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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California |
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#1
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Is it evident from a DROS record that a particular pistol was sold via the single shot exemption? My sheriff will not allow any modifications to ccw guns. I am considering a Ruger LCP via the single shot exemption, then converting it back to standard configuration, then listing it on my ccw. But if the DROS record shows as a single shot, then isn't it possible that converting it back to standard configuration would be considered a modification such that I could not list it on my ccw? As a related question, what if I then resold the converted pistol? Would the subsequent DROS still show as a single shot, or just as a regular LCP, because it was in standard configuration at the time of transfer?
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#2
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What county are we speaking of? I'm curious, as there's only a few who have this policy written, and fewer who try to enforce it. I'd love to work on this policy issue.
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Brandon Combs I do not read private messages, and my inbox is usually full. If you need to reach me, please email me instead. My comments are not the official position or a statement of any organization unless stated otherwise. My comments are not legal advice; if you want or need legal advice, hire a lawyer. |
#3
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To answer your question, there is no real way for a sheriff to know you DROSed as a single shot. All he could see is the make/model/serial in AFS.
-Gene
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Gene Hoffman Chairman, The Calguns Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @CalgunsFdn on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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#4
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To wildhawker: Placer.
To hoffmang: thanks. That's what I needed to know. The desk clerk in Placer verifies that the pistol you want to add to your ccw is registered to you before she types up the new permit for the sheriff's signature, and I really didn't want to deal with any drama regarding single shot issues due to the no mods policy. |
#6
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Supposing a person gets the gun via single shot exemption, converts back to semi with mag capacity and has it put on his CCW and uses it in self defense. Does the sheriff's dept go to the gun store and learn of the change? If so does one's license get pulled?
Granted it's a BS restriction, but is there a price to be paid getting pinched? |
#7
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The single-shot pathway was a path to legal ACQUISITION of a non-Rostered handgun. It had nothing to do with CARRY. That non-Rostered handgun could have also lawfully been acquired via other paths (PPT, inheritance/bequest, lineal intrafamily xfer, sale from an LEO who got tired of it and wanted to sell it, etc.) The sheriff is apparently glad to issue CCWs for non-Rostered handguns, so that is not an issue. Also, his NOT issuing new CCWs for non-Rostered handguns IS an issue, especially if he has a 'fleet' of CCW issueds out there with non-Rostered handguns - either due to issuance with a non-Rostered handgun on it, or because some fraction of his CCW population had guns that fell off the Roster.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
![]() No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Last edited by bwiese; 03-01-2011 at 8:14 PM.. |
#8
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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ |
#10
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Nope, the CCW handgun need not be registered to you.
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Brandon Combs I do not read private messages, and my inbox is usually full. If you need to reach me, please email me instead. My comments are not the official position or a statement of any organization unless stated otherwise. My comments are not legal advice; if you want or need legal advice, hire a lawyer. |
#12
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Here's a scary thought - am I the first fool that wants to actually carry something purchased as a single-shot? Is that a stupid idea? |
#13
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It's only stupid if you want to carry it as a single-shot.
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Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. -- L. Neil Smith ![]() ![]() |
#14
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When I read Gene's answer of "no real way to tell" by paperwork I thought "well, is there another way ....?" and the obvious one is if a cop, for some specific reason, went to the store where the gun was bought and checked. Unusual, are they going to make the effort - I don't know. I guess it's a bit much but if I had the choice of buying a gun "as is" and knowing I'd followed their foolish law to the T, or doing something that may not follow their foolish law to the T and about the only time it will come up (to my detriment) is if I shoot someone - well given my luck on such things I'd follow their foolish law to a T. I have all sorts of worked on guns and reload like crazy but on the "I may shoot someone with this" guns I go stock everything and factory ammo. I figure 6'5", middle aged and doing OK - I'll have enough aggravation to deal with being painted the evil guy in that situation and don't want to deal with "vile unsafe gun importer who broke the sheriff's rules" to kill the poor kid (insert high school photo here) monikor. Am I being too circumspect? ![]() Last edited by dfletcher; 03-01-2011 at 1:17 PM.. |
#16
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In Placer you can only list a gun that is registered to you or your husband/wife. Tried to list a family members gun on my ccw while mine was in for service. It was not allowed.
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#17
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I'd love to repeat that test a few times.
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Brandon Combs I do not read private messages, and my inbox is usually full. If you need to reach me, please email me instead. My comments are not the official position or a statement of any organization unless stated otherwise. My comments are not legal advice; if you want or need legal advice, hire a lawyer. |
#18
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Me too. I was actually quite annoyed since the firearm I wanted to list while my gun was in for service for 6 weeks was my mothers, and it was the same make and model as that which I was sending off.
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#19
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Edit: errors in the above language have been corrected to avoid confusion from my original post.
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That's just my $1.05. Last edited by lugnutwrench; 01-14-2015 at 1:40 PM.. Reason: Clarification |
#20
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#21
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That sounds VERY dangerous. Straw transfer issues.
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My posts may contain general information related to the law, however, THEY ARE NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND I AM NOT A LAWYER. I recommend you consult a lawyer if you want legal advice. No attorney-client or confidential relationship exists or will be formed between myself and any other person on the basis of these posts. Pronouns I may use (such as "you" and "your") do NOT refer to any particular person under any circumstance. |
#22
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looks to be much safer to pawn or cosign and then 4473 it back to yourself.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#23
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1) What part of the DROS stores an "SSE designation"? and what does "now stores" mean? Did something change in the DROS software at some point in time? Also who provides what information to LE and upon who's request? The AFS records have always been accessible by LE, is there another database you are referring to? AFAIK unless there is special circumstances (because they request something special from CA DOJ) the only thing the LE agency will see is the AFS record. Not everything the DROS system intakes is printed on an AFS record. I don't think DROS 'notes' are included. Quote:
Edit: Tincon beat me to the issue here.
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You think you know, but you have no idea. The information posted here is not legal advice. If you seek legal advice hire an attorney who is familiar with all the facts of your case. Last edited by lorax3; 01-14-2015 at 1:23 PM.. |
#24
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Edit: I have made corrections to my earlier post to avoid confusion. Please let me know if I have misstated anything.
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That's just my $1.05. Last edited by lugnutwrench; 01-14-2015 at 1:37 PM.. |
#25
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That doesn't change the fact that many SSE handguns are out there and some of their owners may want to apply to carry them concealed. Mine wasn't a comment about SSE purchases. It was about what people can or can't do with them once they have them.
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That's just my $1.05. |
#26
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1) The folks at the issuing agency recognize a non-roster firearm. They ask how the applicant obtained it and it is the applicant who first mentions "single-shot". 2) The caliber listed in the AFS is something other than the intended caliber. (E.g. .25cal or 8888 (multi-cal)). The issuing agency sees this and asks what the deal is and again the applicant goes into the "single-shot" explanation. 3) The barrel length is different in the AFS. Same as above. I have yet to hear a report of an agency actually being able to tell without any other indicators it was "single-shot". It is possible that the dealer noted in the DROS notes that it was 'single-shot', but AFAIK this information is not printed on an AFS record. I am basing this off the AFS records request reports one can obtain from the DOJ. Those reports do not appear to obtain a spot for such a note. It is possible that the agency CAN see the DROS notes, but based on my reading of all the CCW/SSE threads no agency has denied an SSE handgun unless one of the above issues were present. (I.e. because they couldn't otherwise tell it was SSE) ![]()
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You think you know, but you have no idea. The information posted here is not legal advice. If you seek legal advice hire an attorney who is familiar with all the facts of your case. |
#27
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The problem being that if you are asked by an issuing agency how you obtained a non-roster firearm, lying is not an option.
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The Rifle on the Wall "“[S]cientific proof” of both gun-rights and gun-control theories “is very hard to get”; therefore, requiring “some substantial scientific proof to show that a [firearm] law will indeed substantially reduce crime and injury” is tantamount to applying strict scrutiny to, and almost certainly will lead to invalidation of, the law." - Kamela Harris Lawyers and their Stockholm Syndrome |
#28
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I'm pretty sure it was DROS'd as 8888 (nothing in the "notes" field). However, the customer is emphatic that she did not mention anything about SSE and that LE already had that information when he called her to tell her about the issue. She did mention that LE told her "this single-shot thing is new" for them (whatever that means).
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That's just my $1.05. |
#29
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In any event, I would find out if getting the AFS entry changed would fix this issue for your customer. At this point the LE agency may view this as some "illegal handgun" and may refuse to list it on her CCW even if the caliber if updated. Might be a fixable issue if a gun-centric attorney gets involved. Edit: Also, for knowledge purposes. What county agency is the customer applying to?
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You think you know, but you have no idea. The information posted here is not legal advice. If you seek legal advice hire an attorney who is familiar with all the facts of your case. Last edited by lorax3; 01-14-2015 at 2:00 PM.. |
#30
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This seems to belong, now, in the CCW forum. As a 2011 thread, it pre-dated the latest forum arrangement.
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[Carol Ann voice]The Legislature is baaa-ack .... [/Carol Ann voice] There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners. The details only count after the Governor signs the bills. Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. ![]() |
#31
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The IA is able to see that the gun is listed in two calibers: what it manufacturerd as and what it was SSE'D as. For instance, my LCP shows as .25 and 9mm. There's a number of threads out there regard the matter. OP just happened to post a few years ago. |
#32
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Also the LCP isn't 9mm.
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You think you know, but you have no idea. The information posted here is not legal advice. If you seek legal advice hire an attorney who is familiar with all the facts of your case. Last edited by lorax3; 01-14-2015 at 4:57 PM.. |
#33
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I'm guessing the can see what it was DROS'D as? My IA knew my LCP was a 380 and at one time .25. They're seeing somehow; plenty of people here reporting they can't list SSE's on their CCW. My bad .380. |
#34
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My IA just denied me last week for a pistol purchased on SSE. They were very insistent that the caliber Dros'd had to match the current configuration. they also said that no matter what I do i cannot change the record that states it was dros'd as a .25 caliber. They gave me the solution that if I brought in a working .25 caliber barrel inserted into the pistol then she would list it and what I did with it after was none of there concern. They even went as far as to say that if I also brought in the 9 MM barrel then she would list it on my LTC as "Multi Caliber". I am really confused as to how any of this matters if the firearm is purchased legally within the state. There are plenty of handguns that can be easily converted to other Calibers.
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#35
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That is absolutely incorrect for Orange County. I had to pay the $19 fee and register one of my guns in order to put it on my permit. I actually got an email asking me to verify the serial number as they could not see it registered to me.
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#36
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I was going to create a thread related to SSE/DROS myself, but this thread seems to already be covering this topic, so I will post it here.
Last weekend, I purchased my first new handgun in California in over 10 years. While chatting with the salesman about the various 2A litigation currently underway in the state, the subject of SSE came up. The salesman said that during the SSE frenzy, he was cautioning people that if a former SSE handgun reconverted back to semi-automatic was used in a home defense situation that it could potentially be "used negatively against you" because the firearm was modified from its original DROS configuration. I'm not a lawyer and I don't pretend to be one, but I could certainly visualize a prosecutor or a plaintiff attorney in a civil case inflaming a jury with rhetoric to portray someone as a "gun nut who used a loophole to skirt the law designed to keep unsafe weapons out of California". After all, rhetoric is far more impactful than the truth when it comes to the firearms laws in this state. Not having purchased a firearm in 10 years, I assumed that that the store/salesmen who fill out DROS paperwork on a daily basis know what information is provided to the state. But I don't know, and this thread makes me even more certain that I don't know what I don't know. But my question is, if I were to purchase an off-roster handgun that went through the SSE process and was converted back to it's original configuration after the original sale, would the new DROS from the resale indicate that the firearm was originally SSEd? Additionally, if the new DROS does not indicate this, is that moot because the serial number can still be traced back to the original purchaser/DROS information? B |
#37
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If you are really concerned about hypothetical litigation, you should set aside funds for legal defense, obtain one of the various self-defense insurance policies available and add Michel & Associates or Jason Davis to your speed-dial. Or, you could just use a firearm that was not obtained via SSE as your home defense weapon.
You have to ask yourself though, why does this matter at all if you have lived through a violent assault in your home, no prosecutor should be able to paint you in a negative light considering you protected your home. Since your question is not CCW-related, you may have better luck in the "How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me" Forum.
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#38
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I listed my p938 which was drosed as sse in .25 single shot. When I went in for my interview the officer asked what caliber it was. I said 9mm he said it is listed as .25. I mentioned sse, and ok I thought so very cool little gun perfect for ccw. This was at ocsd.
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