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  #41  
Old 04-21-2011, 2:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post
Epoxy is FAR from permanent. Let me put it this way: a prosecutor can take an epoxied magazine, smack it on the table in front of a jury and the epoxy bonds will break, allowing him/her to disassemble the mag in front of the jury. The danger of epoxy is it's perceived permanence. This is why Riflegear and myself pin the baseplates to the body using a blind hole and roll pin technique.
Not sure what kind of epoxy you're using, but that hasn't been my experience. Hot glue maybe?
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  #42  
Old 04-21-2011, 3:40 PM
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Not sure what kind of epoxy you're using, but that hasn't been my experience. Hot glue maybe?
I have tried a bunch of different kinds ranging from stuff meant for use at sea to JB Weld. I have disassembled many mags that have been sent in to me for modification that were supposedly permanently sealed using epoxy that I've gotten into just by smacking them around a bit.
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  #43  
Old 04-21-2011, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by wash View Post
Well, look at FN PS90 ten round magazines.

They have a limiter that is functionally identical, it uses the same mag body, base plate, spring and follower(s), just the spacer is different from a 50 round magazine.

I don't think they are epoxied or anything.

If it's good enough for FN, it should be good enough for me.
As I was typing this that was all I could think about in my mind. However, it didn't bother me too much because I use actual 50 rounders in my featureless AR57.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
No, but there is regulation on that. There is no regulation on buying 10 round magazines. The regulation that goes into effect when you make a pre-ban large capacity magazine, limited to 10 is...
"...A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds"....

This holds true for use in fixed magazine firearms.

Store bought 10 round magazines do NOT need to comply with that regulation. The determining factor is, ""Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of accommodating more than 10 rounds..."

The condition of accommodating less than 11 rounds doesn't need to be PERMANENT.

so when you alter a 30rd magazine to limit its capacity, the phrase "permanently altered" comes into play. There is now debate and negotiation as to what they means. There is NO debate or negotiation when its simply a ten round capacity magazine.... even one with a longer body.
Reading the penal code it says,
Quote:
(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds
If I take the spring out of a "factory" magazine or a simple mag block and put a new spring in and it now holds more than ten rounds, then it has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

I would urge caution on anyone who thinks this law is clear or that they know how this is going to play out in court. We simply don't know and everything here is speculation.

Which is fine if you feel confident in your interpretation and have the coin to defend yourself in court.

I think there is some benefit to buying factory original magazines that say 10 rounders on them like the P90 mags. However, we all know Magpul doesn't make a factory 10 rounder. Magpul isn't going to stand behind you if you get busted using one of their large capacity magazines in your fixed magazine build.
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 04-21-2011 at 5:31 PM..
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  #44  
Old 04-21-2011, 5:47 PM
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Rather than opine in chapter and verse I stepped into my studio this afternoon and crafted a crude video to proffer my position.

Here is the direct link to the HD version: http://youtu.be/kUR31CYk4dg?hd=1
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  #45  
Old 04-21-2011, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by shooterdude View Post
Rather than opine in chapter and verse I stepped into my studio this afternoon and crafted a crude video to proffer my position.

Here is the direct link to the HD version: http://youtu.be/kUR31CYk4dg?hd=1

Well done and I totally agree.
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  #46  
Old 04-21-2011, 6:56 PM
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Originally Posted by shooterdude View Post
Rather than opine in chapter and verse I stepped into my studio this afternoon and crafted a crude video to proffer my position.

Here is the direct link to the HD version: http://youtu.be/kUR31CYk4dg?hd=1
What happens if you take out the magblock and put it together without the spring plate? I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

I like your train of thought, and I am not saying I don't agree with you, but it seems like it would make sense to epoxy the spring to the magblock for added peace of mind, since it could potentially function (albeit not very reliably) as a large capacity magazine without the spring plate installed.

It seems like a small step to run a bead of epoxy over the spring where it attaches to the magblock to ensure you stay out of prison and keep a felony free record. It doesn't seem worth it to potentially end up as a felon and permanently lose your gun rights over a magazine spring.
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  #47  
Old 04-21-2011, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by shooterdude View Post
Rather than opine in chapter and verse I stepped into my studio this afternoon and crafted a crude video to proffer my position.

Here is the direct link to the HD version: http://youtu.be/kUR31CYk4dg?hd=1
I am asking that we start to refer to magazines, built for the FIRST time EVER to be called 10 round magazines. You should not refer to the size of the magazine body by relating it to what it COULD hold if illegally assembled...ie a 10/20.

A 10/20 indicates a twenty round magazine that was PERMANENTLY ALTERED to only hold ten rounds. The proper term for a kit assembled for the first time using a body from what can also be a 20 round magazine, is a 10 rd MEDIUM body magazine. A 10 rd Long body would be a magazine first assembled with the same body as a 30 round magazine.

The reason for this is simple. To trigger regulation on ALTERING in both laws (PC12020(c)(25) & PC12276.1(d)(2) ) you must have ALTERED something.

If you did not alter it, then the capacity to accept is defined by how many rounds it accommodates. This has no legal bearing yet. Its a new concept.

Its based off the fact a Short Body 10 round magazine is not subject to the altering regulation even if its possible to modify it to hold more than 10. You are under NO obligation to prevent that, or make it permanent.

The same SHOULD hold true for a 10 rd magazine first manufactured with a longer body.

If you refer to the 10 rd long or medium body as a 10/20 or 10/30, you are agreeing or at least allowing someone to say it was altered and thus needs to comply with regulation on altered magazines.

If you in fact take an old 20 or 30 round magazine and alter them...those are 10/20s and 10/30s and MUST comply with the law as it is defined by the State.

The deal here is to NOT help the State meet their burden of proof.

great vid... I am going to tag that...LOL

Last edited by dieselpower; 04-21-2011 at 7:19 PM..
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  #48  
Old 04-21-2011, 7:20 PM
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What happens if you take out the magblock and put it together without the spring plate? I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

I like your train of thought, and I am not saying I don't agree with you, but it seems like it would make sense to epoxy the spring to the magblock for added peace of mind, since it could potentially function (albeit not very reliably) as a large capacity magazine without the spring plate installed.

It seems like a small step to run a bead of epoxy over the spring where it attaches to the magblock to ensure you stay out of prison and keep a felony free record. It doesn't seem worth it to potentially end up as a felon and permanently lose your gun rights over a magazine spring.
If you don't have the bottom spring plate then the bottom cap slides right off. It would probably stay for a few rounds until the recoil knocked the cap off and the spring, follower and the rest of your rounds fell out. Everyone gets wrapped up in affixing the bottom of the magazine to the body when in fact as soon as the bottom comes off it is a rebuild kit. If you put it back together without the limiter block then you built a large-cap magazine.

I have some Black Dog 10 round magazines for my .22 upper. They are actually 15 round mags with a small stop molded in to prevent the follower from allowing more than 10 rounds. I could easily open the magazine and grind out the stop with a dremel and put all 15 rounds in. Is that magazine any more or less "permanently" altered to only hold 10 rounds than what everyone does with PMAG's?

There is no easy answer to any of this until the CA legislature issues clearer language.

For the record, I use 10 round CProducts mags in my AR because I am not into making trouble for myself.
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  #49  
Old 04-21-2011, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by shooterdude View Post
Rather than opine in chapter and verse I stepped into my studio this afternoon and crafted a crude video to proffer my position.

Here is the direct link to the HD version: http://youtu.be/kUR31CYk4dg?hd=1
Oh snap!
Logic in video form for the reading comprehension impaired!
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  #50  
Old 04-21-2011, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by shooterdude View Post
Rather than opine in chapter and verse I stepped into my studio this afternoon and crafted a crude video to proffer my position.

Here is the direct link to the HD version: http://youtu.be/kUR31CYk4dg?hd=1
Nice video bro! Makes perfect sense to me! If you never take out the mag block, then it IS permanently altered to hold only 10 rounds.
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  #51  
Old 04-21-2011, 7:48 PM
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Originally Posted by shooterdude View Post
Rather than opine in chapter and verse I stepped into my studio this afternoon and crafted a crude video to proffer my position.

Here is the direct link to the HD version: http://youtu.be/kUR31CYk4dg?hd=1




So i dont understand is this video saying i dont have to epoxy the bottom??


and will i get hassled or arrested for not doing so? i want some PMAGS that are onsale in the glood deals section but i suck at caulking, epoxying.
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  #52  
Old 04-21-2011, 7:52 PM
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Do what you wish, but you guys are treading on thin ice if this is going to be your defense in court. The penal code is clear.

Quote:
12020 (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.
Any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds is a large capacity magazine. Although dieselpower makes a nifty definition of factory built vs. altered magazines, that does not exist in the penal code.

Again the penal code says "any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds". Does your factory P90 magazine have the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds? Yes it does. Does your PMAG have the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds? Yes it does.

The only defense you have is that you do not possess a large capacity magazine because you have permanently altered it. 12020(c)(25)(A) is only an exclusion to plain (25). In my opinion 25(a) is not a separate class, but a means to exclude yourself from (25).

Again my theory has not been tested in court either. I simply prefer not to chance it, especially when to be wrong here on a fixed magazine rifle throws you into even more serious charges.

We know the magazine ban is full of holes. The AW ban is not.

In the grand scheme of things no one probably cares. Assume your risk carefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cxr View Post
So i dont understand is this video saying i dont have to epoxy the bottom??

and will i get hassled or arrested for not doing so? i want some PMAGS that are onsale in the glood deals section but i suck at caulking, epoxying.
Yes the video is saying it. Will the video pay your legal bills? Does the video's definition of permanent have the precedence of law as established in court? Will the video be available for law enforcement who inspect your magazine that they just pulled out of your fixed magazine rifle?

Does "capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" mean as long as someone has to pull the magazine apart and then re-insert the spring that is their crime for manufacturering a large capacity magazine or will the court hold that the law enforcement officer "expert witness" is exempt from the manufacture law and they are simply showing how the magazine is not permanent?

All great questions everyone should consider. Again, please do what you feel comfortable doing. I have made up my mind and am comfortable with the decision.
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  #53  
Old 04-21-2011, 8:32 PM
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I do like the way you interpret C-25 as relieving you of A-2, but I fear it doesn't.

C-25 simply allows a large cap to be altered, and lose its LCM designation.

The key is ALTERED in the C-25 language. The DoJ said C-25 is "sufficiently understood by reasonable people." I can only ASSuME that to mean... it means what it says...changing X into Y.

If you are not changing X into Y, C-25 doesn't apply.

The real threat and reason you need to stay away from involving the "altered" language is 12276.1(d)(2) which is a two part definition.

"Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

For your benefit you need to avoid the red while sticking to the green.

So a NON-AW fixed magazine firearm is one where the magazine can only hold 10 rounds.

The permanently altered language (red) is only when you have modified (altered) a LCM into an 10 rd or less magazine.

This is already seen in the market place and real world since NO 10rd short body magazine has its floor plate sealed.

Notice "be construed to include a feeding device", language. This implys two types of feeding device, thus two sets of rules.
capable to accomodate 11 rds or more, and ALTERED to only accomdate 10 rds or less.

Last edited by dieselpower; 04-21-2011 at 8:36 PM..
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  #54  
Old 04-21-2011, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cxr View Post
So i dont understand is this video saying i dont have to epoxy the bottom??


and will i get hassled or arrested for not doing so? i want some PMAGS that are onsale in the glood deals section but i suck at caulking, epoxying.
The video is a reflection of my understanding of the current law. Does that mean that a prosecutor will agree with me? I don't know and that is the problem with this particular issue...it is clear as mud.

For the record, I use 10 round CProducts mags in my AR because I am not into making trouble for myself considering the ambiguous nature of this legislation.
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  #55  
Old 04-21-2011, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by shooterdude View Post
The video is a reflection of my understanding of the current law. Does that mean that a prosecutor will agree with me? I don't know and that is the problem with this particular issue...it is clear as mud.

For the record, I use 10 round CProducts mags in my AR because I am not into making trouble for myself considering the ambiguous nature of this legislation.
And that is the key. Everyone needs to understand all of us have opinions. None of us know if any of this will really fly in court. It is your responsibility to read, understand, and be prepared financially and criminally to defend your opinion.

I am more or less being a devil's advocate on this one, but I have the safety of a large capacity magazines permit and I don't use anything other than C Products 10 round mags in all of my fixed magazine rifles.

With that being said, thank you for expanding on an alternative legal theory.
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  #56  
Old 04-21-2011, 10:30 PM
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@ 10%,
being the guy who got this whole OLL thing going for us, do you think its better to force the burden of proof on the State?

Lets say we seal all magazine floor plates.

Isnt it still better to NOT refer to magazines as 10/30, since the law says,"Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

If you say 10/30, this is admitting you had a FEEDING DEVICE to begin with, and it needed to be altered, so in fact you were in possession of a large capacity magazine at some point.

Isn't it better to leave that open and just refer to our magazines as 10 rd magazines. If we must describe them, use terms that do not correspond to large capacity magazines and COULD indicate we were illegally sold or illegally imported in violation of 12020?
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:23 PM
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@ 10%,
being the guy who got this whole OLL thing going for us, do you think its better to force the burden of proof on the State?

Lets say we seal all magazine floor plates.

Isnt it still better to NOT refer to magazines as 10/30, since the law says,"Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

If you say 10/30, this is admitting you had a FEEDING DEVICE to begin with, and it needed to be altered, so in fact you were in possession of a large capacity magazine at some point.

Isn't it better to leave that open and just refer to our magazines as 10 rd magazines. If we must describe them, use terms that do not correspond to large capacity magazines and COULD indicate we were illegally sold or illegally imported in violation of 12020?
You are assuming the burden of proof is going to be on the state. They have their penal code that states a feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. They got more than ten rounds into your device.

If you are relying on when your device became a device as your legal defense, then I suppose terms such as 10/30 might be important to you. At such time it might be important to try and convince an entire industry and state to stop using terms such as 10/30. However, the Internet being what it is, the prosecution will probably just pull up old posts such as this and Internet history sites and as they say, "the cat is already out of the bag".

Also, I am not the guy that got OLLs going in this state. I am just the first dumb dealer to openly sell them. Second, what does my selling OLLs have to do with what you are asking here? OLLs are either OLLs or they are not. You are talking about a semantics game that I am not quite sure will be effective in court. Hence, I won't be relying on it as a defense or as you want an offense while being tried.

Again, best of luck to you.
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:56 PM
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You are assuming the burden of proof is going to be on the state. They have their penal code that states a feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. They got more than ten rounds into your device.

They can not load more then 10 without removal of the floor plate and then removal of the device which was placed inside to limit the capacity.

If you are relying on when your device became a device as your legal defense, then I suppose terms such as 10/30 might be important to you. At such time it might be important to try and convince an entire industry and state to stop using terms such as 10/30. However, the Internet being what it is, the prosecution will probably just pull up old posts such as this and Internet history sites and as they say, "the cat is already out of the bag".

It doesn't matter when we came to the realization of a burden or legal right. If I can show most people didn't realize LEO need a search warrant to search a car before the Internet, does that mean they now don't need a search warrant???? is the cat out of the bag? What we did has no bearing on what we now know.

Also, I am not the guy that got OLLs going in this state. I am just the first dumb dealer to openly sell them. Second, what does my selling OLLs have to do with what you are asking here? OLLs are either OLLs or they are not. You are talking about a semantics game that I am not quite sure will be effective in court. Hence, I won't be relying on it as a defense or as you want an offense while being tried.

You were one of the first to use a new way to "think" about how a law was written as a way to comply and still stay within your rights. I am doing the same. In the same as you are a criminal for playing a semantics game by Iggy standards, so am I by many people here. You simply read the law, understood what it said, and acted in your best interest under the law. I am doing the same thing here. I am merely hoping to apply one more layer of protection to a subject I know to be close to flaring up.

Again, best of luck to you.
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Old 04-22-2011, 7:07 AM
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Does anyone have an actual case they can use as precedent? I can't seem to find one.

Both prosecutors and defense lawyers always search for prior case history to bolster their position.
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Old 04-22-2011, 7:37 AM
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You were one of the first to use a new way to "think" about how a law was written as a way to comply and still stay within your rights. I am doing the same. In the same as you are a criminal for playing a semantics game by Iggy standards, so am I by many people here. You simply read the law, understood what it said, and acted in your best interest under the law. I am doing the same thing here. I am merely hoping to apply one more layer of protection to a subject I know to be close to flaring up.
I wish I were as brave as you. Where is your letter from Alison Merrilees? There are some definite deferences between OLLs and the magazine business.


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Originally Posted by shooterdude View Post
Does anyone have an actual case they can use as precedent? I can't seem to find one.

Both prosecutors and defense lawyers always search for prior case history to bolster their position.
You might be the first to have a case set the precedent. That is why this game here is not as safe as OLLs. No letter from the AG and definitely no case history. Well probably no case history in the positive. I do believe people have been busted for large cap magazine violations.

Again, I am not faulting you guys for playing the game. I appreciate your efforts. Just make sure in everything you do you warn people that this is not as clear cut as it may seem. A good example is the video that was posted and the questions that came out immediately afterwards from newbees that implied they didn't fully understand what was going on here. We have a responsibility to proceed with caution without endangering the freedom of others.

I think that has been accomplished in this thread. So I have no complaints and again I support your right to do as you wish with your lives. Longer body magazines are not a hill I want to die on.
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 04-22-2011 at 7:41 AM..
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Old 04-22-2011, 8:42 AM
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Ok then .. what magazines are good to go?
C-Products is out of business now correct?
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Old 04-22-2011, 8:54 AM
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How I made my mag "permanent" was to drill a small hole through the baseplate, under the shelf of the spring plate, and into the mag body - then drove a roll pin in there.
This causes the spring plate to be blocked from pressing down, and cannot remove the floor plate.
to me... that is permanently modified in such a way that it can no longer hold more than 10 rounds. In order to make it hold more than 10, it would have to be modified again, by drilling out a rollpin, and replacing the new blocker spring plate with a factory one which is no where around.
ATF says this is an acceptable method to permanently attach a flash hider - so works for me.

I'd like to see a lawyer do that in a courtroom in front of a jury.
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Old 04-22-2011, 9:38 AM
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I have said it before that I am just a broke hick with just enough knowledge to get me in trouble. I do not wish to be an example for some overzealous DA looking to make a name. Sure I could win but only after having to sell my property my house my vehicles and on and on. How much did I just spend to say I was right?

I asked my cousin why he was resisting making the floor plate permanent on his 10 round conversions. So he can turn it into a standard mag when all hell breaks loose or if there is some kind of law repeal? So he can clean it easier? He didnít really have an answer.

Iím gonna try and stay on the safe side. Iím gonna fix the block to the spring and seal the bottom of the mag.

They are still easy to clean too. Just spray carb cleaner in the mag, swish it around and dump out the extra. If they are really dirty, take the hose to it. It aint china, itís just a tool. And if it is beyond cleaning why not chuck it and spend $7.00 and make another one.

For the folks fixing the floor plate to the mag body, to be ďpermanentĒ, test those as well.

I have had AR mags that were JB welded, mag to floor plate, crack loose after running around on the quad for only a few hours. Even AR mags welded with the wire feed have failed as well but those mags were definitely abused.

Now I am using the epoxy the block to the spring route and I also dip the bottom half of the mags in roll on bed liner. Gives it a non-slip grip and is a ***** to cut off.

YMMV, I just donít want to see anyone end up with a cell mate using their sphincter as a trampoline because their epoxy cracked, roll pin fell out or whatever.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:29 AM
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I do like the way you interpret C-25 as relieving you of A-2, but I fear it doesn't.

C-25 simply allows a large cap to be altered, and lose its LCM designation.

The key is ALTERED in the C-25 language. The DoJ said C-25 is "sufficiently understood by reasonable people." I can only ASSuME that to mean... it means what it says...changing X into Y.

If you are not changing X into Y, C-25 doesn't apply.

The real threat and reason you need to stay away from involving the "altered" language is 12276.1(d)(2) which is a two part definition.

"Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

For your benefit you need to avoid the red while sticking to the green.

So a NON-AW fixed magazine firearm is one where the magazine can only hold 10 rounds.

The permanently altered language (red) is only when you have modified (altered) a LCM into an 10 rd or less magazine.

This is already seen in the market place and real world since NO 10rd short body magazine has its floor plate sealed.

Notice "be construed to include a feeding device", language. This implys two types of feeding device, thus two sets of rules.
capable to accomodate 11 rds or more, and ALTERED to only accomdate 10 rds or less.
And what magazine do you shoot with in your BB equipped AR?
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:07 AM
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And what magazine do you shoot with in your BB equipped AR?
I use short body 10rds. I have a couple 10/30s from when I thought the law said epoxy was legal and I wanted a few long bodies. I was wrong to alter legal large capacity magazines...its a stupid thing to do. This was when few people would sell magazines to CA.
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:29 AM
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I use short body 10rds. I have a couple 10/30s from when I thought the law said epoxy was legal and I wanted a few long bodies. I was wrong to alter legal large capacity magazines...its a stupid thing to do. This was when few people would sell magazines to CA.
Which short body 10rds do you use? I've heard that the C Products 10 rd mags are great but I can't find them anywhere. What else would you recommend for 10 rd short bodies?
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:04 PM
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I have a 10 round Magpul PMAG that I bought at a gun show ! It looks like a twenty round PMAG body but it doesn't say "PMAG 20" on the side, it just says "PMAG" on it. The limiter has "10 round" stamped on the tab that locks the floor plate in place. when the magazine is assembled you can read "10 Round" on the bottom of the magazine. I bought it this way and have no way of knowing if it started as a 20 round magazine but I can tell you it has "10 Round" stamped on it. Am I breaking the law????
I can post pictures later .
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:20 PM
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Heres the deal as we (non-epoxy guys) see it.

We do have the law on our side, or at least we have a more solid ground then the current belief.

Gun owners have been at odds with the AG and DoJ for years. That distrust has caused gunowners to fight everything the AG has said. Its only when the AG or DoJ releases a memo, or answers a letter in a way they like do we adopt that as "gospel".

Our logic of trusting what the AG and DoJ has said about epoxy, sealant and welds is a new way to think. Calguns has fought for so long, then this idiot called Dieselpower comes out of the woodwork and says, "trust the man"... oh boy the S has Hit the Fan...LOL

The truth is we now say to listen to what the AG and DoJ has said that sealant, welds, epoxy are NOT a legal way to ensure compliance.

When the law was being written many times people asked them to define "permanently altered". At first they wanted to, then the DoJ realized the only reason people wanted it defined was so they could figure a way to reverse it. The AG / DoJ removed all definition stating it would be against the statute to do it.

We need to trust what they said... "its against the law". Both 12276.1(d)(2) and 12020(c)(25) say permanently altered. Any reasonable person knows what that means. Its only when you think about reversing that does it NOT make sense to you. You want so bad to either figure a way to get around or, or you do not trust that people will not, that you form rules in your head surrounding the phrase. You want welds, sealant, rivets, bolts, pins... because that places time, skill and tools inside the process of reversal.

listen closely... THERE IS NO REVERSAL. You are asking...How can I murder my wife? That act is illegal. Well to guard against murder, we need to place blockades in the way for people to do it..restricts guns, limit knives, investigate, regulate..blah blah blah. Well to get back to our laws on magazines, NONE of that was approved, None of that extra regulation was needed. Why? Because the simple fact reversal is not legal. You are either manufacturing, or you are not. There is no such violation as "failure to alter permanently" 1 pound of epoxy is no more or less legal than 1 ounce of epoxy...or NO EPOXY.

The illegal act is reversal, not failure to protect against it

This is why you can not look at this as a way to protect against it as the legal course of action. With every weld of steel there is a way to cut it. With every rivet, there is a drill tip to remove it.

The law is what it is as written. I know thats a strange thing. We all think they are planning to screw us. They are forming plans to arrest us, kick in our doors, seize our guns. Charge us with crimes we had no idea we violated. They are not.

The law is simple. If you alter a feeding device so it has a maximum capacity of 10 rds or less, that is permanent. You have permanently altered a feeding device and it is no longer a large capacity magazine. **** ANY REVERSAL IS A VIOLATION OF LAW ****, its manufacturing as defined and is illegal after 1/1/2000 by 12020(a)(2) if you reverse that.

You should make it relatively hard to reverse because the law also states, "causes to be manufactured" is also illegal. If your alteration falls out, breaks or fails...your action to alter it fails and you are guilty of manufacturing. So designing to last matters over stopping purposeful reversal.

All the epoxy in the world on the floor plate doesn't stop criminal charges if the limiting device fails to limit it to 10 or less.

Please read this. Read all the sections on "permanently altered". SB23 final Its plain as day when you just read what is said.

You are being told what is required. What is required is NEVER MANUFACTURE, not stopping your fellow man from doing it, or make it take longer, or make it so only people with tools can do it...

A Feeding device is a feeding device. Parts are parts. You do not have to permanently alter parts...you are not required to modify parts. You are NOT required to alter any feeding device you do not want to. All feeding devices in your possession after 1/1/2000 are in your hands legally...or you have violated 12020(a)(2) to begin with. If you choose to use them in such a way that would cause you to violate 12020(a)(2) you are given an option. Alter them. By them I am referring to A COMPLETE WORKING MAGAZINE.

Here is a letter from the AG to Gene Hoffman. HERE. Parts are Parts.

If a DA fails to see this reason, and charges you with a crime, your defense is simple.... I was doing what I was told. That same DA can charge a person with a metric ton of epoxy on a floorplate if they so choose. the defense is the EXACT same. I was doing what I was told and I have not manufactured a magazine with the capacity of more than 10.

Last edited by dieselpower; 04-22-2011 at 12:23 PM..
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:21 PM
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Which short body 10rds do you use? I've heard that the C Products 10 rd mags are great but I can't find them anywhere. What else would you recommend for 10 rd short bodies?
I have pro-mags I bought from Addax. I replaced the followers with some extra old black ones I had. I use the gen3 magpuls for replacment parts on my large capacity magazines. The old black followers are great for the 10 rd short bodies.
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:24 PM
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Which short body 10rds do you use? I've heard that the C Products 10 rd mags are great but I can't find them anywhere. What else would you recommend for 10 rd short bodies?
http://www.calegalmags.com/Magpul-Pm...ndard_p_8.html

probably these..


bTW nice writeup diesel
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:29 PM
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I have a 10 round Magpul PMAG that I bought at a gun show ! It looks like a twenty round PMAG body but it doesn't say "PMAG 20" on the side, it just says "PMAG" on it. The limiter has "10 round" stamped on the tab that locks the floor plate in place. when the magazine is assembled you can read "10 Round" on the bottom of the magazine. I bought it this way and have no way of knowing if it started as a 20 round magazine but I can tell you it has "10 Round" stamped on it. Am I breaking the law????
I can post pictures later .
here is the law you can be charged with violating..
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

you tell me what you did wrong, if you did do any thing wrong that is...did you alter a feeding device that was legally sold to you as a feeding device? Did you manufacture a magazine?

Last edited by dieselpower; 04-22-2011 at 12:31 PM..
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Old 04-22-2011, 1:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 5.56Geo View Post
I have a 10 round Magpul PMAG that I bought at a gun show ! It looks like a twenty round PMAG body but it doesn't say "PMAG 20" on the side, it just says "PMAG" on it. The limiter has "10 round" stamped on the tab that locks the floor plate in place. when the magazine is assembled you can read "10 Round" on the bottom of the magazine. I bought it this way and have no way of knowing if it started as a 20 round magazine but I can tell you it has "10 Round" stamped on it. Am I breaking the law????
I can post pictures later .
I can't believe how many people buy these things at gun shows or find large capacity magazines laying around the gutter. It is a good thing they tell everyone on Calguns so in case they are ever suspected of breaking the law they can prove that they found that Hi-cap "laying around"
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Old 04-22-2011, 2:02 PM
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http://www.calegalmags.com/Magpul-Pm...ndard_p_8.html

probably these..


bTW nice writeup diesel
No I would say this is a better place to buy magazines
http://www.armalite.com/Categories.a...d-d4b35534acd5

I also want to add, without you knowing how much sealant, epoxy or whatever to use, you don't know if your alteration has met a standard.

Only an unreasonable person would think epoxy without a standard = permanent. If I do not know how thick, how much, what type, the question, "is it permanent", can not be answered.

A reasonable person, when told disassembly into parts, means the person must manufacture again, will conclude a limiting block on the inside is all that is needed. As soon as you assemble, you are manufacturing, and that MUST be done with PC12020 (a)(2) in mind.
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Old 04-22-2011, 2:12 PM
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here is the law you can be charged with violating..
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

you tell me what you did wrong, if you did do any thing wrong that is...did you alter a feeding device that was legally sold to you as a feeding device? Did you manufacture a magazine?
I did nothing wrong, I didn't alter or mfg the magazine. I bought it in it's present condition. It even has 10 Rounds stamped on it. The Magpul 20 Round magazine have "PMAG 20" stamped on it. Now the body looks like the same size as the PMAG 20 magazine. Here are some pictures.




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Old 04-22-2011, 2:37 PM
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I did nothing wrong, I didn't alter or mfg the magazine. I bought it in it's present condition. It even has 10 Rounds stamped on it. The Magpul 20 Round magazine have "PMAG 20" stamped on it. Now the body looks like the same size as the PMAG 20 magazine. Here are some pictures.




yes, and the person who manufactured that magazine pinned the floor plate in place because they do not trust you. They are under assumption that you are going to reverse the magazine and make an illegal one.

Be warned. Drilling the pin out of the bottom of that magazine will leave evidence that you disassembled it. That then brings up the question why? It also brings up the question, Was it permanent, if you operate under the assumption pinning was pernanent...that means the person who placed the pin didn't do it well enough and the person is a felon... Its a crazy unrealistic way to look at things.

The point is this. If you EVER have to disassemble that magazine, make DAM sure you can prove you had good reason to.

The pin at the bottom is your position that pins and sealant are needed to meet a standard called "permanently altered". The fact you reversed via tools, that shows you to have violated the law. Prepare to explain yourself.

I have a better idea..toss it in the trash if it ever breaks. Better yet, if it malfunctions, take it apart and toss out the floor plate and body. Use the limiter, spring and follower in another build or as repair parts.
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Old 04-22-2011, 2:55 PM
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yes, and the person who manufactured that magazine pinned the floor plate in place because they do not trust you. They are under assumption that you are going to reverse the magazine and make an illegal one.

Be warned. Drilling the pin out of the bottom of that magazine will leave evidence that you disassembled it. That then brings up the question why? It also brings up the question, Was it permanent, if you operate under the assumption pinning was pernanent...that means the person who placed the pin didn't do it well enough and the person is a felon... Its a crazy unrealistic way to look at things.

The point is this. If you EVER have to disassemble that magazine, make DAM sure you can prove you had good reason to.

The pin at the bottom is your position that pins and sealant are needed to meet a standard called "permanently altered". The fact you reversed via tools, that shows you to have violated the law. Prepare to explain yourself.

I have a better idea..toss it in the trash if it ever breaks. Better yet, if it malfunctions, take it apart and toss out the floor plate and body. Use the limiter, spring and follower in another build or as repair parts.
This magazine has never been pinned or riveted. What you see that looks like a pin is the the flashing from the injection molding process. I can take it apart and clean it with out the use of any tools.
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Old 04-22-2011, 3:01 PM
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This magazine has never been pinned or riveted. What you see that looks like a pin is the the flashing from the injection molding process. I can take it apart and clean it with out the use of any tools.
Cool. I don't own any Pmags so I didn't know. I own the magpul followers only. Good stuff.

just remember, every time you disassemble you are starting the manufacturing process over again.
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