game. Curmudgeons and know it alls will never get it until they run out of customers. . . . .Happens to businesses all the time. . . .and they can't figure out why

11 days? sheesh! Lazy dealers!
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  #66  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rbetts View Post
OP: Sorry for your troubles at the other store. Here at Golden State Tactical, I'd be glad to let you have you gun at 10 days plus one minute. It lets me provide you with a great customer service experience and it presents me with an opportunity for more space on my shelf for all the other folks that have learned the hard way that some gun shops ain't always the best at understanding the law and following good customer service practices. These folks [B]regularly come to Golden State Tactical to avoid 11 day waits, made up policies that benefit the store and not the customer, poorly trained staff and the "we could care less about you 'cause there's another person in line behind you to take your place" attitude.

Its the reason I exist in Sacramento (same thing happened to me before I became a dealer) and is the reason my great customers do my advertising for me. Word of mouth advertising is free if its good and very expensive if it's bad. Dealers that figure this little tidbit out live here on Calguns (for the most part) and plan on being around for the long run.

Customer service is the name of the game. Curmudgeons and know it alls will never get it until they run out of customers. . . . .Happens to businesses all the time. . . .and they can't figure out why

11 days? sheesh! Lazy dealers!
That's exactly how we run it in our shop. Seems to work great... customers seem to be happy.
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  #67  
Old 08-24-2012, 8:22 AM
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OniKoroshi OniKoroshi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbetts View Post
OP: Sorry for your troubles at the other store. Here at Golden State Tactical, I'd be glad to let you have you gun at 10 days plus one minute. It lets me provide you with a great customer service experience and it presents me with an opportunity for more space on my shelf for all the other folks that have learned the hard way that some gun shops ain't always the best at understanding the law and following good customer service practices. These folks regularly come to Golden State Tactical to avoid 11 day waits, made up policies that benefit the store and not the customer, poorly trained staff and the "we could care less about you 'cause there's another person in line behind you to take your place" attitude.

Its the reason I exist in Sacramento (same thing happened to me before I became a dealer) and is the reason my great customers do my advertising for me. Word of mouth advertising is free if its good and very expensive if it's bad. Dealers that figure this little tidbit out live here on Calguns (for the most part) and plan on being around for the long run.

Customer service is the name of the game. Curmudgeons and know it alls will never get it until they run out of customers. . . . .Happens to businesses all the time. . . .and they can't figure out why

11 days? sheesh! Lazy dealers!
Speaking of the devil! GST gets my vote!

OP: sorry you bought something from that store. Prices are so high I wonder how they stay in business. TGR charges $36 for a ppt and you have to thumb print every page of the transaction. Wtf?
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  #68  
Old 08-24-2012, 9:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rbetts View Post
OP: Sorry for your troubles at the other store. Here at Golden State Tactical, I'd be glad to let you have you gun at 10 days plus one minute.
According to the OP he will sue you for the "one minute" as the penal code specifically states 10 days. How dare you keep it for another minute!
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