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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 12-06-2017, 11:58 AM
DonaldBabbett DonaldBabbett is offline
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Exclamation latest from Gun Owners of America: Fix NICS

GOA will not advocate for a bill enforcing gun control


Yesterday, the House Rules Committee voted to combine the reciprocity and anti-gun "Fix NICS" bills (H.R. 38 and H.R. 4477).

The combined bill now goes to the House floor, with votes scheduled for today.

Because of the united push from gun control groups, the NRA and many House Republicans, the "Fix NICS" portion has an OVERWHELMING majority in the House.

Not only that, a stand-alone "Fix NICS" bill has an OVERWHELMING majority in the Senate. This is further evidenced by the fact that Republican Senate leaders Mitch McConnell and John Cornyn -- along with Democrat leaders Chuck Schumer and Chris Murphy -- are all cosponsors and strongly supporting Fix NICS (S. 2135).

So the result of passing the NICS bill apart from reciprocity would be for gun control to be fast-tracked to President Trump's desk, while reciprocity died under a Schumer-led filibuster.

Interestingly, Senators Cornyn and Murphy did NOT want a combined bill because they want to send Fix NICS legislation to the President.

Senator John Cornyn was quoted in the Daily Caller as saying:

We have good bipartisan support for [Fix NICS]. It's really important and it will save lives, but if we start trying to add other things to it [like concealed carry reciprocity], then I think we risk not doing anything which has sort of been the fate of a lot of the legislation we've tried in the past. So, I'd like to do the fix NICS and then we can move on from there.

Anti-gunners Oppose Combining the Two Bills

Senator Cornyn was not alone in wanting to keep the bills separate.

Democrat Senator Chris Murphy (CT) said that this combined bill would be D.O.A. in the Senate, as he considers concealed carry reciprocity a poison pill. And he was quoted in The Washington Post as saying that the combining of the two measures "is to risk nothing happening."

Prominent anti-gunners in the House also oppose combining the two bills.

When appearing before the House Rules Committee yesterday, Democrat Representatives Jerry Nadler (NY) and Sheila Jackson Lee (TX) argued against combining reciprocity and Fix NICS.

Also appearing before the committee, Rep. Dina Titus (D-NV) complained that including concealed carry reciprocity in the bill was a "poison pill" that would kill the Fix NICS legislation. She announced that she wanted to offer an amendment to strike the concealed carry reciprocity language -- a request which was denied by the committee.

Outside of Congress, Moms Demand Action does NOT want a combined bill because they want a Fix NICS bill without reciprocity. You can see their tweet here.

Same with Bloomberg's Everytown, which opposes combining the two bills.

What all these anti-gun legislators and groups realize is that merging the two bills would be the best way to kill the Fix NICS legislation.

Unfortunately, because of a few Red State Democrats, we don't have the votes right now to overcome a Schumer filibuster of the reciprocity bill in the Senate.

And that means that the most likely outcome of two separate bills moving through the House would be for the NICS bill to ultimately get signed into law while reciprocity dies.

Now that the House Rules Committee has combined the two provisions, GOA is not advocating for the bill, because we don't want to pass a bill to make an unconstitutional system deny additional law-abiding citizens from exercising their rights.

(You can view our earlier alert here to see why the Fix NICS bill could better be termed a "Traffic Ticket Gun Ban.")

Having said this, gun owners should realize the silver lining that has emerged. The combined bill has tremendously frustrated the anti-gun Left, because now they fear the NICS bill is dead -- if the House passes the bill today.

What Happens Now?

So, the two provisions (both good and bad) have now been joined together in H.R. 38. The House is scheduled to vote on the combined bill today.

Gun owners will assuredly want to know: What happens next?

Well, if the House does pass Fix NICS with reciprocity, then the Senate will most likely kill the background check language because, as we stated above, leading Republicans and Democrats do NOT want the bills combined.

As recently as yesterday, Senator Chris Murphy said that such a combined bill would be dead on arrival in the Senate.

Of course, the Senate could attempt to strip the reciprocity portion of the bill and send only gun control back to the House. But having just passed reciprocity, the tables would be turned and a vote to pass Fix NICS as a stand-alone bill in the House at that point would be considered a vote to kill reciprocity -- putting our side in a much stronger position to vote it down.

What happens if the House defeats the combined bill? If Senator Cornyn has his way, the Senate will quickly try to send a Fix NICS-only bill to the House.

Will the Senate Move Quickly to Pass Fix NICS?

When asked by The Daily Caller if Sen. Cornyn preferred to wait until the next Congress to pass concealed carry reciprocity, Cornyn replied,

Well I want to get this background check problem fixed as soon as possible, hopefully even this week here in the Senate. And I don't want to do anything [such as reciprocity] to bog down our ability to get that done. I do think at some point we should take up constitutional carry, because I think it's important but combining them, I think, is to risk nothing happening.

If the Senate were to pass a stand-alone NICS bill, the House would most likely agree to it and send the legislation to President Trump.

So if the House defeats the bill today, we will have to expend a herculean effort in trying to kill the Traffic Ticket Gun Ban.

And we will be calling on all our members to bombard their legislators in opposition to a bill that (sadly) has tremendous support in Congress.

Things are happening quickly.

Please stay tuned for more details as they become available.

In Liberty,

Erich Pratt
Executive Director,
Gun Owners of America
https://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/home?0
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  #2  
Old 12-06-2017, 12:09 PM
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So the logic here is:

1) Fix NICS has broad bipartisan support
2) Fix NICS would likely pass both House and Senate if separated
3) National CCW Reciprocity would NOT pass the Senate if separated
4) Combining the two will increase chances of passing the Senate

*Perform mental gymnastics*

5) We shouldn't support this
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  #3  
Old 12-06-2017, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by doyouevenchop View Post
So the logic here is:

1) Fix NICS has broad bipartisan support
2) Fix NICS would likely pass both House and Senate if separated
3) National CCW Reciprocity would NOT pass the Senate if separated
4) Combining the two will increase chances of passing the Senate

*Perform mental gymnastics*

5) We shouldn't support this
Too... much.... logic!

Take note of the GOA's "Traffic Ticket Gun Ban" quote. Been debunked here on this forum, but the fake GOA continues to spread fake news!

Why do you think the GOA doesn't want this to work?

Perhaps because they are not the NRA getting the work done. They have little clue of what politics really takes.... OR more nefariously, maybe GOA is actually a leftist front that simply opposes everything to make sure we cannot regain any of our freedoms no matter what... Is it ignorant or evil, I don't know...
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:34 PM
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Exactly. It's pretty impressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doyouevenchop View Post
So the logic here is:

1) Fix NICS has broad bipartisan support
2) Fix NICS would likely pass both House and Senate if separated
3) National CCW Reciprocity would NOT pass the Senate if separated
4) Combining the two will increase chances of passing the Senate

*Perform mental gymnastics*

5) We shouldn't support this
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  #5  
Old 12-06-2017, 12:35 PM
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NRA Blasts Misleading Claims Made About Gun Background Check Bill Ahead of House Vote
'Their talking points are nothing but lies'

http://freebeacon.com/issues/nra-bla...ad-house-vote/

Quote:
The Fix NICS Act was combined with the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 on Tuesday ahead of an expected vote on the House floor Wednesday. The Fix NICS provisions now contained in the combined bill establish incentives for states and federal agencies to better comply with current law on reporting disqualifying criminal and mental health records to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). They also include punishments, such as stripping bonuses from political appointees, for states and agencies that don't fully comply.

Some pro-gun groups have opposed the bill claiming it expands the background check system. The text of the bill shows, however, that it does not expand the classifications of who is considered prohibited from owning or possessing firearms, nor does it expand the kinds of criminal or mental health records required to be submitted to the system. The bill also doesn't expand which agencies are required to report records to NICS.
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  #6  
Old 12-06-2017, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doyouevenchop View Post
So the logic here is:

1) Fix NICS has broad bipartisan support
2) Fix NICS would likely pass both House and Senate if separated
3) National CCW Reciprocity would NOT pass the Senate if separated
4) Combining the two will increase chances of passing the Senate

*Perform mental gymnastics*

5) We shouldn't support this
Exactly. I don't see the logic in "waiting". And I don't see the "traffic ticket" part of the legislation.

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Old 12-06-2017, 12:48 PM
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At least Fix NICS and national reciprocity are about the same topic. Meanwhile the House Dems want a DACA fix tied to tax reform, where there is no nexus. Of course the tax “reform” bill includes oil exploration in Alaska, again no nexus. What a F’’’d government we have.




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  #8  
Old 12-06-2017, 5:10 PM
DirtyLaundry DirtyLaundry is offline
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After reading the Fix NICS bill three times now looking for text that would back GOA's claims and reason for not supporting this bill. I simply do not see it.

It seems like GOA didn't even read the bill and their main (and seemingly sole) problem with it is that Feinstein et al are co-sponsors.

If GOA or the OP could cite the text of the bill that they purport does what they say it does, it would be much more helpful in validating their claims. Absent of that this rubbish should be dismissed as FUD because as far as I can see, no such text exists in the bill.

As others have said: separated, Fix NICS will be passed into law due to broad bipartisan support. National reciprocity on it's own likely will not pass or will have a very hard time passing in the senate.
These bills combined only increases only serves to increase the chances of National Reciprocity being passed in the senate and only serves to REDUCE the chances of the Fix NICS being passed.

If GOA's goals are to increase the likelihood of National Reciprocity being passed and reduce the likelihood of Fix NICS being passed. These bills being combined does both of those things at the same time.
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Old 12-06-2017, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DirtyLaundry View Post
After reading the Fix NICS bill three times now looking for text that would back GOA's claims and reason for not supporting this bill. I simply do not see it.

It seems like GOA didn't even read the bill and their main (and seemingly sole) problem with it is that Feinstein et al are co-sponsors.

If GOA or the OP could cite the text of the bill that they purport does what they say it does, it would be much more helpful in validating their claims. Absent of that this rubbish should be dismissed as FUD because as far as I can see, no such text exists in the bill.

As others have said: separated, Fix NICS will be passed into law due to broad bipartisan support. National reciprocity on it's own likely will not pass or will have a very hard time passing in the senate.
These bills combined only increases only serves to increase the chances of National Reciprocity being passed in the senate and only serves to REDUCE the chances of the Fix NICS being passed.

If GOA's goals are to increase the likelihood of National Reciprocity being passed and reduce the likelihood of Fix NICS being passed. These bills being combined does both of those things at the same time.

Ain't gonna happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonaldBabbett View Post
The reason I am a member of Gun Owners of America is because they are supposed to do all that legal legwork themselves with the membership dues members pay them.

Many of us are too busy or don't have the time to read the fine print on every new Bill that comes along. Some of us American gun owners have spend our time working for a living so we can pay our own BILLS, speaking of Bills. I am no lawyer and couldn't make heads or tails on reading most of this legislation anyway. It is often complex and confusing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonaldBabbett View Post
I don't DROP a NOTE to my Congressman. No, every time Gun Owners of America sends me a legislative email alert, they send me a link to my congressmen or senators. The on-line form is already filed out by Gun Owners of America. I fill in the personal information with Last Pass and hit Submit. I add nothing or take away nothing to what I send my elected officials. Gun Owners of America does all the talking, I just sign my name and submit.

I just follow the links GOA gives me. I do exactly what GOA tells me to do. No more, no less.

When GOA talks, I listen. I have blind faith in GOA. I don't dare question anything they say.

I believe in Gun Owners of America. They have never done me wrong or steered me astray.

I am sure GOA has smart and savvy private lawyers who carefully review the pre-drafted letters that members receive links to via email
for signing and submission to make sure we don't come across in Washington as a bunch of clown idiots.

But you don't have to even be a member to send GOA-written letters to Washington. Whenever I provide a GOA "take-action" link here, only YOU
can decide whether to go there or not. You are all big boys. I am not twisting anybody's arm.

Firearms Policy Coalition also sends me alerts. I follow their links and do the same as well. The FPC take-action letters are also pre-drafted for signing and submission on line.
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Old 12-06-2017, 6:58 PM
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Speaking of a "fix", I'd suggest fixing GOA.
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Old 12-06-2017, 7:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonaldBabbett View Post
I do exactly what GOA tells me to do. No more, no less.
I have blind faith in GOA. I don't dare question anything they say.
Ain't gonna happen.
Now that's a damning quote if I ever saw one. Disturbing that anyone could feel this way about anything (short of a higher power, for the spiritually inclined).

We're not going to win any gun rights/control debates with blind obedience or feelings - that's the purview of the left
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Old 12-06-2017, 8:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyLaundry View Post
After reading the Fix NICS bill three times now looking for text that would back GOA's claims and reason for not supporting this bill. I simply do not see it.

It seems like GOA didn't even read the bill and their main (and seemingly sole) problem with it is that Feinstein et al are co-sponsors.

If GOA or the OP could cite the text of the bill that they purport does what they say it does, it would be much more helpful in validating their claims. Absent of that this rubbish should be dismissed as FUD because as far as I can see, no such text exists in the bill.

As others have said: separated, Fix NICS will be passed into law due to broad bipartisan support. National reciprocity on it's own likely will not pass or will have a very hard time passing in the senate.
These bills combined only increases only serves to increase the chances of National Reciprocity being passed in the senate and only serves to REDUCE the chances of the Fix NICS being passed.

If GOA's goals are to increase the likelihood of National Reciprocity being passed and reduce the likelihood of Fix NICS being passed. These bills being combined does both of those things at the same time.
Fake news at it's best homie. GOA took classes from some of the best in how to subvert the truth. Does harm to our cause pretty consistently by presenting "alternative facts" and makes us look like we are illiterate and unable to understand what is right in front of us.

Last edited by rootuser; 12-06-2017 at 8:27 PM..
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:37 AM
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Lets be honest, what we see here is 2nd A fanatics (for lack of a better word) more than willing to put the passage of nationwide concealed carry at risk because they don't want a more efficient background reporting system. The NICS bill doesn't add one single category to the list of what makes one a prohibited person or add any requirements for expanding as to when background checks are necessary. All it does is attempts to make the existing system more efficient.
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Old 12-07-2017, 5:00 AM
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Yep include 5150 and MJ card holders. Also DV like the shooter in NoCal.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:03 PM
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Fix NICS will make America like California.
Loo to your senators support for NICS fix.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttoLoader View Post
Fix NICS will make America like California.
Loo to your senators support for NICS fix.
Are you kidding? This has been debunked half a dozen times here. Stop being a mindless copier and read the damn bill.
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Old 12-07-2017, 1:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttoLoader View Post
Fix NICS will make America like California.
Loo to your senators support for NICS fix.
So quote the section of the bill that will do this.
The simple fact is that you can't because it doesn't exist.
So now explain why you are spreading lies and are willing to sabotage any chances of National Reciprocity from becoming law.
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Old 12-07-2017, 2:00 PM
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No doubt the reciprocal rights bill is less than perfect. But can't we agree its better to start the ball rolling in our favor; its kind of like a moon shot. Once we get a taste of it - we can add to it. If those who don't like it on our side of gun rights kill it - we will likely never see (in my life time) a pro gun act ever.
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Old 12-07-2017, 2:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Lets be honest, what we see here is 2nd A fanatics (for lack of a better word) more than willing to put the passage of nationwide concealed carry at risk because they don't want a more efficient background reporting system. The NICS bill doesn't add one single category to the list of what makes one a prohibited person or add any requirements for expanding as to when background checks are necessary. All it does is attempts to make the existing system more efficient.
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Old 12-07-2017, 3:53 PM
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America will become like CA because big budget to add more prohibited persons based upon CA like state laws. You CAs have restraining order ammo bans etc all sorts of disqualifiers don't forget medical issues. WA is following right along. You will have even more funds thrown at you.
Instead of enabling more ban and prohibits how about budgeting and appropriating funds to clear improperly prohibited persons add to NICs?
I fought your anti legislators from 92 to 2006. I know their MO.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 12-07-2017 at 3:55 PM..
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Old 12-07-2017, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by OttoLoader View Post
America will become like CA because big budget to add more prohibited persons based upon CA like state laws. You CAs have restraining order ammo bans etc all sorts of disqualifiers don't forget medical issues. WA is following right along. You will have even more funds thrown at you.
Instead of enabling more ban and prohibits how about budgeting and appropriating funds to clear improperly prohibited persons add to NICs?
I fought your anti legislators from 92 to 2006. I know their MO.
Please include reference to anything you're talking about as shown in the legislation. I'll wait.

As you know there are TON of false denials every year because the NICS system is broken. I know that you want those to continue because you have yet to provide a single citation of how federal law around what goes in to NICS changes. I will bet you can't do it. Fake news dude.

P.S. I'm still waiting for the anti-fa uprising and the blue hats landing on the beaches from the ships parked just off shore....
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Old 12-07-2017, 4:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttoLoader View Post
America will become like CA because big budget to add more prohibited persons based upon CA like state laws. You CAs have restraining order ammo bans etc all sorts of disqualifiers don't forget medical issues. WA is following right along. You will have even more funds thrown at you.
Instead of enabling more ban and prohibits how about budgeting and appropriating funds to clear improperly prohibited persons add to NICs?
I fought your anti legislators from 92 to 2006. I know their MO.
This is a federal bill that has nothing to do with CA state laws or the CA legislators. What you are doing is flat out lying about what the Fix NICS bill does and the intentional spread of these lies is putting Nationwide Reciprocity at risk.
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Old 12-07-2017, 4:34 PM
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It increases federal funds available to add prohibits. It is not a lie. Also why throw in a bump stock study.
If not combined there would be no conc recip. But more NICs.

Anyway your sentors will kill it.
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Old 12-07-2017, 4:42 PM
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Quote:
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It increases federal funds available to add prohibits. It is not a lie. Also why throw in a bump stock study.
If not combined there would be no conc recip. But more NICs.

Anyway your sentors will kill it.
What additional category of prohibited persons does it add. Quote the actual bill, not your bogus interpretation of it.
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Old 12-07-2017, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
What additional category of prohibited persons does it add. Quote the actual bill, not your bogus interpretation of it.
Asked! Not answered. Fake news. New topic!
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Old 12-07-2017, 4:52 PM
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Look I was clear. It provides more funds to add more people even for existing state requirements as in CA and WA. It could be abused but that was not my direct point. It does not remove errors in the NICs database. Pretty clear. Net gain increase of number of prohibited persons.
Also combining bills is a poison pill method to defeat it, pretty clear.
Also adds bump stock study. Nothing to do with Conc Recip or NICs. Pretty clear.
My judgement is this bill will fail.
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Old 12-07-2017, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by OttoLoader View Post
Look I was clear. It provides more funds to add more people even for existing state requirements as in CA and WA. It could be abused but that was not my direct point. It does not remove errors in the NICs database. Pretty clear. Net gain increase of number of prohibited persons.
Also combining bills is a poison pill method to defeat it, pretty clear.
Also adds bump stock study. Nothing to do with Conc Recip or NICs. Pretty clear.
My judgement is this bill will fail.
Wrong again, part of the bill is written to increase accuracy and fix errors.
I bet you haven't even read the bill. Here is a link to it. Point out where it does what you claim it does.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...bill/4477/text
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  #28  
Old 12-07-2017, 5:25 PM
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Well if you are happy with it OK. I don't but that is a judgement call.
I could live with it and maybe carry if I ever unlikely go back to CA for a visit, but as it is a poison pill,
I sense it will fail.
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Old 12-07-2017, 5:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttoLoader View Post
Well if you are happy with it OK. I don't but that is a judgement call.
I could live with it and maybe carry if I ever unlikely go back to CA for a visit, but as it is a poison pill,
I sense it will fail.
Otherwise known as you can't point out anything in the bill that backs up your claims. It's not a "judgement call", or a matter if I am happy with it or not, either it is in the bill or it isn't, either you are telling the truth or you aren't.
Spreading lies like this hurts every gun owner that is fighting for Nationwide Reciprocity and the people spreading them are allying themselves the anti-gun crowd.
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Last edited by TRICKSTER; 12-07-2017 at 5:43 PM..
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Old 12-07-2017, 6:05 PM
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I am very straight forward about the weakness of the bill.
Time will tell.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 12-07-2017 at 6:08 PM..
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Old 12-07-2017, 6:33 PM
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What do you mean "it adds more funds to add more people?
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Old 12-07-2017, 6:52 PM
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In the Dec 1 version in fix NICs section on support to states etc around section K and L it looks like funding will be used to certifythat the NICS data base is in compliance so disqualifiers would need to be certied by the feds that they are entered. Looks like fed budget would be increased to do this. So even though no new disqualifiers are established new disqualifiers without due process such as VA and attempted SSA regs may most likely be entered. Good likelyness that many state disqualifiers will be swept up too.
So more likely the number of disqualifiers will increase. Not even future new disqualifiers to be passed by state leg.
Of course this is a watch out at this time as conference language is not available and 60 Senate votes do not look promising.
Maybe conf language will be better.
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Old 12-07-2017, 7:14 PM
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So you think that it is "most likely" these funds will be used by states to add their own new disqualifiers to the federal system while those states certify that their reporting of the currently mandated disqualifiers are compliant and updated with the federal system?

Is that your prediction? Without challenging your prediction, why would those additions, if possible at all, require expanded state funding?
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Old 12-07-2017, 7:26 PM
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Just as the VA and SSA (attempted) will report without Court ruling due process, assistance to the states means to me the feds will add resources to the states. States that disqualify without due process will add many to the NICs. That is the weakness in my view of the Dec 1 language.
May have been changed however maybe not.

Aside, if the fault with not reporting after Texas was the DOD USAF and feds, then why is support to states called out in the language?
Time will tell.
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Old 12-07-2017, 7:40 PM
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These purists who do not back up any of their chicken little sky is falling claims will be the death of our 2A rights. The gun grabbers didn't get all their idiotic laws by going all in but by accepting every little bit they could grab. If we want to restore our 2A rights, we need to learn that lesson and take every piece we can grab.
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Old 12-07-2017, 7:54 PM
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What of the approx 275,000 veterans who are prohibited because the VA got them financial planning or other benefits. Is it being a purist when pointing out significant risk?

Last edited by OttoLoader; 12-07-2017 at 8:08 PM.. Reason: Clarifications editing rhetorical question.
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Old 12-07-2017, 9:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttoLoader View Post
What of the approx 275,000 veterans who are prohibited because the VA got them financial planning or other benefits. Is it being a purist when pointing out significant risk?
Those veterans are at risk with or without the new NICS issues. That is a result of VA deficiencies that needs to be address separately. It's a strawman argument that has no bearing on the current reciprocity and NICS bills. You're grasping.
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Old 12-07-2017, 9:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttoLoader View Post
Just as the VA and SSA (attempted) will report without Court ruling due process, assistance to the states means to me the feds will add resources to the states. States that disqualify without due process will add many to the NICs. That is the weakness in my view of the Dec 1 language.
May have been changed however maybe not.
Because, you know, those states aren't willing to spend their own money to prohibit more people from owning guns ... right?


Quote:
Aside, if the fault with not reporting after Texas was the DOD USAF and feds, then why is support to states called out in the language?
Time will tell.
Um ... because it's trying to be comprehensive?


Look, you'll find nobody who distrusts the Democrats more than I do. But if you're going to insist on a logical link between the bad effects you claim will occur and the law, you're going to have to point to the language in the bill and show how it logically yields the effects you claim it will. Merely asserting it won't do.
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