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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 02-28-2011, 10:06 PM
JeffCinSac JeffCinSac is online now
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Default Single shot pistol, DROS, and CCW

Is it evident from a DROS record that a particular pistol was sold via the single shot exemption? My sheriff will not allow any modifications to ccw guns. I am considering a Ruger LCP via the single shot exemption, then converting it back to standard configuration, then listing it on my ccw. But if the DROS record shows as a single shot, then isn't it possible that converting it back to standard configuration would be considered a modification such that I could not list it on my ccw? As a related question, what if I then resold the converted pistol? Would the subsequent DROS still show as a single shot, or just as a regular LCP, because it was in standard configuration at the time of transfer?
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Old 02-28-2011, 10:12 PM
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What county are we speaking of? I'm curious, as there's only a few who have this policy written, and fewer who try to enforce it. I'd love to work on this policy issue.
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Old 02-28-2011, 10:18 PM
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To answer your question, there is no real way for a sheriff to know you DROSed as a single shot. All he could see is the make/model/serial in AFS.

-Gene
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Old 02-28-2011, 10:42 PM
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To wildhawker: Placer.

To hoffmang: thanks. That's what I needed to know. The desk clerk in Placer verifies that the pistol you want to add to your ccw is registered to you before she types up the new permit for the sheriff's signature, and I really didn't want to deal with any drama regarding single shot issues due to the no mods policy.
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Old 03-01-2011, 8:28 AM
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Technically it is not modified. It was modified to become a single shot pistol, so you removed the modification to make it back to factory specs.
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Old 03-01-2011, 8:50 AM
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Supposing a person gets the gun via single shot exemption, converts back to semi with mag capacity and has it put on his CCW and uses it in self defense. Does the sheriff's dept go to the gun store and learn of the change? If so does one's license get pulled?

Granted it's a BS restriction, but is there a price to be paid getting pinched?
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Old 03-01-2011, 9:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
Supposing a person gets the gun via single shot exemption, converts back to semi with mag capacity and has it put on his CCW and uses it in self defense. Does the sheriff's dept go to the gun store and learn of the change? If so does one's license get pulled?
I'm puzzled why that would happen. It's kinda "random"/"wild".

The single-shot pathway was a path to legal ACQUISITION of a non-Rostered handgun. It had nothing to do with CARRY.

That non-Rostered handgun could have also lawfully been acquired via other paths (PPT, inheritance/bequest, lineal intrafamily xfer, sale from an LEO who got tired of it and wanted to sell it, etc.)

The sheriff is apparently glad to issue CCWs for non-Rostered handguns, so that is not an issue. Also, his NOT issuing new CCWs for non-Rostered handguns IS an issue, especially if he has a 'fleet' of CCW issueds out there with non-Rostered handguns - either due to issuance with a non-Rostered handgun on it, or because some fraction of his CCW population had guns that fell off the Roster.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
I'm puzzled why that would happen. It's kinda "random"/"wild".

The single-shot pathway was a path to legal ACQUISITION of a non-Rostered handgun. It had nothing to do with CARRY.

That non-Rostered handgun could have also lawfully been acquired via other paths (inheritance/bequest, lineal intrafamily xfer, sale from an LEO who got tired of it and wanted to sell it, etc.)

The sheriff is apparently glad to issue CCWs for non-Rostered handguns, so that is not an issue. Also, his NOT issuing new CCWs for non-Rostered handguns IS an issue, especially if he has a 'fleet' of CCW issueds out there with non-Rostered handguns - either due to issuance with a non-Rostered handgun on it, or because some fraction of his CCW population had guns that fell off the Roster.
Very good point on the last paragraph, suppose a pistol you own falls off the roster list after 1 year of ownership or longer? All that matters is that the pistol that is being added to the ccw is reg'd to you and that is the way it should be.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:22 AM
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Someone can buy a off roster gun via ppt. So the gun not being on the list is not a problem. Does the dros show someone bought an off roster gun through single shot/ppt?
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Gio View Post
Very good point on the last paragraph, suppose a pistol you own falls off the roster list after 1 year of ownership or longer? All that matters is that the pistol that is being added to the ccw is reg'd to you and that is the way it should be.
Nope, the CCW handgun need not be registered to you.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:32 AM
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Nope, the CCW handgun need not be registered to you.


Good to know
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Old 03-01-2011, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
To answer your question, there is no real way for a sheriff to know you DROSed as a single shot. All he could see is the make/model/serial in AFS.

-Gene
From another thread, it's apparently still an open question exactly what the make/model will be listed as. Should it be a "Ruger LCP," or should it be a "SomeGunCo LCP?" Anyone with real-world experience please chime in. I know many of these LCPs have gone out from PRK, Tracy Rifle and Pistol, Valkyre, etc. How were they DROS'd to you??? Are they marked as anything other than a Ruger LCP?

Here's a scary thought - am I the first fool that wants to actually carry something purchased as a single-shot? Is that a stupid idea?
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Old 03-01-2011, 1:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffCinSac View Post
Here's a scary thought - am I the first fool that wants to actually carry something purchased as a single-shot? Is that a stupid idea?
It's only stupid if you want to carry it as a single-shot.
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Old 03-01-2011, 1:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
I'm puzzled why that would happen. It's kinda "random"/"wild".

The single-shot pathway was a path to legal ACQUISITION of a non-Rostered handgun. It had nothing to do with CARRY.

That non-Rostered handgun could have also lawfully been acquired via other paths (inheritance/bequest, lineal intrafamily xfer, sale from an LEO who got tired of it and wanted to sell it, etc.)

The sheriff is apparently glad to issue CCWs for non-Rostered handguns, so that is not an issue. Also, his NOT issuing new CCWs for non-Rostered handguns IS an issue, especially if he has a 'fleet' of CCW issueds out there with non-Rostered handguns - either due to issuance with a non-Rostered handgun on it, or because some fraction of his CCW population had guns that fell off the Roster.
I agree getting in hot water is a long shot and the law is foolish.

When I read Gene's answer of "no real way to tell" by paperwork I thought "well, is there another way ....?" and the obvious one is if a cop, for some specific reason, went to the store where the gun was bought and checked. Unusual, are they going to make the effort - I don't know.

I guess it's a bit much but if I had the choice of buying a gun "as is" and knowing I'd followed their foolish law to the T, or doing something that may not follow their foolish law to the T and about the only time it will come up (to my detriment) is if I shoot someone - well given my luck on such things I'd follow their foolish law to a T. I have all sorts of worked on guns and reload like crazy but on the "I may shoot someone with this" guns I go stock everything and factory ammo. I figure 6'5", middle aged and doing OK - I'll have enough aggravation to deal with being painted the evil guy in that situation and don't want to deal with "vile unsafe gun importer who broke the sheriff's rules" to kill the poor kid (insert high school photo here) monikor.

Am I being too circumspect?

Last edited by dfletcher; 03-01-2011 at 1:17 PM..
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Old 03-01-2011, 4:28 PM
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Just register it on the CCW and call it a day.
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Old 03-01-2011, 7:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Nope, the CCW handgun need not be registered to you.
In Placer you can only list a gun that is registered to you or your husband/wife. Tried to list a family members gun on my ccw while mine was in for service. It was not allowed.
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Old 03-01-2011, 7:21 PM
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In Placer you can only list a gun that is registered to you or your husband/wife. Tried to list a family members gun on my ccw while mine was in for service. It was not allowed.
I'd love to repeat that test a few times.
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Old 03-01-2011, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
I'd love to repeat that test a few times.
Me too. I was actually quite annoyed since the firearm I wanted to list while my gun was in for service for 6 weeks was my mothers, and it was the same make and model as that which I was sending off.
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Old 01-14-2015, 12:55 PM
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Exclamation Correction: LE *can* see SSE designation - and sometimes *won't* issue CCW

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
To answer your question, there is no real way for a sheriff to know you DROSed as a single shot. All he could see is the make/model/serial in AFS.

-Gene
I know this is an old thread, but just in case someone arrives here while researching the topic, the above is no longer not true. DROS now stores the configuration (including any SSE designation), and provides that information to LE upon request. In addition to the make, model, and serial number, it appears that AFS(?) provides at least the configuration (including the caliber and any SSE designation). Some LEs will not issue CCWs for SSE handguns. See this.

Edit: errors in the above language have been corrected to avoid confusion from my original post.
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Old 01-14-2015, 1:10 PM
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Originally Posted by lugnutwrench View Post
I know this is an old thread, but just in case someone arrives here while researching the topic, the above is no longer true. DROS now stores the configuration (including any SSE designation), and provides that information to LE upon request. Some LEs will not issue CCWs for SSE handguns. See this.
PPT the gun to your wife, brother, friend, etc, then PPT it back. Also SSE 1.0 has ended.
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Old 01-14-2015, 1:15 PM
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PPT the gun to your wife, brother, friend, etc, then PPT it back. Also SSE 1.0 has ended.
That sounds VERY dangerous. Straw transfer issues.
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Old 01-14-2015, 1:17 PM
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That sounds VERY dangerous. Straw transfer issues.
looks to be much safer to pawn or cosign and then 4473 it back to yourself.
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Old 01-14-2015, 1:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lugnutwrench View Post
DROS now stores the configuration (including any SSE designation), and provides that information to LE upon request..
?

1) What part of the DROS stores an "SSE designation"? and what does "now stores" mean? Did something change in the DROS software at some point in time?

Also who provides what information to LE and upon who's request? The AFS records have always been accessible by LE, is there another database you are referring to?

AFAIK unless there is special circumstances (because they request something special from CA DOJ) the only thing the LE agency will see is the AFS record. Not everything the DROS system intakes is printed on an AFS record. I don't think DROS 'notes' are included.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
PPT the gun to your wife, brother, friend, etc, then PPT it back.
I wouldn't recommend this. Primary because it's illegal. The "brother/friend" would not be the actual buyer on the 4473 and would be committing perjury. Perjury is a felony.

Edit: Tincon beat me to the issue here.
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Old 01-14-2015, 1:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
What part of the DROS stores an "SSE" designation? and what does "now stores" mean? Did something change in the DROS software at some point in time?
Sorry...I may have been careless in my terminology. The customer reported that the investigating LEO called her and told her when he researched the firearms she had applied to carry, the LEO was able to see the SSE designation, the caliber, etc. I don't know if this was via AFS or some other system. My only point was that this is no longer true (if it ever was):
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
[T]here is no real way for a sheriff to know you DROSed as a single shot. All he could see is the make/model/serial in AFS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
Also who provides what information to LE and upon who's request? The AFS records have always been accessible by LE, is there another database you are referring to?
Again, my apologies for any confusion. I'm getting this third-hand, so I don't know for sure. All I know is that according to the customer, LE was able to see the details of the transfer, including the fact that it was done as a SSE. Edit: The triggering event that caused LE to perform the inquiry was the customer's application for a CCW on which she listed the SSE handgun as one of those she wanted to carry concealed. LE explained to the customer that LE does not issue CCWs for SSE handguns.

Edit: I have made corrections to my earlier post to avoid confusion. Please let me know if I have misstated anything.
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Old 01-14-2015, 1:31 PM
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... Also SSE 1.0 has ended.
That doesn't change the fact that many SSE handguns are out there and some of their owners may want to apply to carry them concealed. Mine wasn't a comment about SSE purchases. It was about what people can or can't do with them once they have them.
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Old 01-14-2015, 1:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lugnutwrench View Post
Sorry...I may have been careless in my terminology. The customer reported that the investigating LEO called her and told her when he researched the firearms she had applied to carry, the LEO was able to see the SSE designation, the caliber, etc.
Generally one of three things happens:

1) The folks at the issuing agency recognize a non-roster firearm. They ask how the applicant obtained it and it is the applicant who first mentions "single-shot".

2) The caliber listed in the AFS is something other than the intended caliber. (E.g. .25cal or 8888 (multi-cal)). The issuing agency sees this and asks what the deal is and again the applicant goes into the "single-shot" explanation.

3) The barrel length is different in the AFS. Same as above.

I have yet to hear a report of an agency actually being able to tell without any other indicators it was "single-shot". It is possible that the dealer noted in the DROS notes that it was 'single-shot', but AFAIK this information is not printed on an AFS record.

I am basing this off the AFS records request reports one can obtain from the DOJ. Those reports do not appear to obtain a spot for such a note. It is possible that the agency CAN see the DROS notes, but based on my reading of all the CCW/SSE threads no agency has denied an SSE handgun unless one of the above issues were present. (I.e. because they couldn't otherwise tell it was SSE)

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Old 01-14-2015, 1:48 PM
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The problem being that if you are asked by an issuing agency how you obtained a non-roster firearm, lying is not an option.
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Old 01-14-2015, 1:50 PM
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Generally one of three things happens:

...

2) The caliber listed in the AFS is something other than the intended caliber. (E.g. .25cal or 8888 (multi-cal)). The issuing agency sees this and asks what the deal is and again the applicant goes into the "single-shot" explanation.

...

I have yet to hear a report of an agency actually being able to tell without any other indicators it was "single-shot". It is possible that the dealer noted in the DROS notes that it was 'single-shot', but AFAIK this information is not printed on an AFS record.

I am basing this off the AFS records request reports one can obtain from the DOJ. Those reporting do not appear to obtain a spot for such a note. It is possible that the agency CAN see the DROS notes, but based on my reading of all the CCW/SSE threads no agency has denied an SSE handgun unless one of the above issues were present. (I.e. because they couldn't otherwise tell it was SSE)

...

I'm pretty sure it was DROS'd as 8888 (nothing in the "notes" field). However, the customer is emphatic that she did not mention anything about SSE and that LE already had that information when he called her to tell her about the issue. She did mention that LE told her "this single-shot thing is new" for them (whatever that means).
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Old 01-14-2015, 1:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lugnutwrench View Post
I'm pretty sure it was DROS'd as 8888 (nothing in the "notes" field). However, the customer is emphatic that she did not mention anything about SSE and that LE already had that information when he called her to tell her about the issue. She did mention that LE told her "this single-shot thing is new" for them (whatever that means).
That could be the case. A Calguns SSE thread is one of the top results when you google terms relating to "8888" and "handgun" and "Roster". I didn't anyone think at an LE agency would bother doing searches for an applicant's handgun, but it is possible.

In any event, I would find out if getting the AFS entry changed would fix this issue for your customer. At this point the LE agency may view this as some "illegal handgun" and may refuse to list it on her CCW even if the caliber if updated.

Might be a fixable issue if a gun-centric attorney gets involved.

Edit: Also, for knowledge purposes. What county agency is the customer applying to?
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Old 01-14-2015, 2:43 PM
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This seems to belong, now, in the CCW forum. As a 2011 thread, it pre-dated the latest forum arrangement.
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Old 01-14-2015, 4:45 PM
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Default Single shot pistol, DROS, and CCW

Quote:
Originally Posted by lugnutwrench View Post
Sorry...I may have been careless in my terminology. The customer reported that the investigating LEO called her and told her when he researched the firearms she had applied to carry, the LEO was able to see the SSE designation, the caliber, etc. I don't know if this was via AFS or some other system. My only point was that this is no longer true (if it ever was):


Again, my apologies for any confusion. I'm getting this third-hand, so I don't know for sure. All I know is that according to the customer, LE was able to see the details of the transfer, including the fact that it was done as a SSE. Edit: The triggering event that caused LE to perform the inquiry was the customer's application for a CCW on which she listed the SSE handgun as one of those she wanted to carry concealed. LE explained to the customer that LE does not issue CCWs for SSE handguns.

Edit: I have made corrections to my earlier post to avoid confusion. Please let me know if I have misstated anything.

The IA is able to see that the gun is listed in two calibers: what it manufacturerd as and what it was SSE'D as. For instance, my LCP shows as .25 and 9mm.

There's a number of threads out there regard the matter. OP just happened to post a few years ago.
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Old 01-14-2015, 4:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
The IA is able to see that the gun is listed in two calibers: what it manufacturerd as and what it was SSE'D as. For instance, my LCP shows as .25 and 9mm.
Do you have any evidence that the IA can see "what it was manufactured as"? I have not heard that before. What would they even base that information off? Model numbers? Seems like too much manual entry and high likelihood of errors.

Also the LCP isn't 9mm.
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Old 01-14-2015, 4:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
Do you have any evidence that the IA can see "what it was manufactured as"? I have not heard that before. Also the LCP isn't 9mm.

I'm guessing the can see what it was DROS'D as? My IA knew my LCP was a 380 and at one time .25. They're seeing somehow; plenty of people here reporting they can't list SSE's on their CCW.

My bad .380.
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Old 01-15-2015, 1:09 PM
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My IA just denied me last week for a pistol purchased on SSE. They were very insistent that the caliber Dros'd had to match the current configuration. they also said that no matter what I do i cannot change the record that states it was dros'd as a .25 caliber. They gave me the solution that if I brought in a working .25 caliber barrel inserted into the pistol then she would list it and what I did with it after was none of there concern. They even went as far as to say that if I also brought in the 9 MM barrel then she would list it on my LTC as "Multi Caliber". I am really confused as to how any of this matters if the firearm is purchased legally within the state. There are plenty of handguns that can be easily converted to other Calibers.
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Old 01-15-2015, 4:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Nope, the CCW handgun need not be registered to you.
That is absolutely incorrect for Orange County. I had to pay the $19 fee and register one of my guns in order to put it on my permit. I actually got an email asking me to verify the serial number as they could not see it registered to me.
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Old 01-15-2015, 11:51 PM
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I was going to create a thread related to SSE/DROS myself, but this thread seems to already be covering this topic, so I will post it here.

Last weekend, I purchased my first new handgun in California in over 10 years. While chatting with the salesman about the various 2A litigation currently underway in the state, the subject of SSE came up. The salesman said that during the SSE frenzy, he was cautioning people that if a former SSE handgun reconverted back to semi-automatic was used in a home defense situation that it could potentially be "used negatively against you" because the firearm was modified from its original DROS configuration.

I'm not a lawyer and I don't pretend to be one, but I could certainly visualize a prosecutor or a plaintiff attorney in a civil case inflaming a jury with rhetoric to portray someone as a "gun nut who used a loophole to skirt the law designed to keep unsafe weapons out of California". After all, rhetoric is far more impactful than the truth when it comes to the firearms laws in this state.

Not having purchased a firearm in 10 years, I assumed that that the store/salesmen who fill out DROS paperwork on a daily basis know what information is provided to the state. But I don't know, and this thread makes me even more certain that I don't know what I don't know.

But my question is, if I were to purchase an off-roster handgun that went through the SSE process and was converted back to it's original configuration after the original sale, would the new DROS from the resale indicate that the firearm was originally SSEd? Additionally, if the new DROS does not indicate this, is that moot because the serial number can still be traced back to the original purchaser/DROS information?

B
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Old 01-16-2015, 6:32 PM
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If you are really concerned about hypothetical litigation, you should set aside funds for legal defense, obtain one of the various self-defense insurance policies available and add Michel & Associates or Jason Davis to your speed-dial. Or, you could just use a firearm that was not obtained via SSE as your home defense weapon.

You have to ask yourself though, why does this matter at all if you have lived through a violent assault in your home, no prosecutor should be able to paint you in a negative light considering you protected your home.

Since your question is not CCW-related, you may have better luck in the "How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me" Forum.
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Old 01-16-2015, 7:26 PM
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I listed my p938 which was drosed as sse in .25 single shot. When I went in for my interview the officer asked what caliber it was. I said 9mm he said it is listed as .25. I mentioned sse, and ok I thought so very cool little gun perfect for ccw. This was at ocsd.
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