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Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

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  #1  
Old 07-13-2018, 1:41 AM
kriller134 kriller134 is offline
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Default expander mandrel

Do I need an expander mandrel? I'm using whidden dies with a .289 bushing without the expander ball. My understanding is that it pushes all of the inconsistencies to the inside of the neck? So, if it does that, then I would need to get the inconsistencies back out right? And using a mandrel expander would do that or would the expander ball take care of that if I put it back in?
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  #2  
Old 07-13-2018, 3:27 AM
longrange1 longrange1 is offline
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friends dont let friends neck size only!

if you are turning necks and have a tight neck chamber then neck sizing is ok...personally id still FL size...but if your running unturned brass in a factory chamber then id suggest you just save yourself the hassles and FL size.

to answer your question...yes to all.
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Old 07-13-2018, 7:00 AM
kriller134 kriller134 is offline
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Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
friends dont let friends neck size only!

if you are turning necks and have a tight neck chamber then neck sizing is ok...personally id still FL size...but if your running unturned brass in a factory chamber then id suggest you just save yourself the hassles and FL size.

to answer your question...yes to all.
Thanks longrange! I am FL sizing. I'm loading 6.5 creed. So why is the mandrel better than the expander ball?
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  #4  
Old 07-13-2018, 8:12 AM
OpenSightsOnly OpenSightsOnly is offline
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Using a mandrel after sizing the brass ensures a consistent ID of the neck, that brings about a consistent neck tension for your brass lot.

FWIW, brass quality (in this case, consistency of neck wall thickness) matters, it's not just the dies.
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  #5  
Old 07-13-2018, 10:05 AM
longrange1 longrange1 is offline
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Originally Posted by kriller134 View Post
Thanks longrange! I am FL sizing. I'm loading 6.5 creed. So why is the mandrel better than the expander ball?


Iím not saying the mandrel is better Iím saying that you should use the expander with your die.

IMHO reloading is the most over thought part of shooting there is and unless your a bench rest shooter getting paid to shoot then most of it is a waste of time.

99% of ppl would be better off worrying less about finding the perfect load and getting more trigger time in and learning wind.

Iíve shot the last 3 weekends with guys that have just bought factory rifles shooting factory ammo...we threw the magneto speed on all and get up to 50fps extreme spreads but these guys are putting 7-10 on a 14Ē plate at 850yds.


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  #6  
Old 07-13-2018, 1:01 PM
longrange1 longrange1 is offline
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also to add to the above bushings do not size the entire neck they stop just short of the neck shoulder junction which causes brass to build up just above the neck shoulder junction.

like ive said before ive done all the brass and bullet prep work and in the end it does not matter unless your a bench rest shooter and even then im not so sure how much it matters as theres been several records shot without any prep work.
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Old 07-13-2018, 4:14 PM
kriller134 kriller134 is offline
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Default expander mandrel

Thanks for all of the info guys. As always longrange youíve been particularly a great help in my long range (no pun intended) pursuit. I ordered a mandrel and die and will do a test to see what I come up with. Iím gonna load a few rounds the way I am now, load a few with the expander ball, and load some up with the mandrel. Iíll let you know what I come up with.
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  #8  
Old 07-13-2018, 4:33 PM
longrange1 longrange1 is offline
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Default expander mandrel

You will need a good chrony to actually see anything with what your doing.

I hate typing or Iíd go into a big long winded post about all the things Iíve tested....Iíve shot thousands of rounds over a chrony testing and at the end of the day the trigger man is the most important thing second is your loads.

This is a 6.5x47 with a .293 neck running Lapua Brass with no prep work and FL sized every time...just to give you something to think about...or to help confuse you more lol...









Iíve got more but the point is you do not need to do all sorts of prep work to have an accurate low number rifle but itís best you learn for yourself as itís going to give you trigger time


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Old 07-13-2018, 7:23 PM
kriller134 kriller134 is offline
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Dude wtf? How did you manage to do that? Iím using a magnetospeed. Hopefully Iíll get numbers half as good as yours.
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2018, 3:44 AM
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Originally Posted by kriller134 View Post
Dude wtf? How did you manage to do that? Iím using a magnetospeed. Hopefully Iíll get numbers half as good as yours.
that shows he has his reloading technique down, and Knows WTF he's doing.

On the other hand he may have figured out how to hack the Magnetospeed and just makes this stuff up Kidding man just kidding,

best ive done is a sd of 9
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That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
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  #11  
Old 07-14-2018, 4:40 PM
longrange1 longrange1 is offline
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Default expander mandrel

No those are honestly legit but still trying to figure out how to hack the MS lol.

The worse ESs Iíve had in years are under 20fps with the exception of finding Iím getting doughnuts in my 47 brass and some of those were in the 80fps range.

Keep in mind the smaller the case the easier it is to control the numbers thatís why the BR-BRX...dasher etc are so accurate.

The x47 is the perfect in between cartridge IMHO...I can run 140s at 2825 130s at 2950 and 123s at 3050 out of a 24Ē barrel if I lean on it a little...and have been.

It is inherently accurate easy to load for and takes less powder to get the job done...going tomorrow morning to pick up my action and new barrel(3rd one)and I had my smith add 2Ē over my normal 24Ē for a little extra horse power...123s at 3100-3150 have peaked my interest.


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Last edited by longrange1; 07-14-2018 at 4:43 PM..
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  #12  
Old 07-14-2018, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
No those are honestly legit but still trying to figure out how to hack the MS lol.

The worse ESs Iíve had in years are under 20fps with the exception of finding Iím getting doughnuts in my 47 brass and some of those were in the 80fps range.

Keep in mind the smaller the case the easier it is to control the numbers thatís why the BR-BRX...dasher etc are so accurate.

The x47 is the perfect in between cartridge IMHO...I can run 140s at 2825 130s at 2950 and 123s at 3050 out of a 24Ē barrel if I lean on it a little...and have been.

It is inherently accurate easy to load for and takes less powder to get the job done...going tomorrow morning to pick up my action and new barrel(3rd one)and I had my smith add 2Ē over my normal 24Ē for a little extra horse power...123s at 3100-3150 have peaked my interest.


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It's a terminology thing But I find nothing inherently accurate, That said ( and here's the terminology thing) I do believe in inherent efficiency and consistency which eventually equals potential accuracy. and by potentially i mean taking the weapon and and the loose nut behind it into consideration. Don't get me wrong, I think we are on the same page, it's just semantics

The term "Inherent accuracy of a cartridge" is like nails on a chalk board to me, But thats from reading 1980's-1990's gun rags that had to promote the next best thing. Hearing it at the gun range from people that couldn't hit 50% of the time, Inherent accuracy was thrown around like "Tactical" in the last few years and there is nothing Tactical about a rifle.
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Dick.

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Originally Posted by tujungatoes View Post
That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
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  #13  
Old 07-14-2018, 8:09 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
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Kriller134
Here is a simple way of lowering your extreme spreads.

As you slowly increase your powder charge your extreme spreads will drop then start spreading out again.
As they are dropping you watch on the chronograph to get them at there lowest deviation.
Once you are at the lowest number if the extreme spread is above 30 FPS it's time to change primers. The primer has a huge affect on extreme spread so try everything that will fit.
If your extreme spreads are still not as low as you want them uniform the primer pockets and the flashhole.
If they still are not single digits and your trim length is good and your neck tension is good start playing with your seating depth.
If your extreme spreads are just crazy big your powder choice is wrong.
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Old 07-15-2018, 1:29 AM
longrange1 longrange1 is offline
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
It's a terminology thing But I find nothing inherently accurate, That said ( and here's the terminology thing) I do believe in inherent efficiency and consistency which eventually equals potential accuracy. and by potentially i mean taking the weapon and and the loose nut behind it into consideration. Don't get me wrong, I think we are on the same page, it's just semantics



The term "Inherent accuracy of a cartridge" is like nails on a chalk board to me, But thats from reading 1980's-1990's gun rags that had to promote the next best thing. Hearing it at the gun range from people that couldn't hit 50% of the time, Inherent accuracy was thrown around like "Tactical" in the last few years and there is nothing Tactical about a rifle.


Agreed!

So what your saying is my MPA chassisíd rifle is not Tacticool like everyone said it would be?


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Old 07-15-2018, 1:30 AM
longrange1 longrange1 is offline
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Kriller134

Here is a simple way of lowering your extreme spreads.



As you slowly increase your powder charge your extreme spreads will drop then start spreading out again.

As they are dropping you watch on the chronograph to get them at there lowest deviation.

Once you are at the lowest number if the extreme spread is above 30 FPS it's time to change primers. The primer has a huge affect on extreme spread so try everything that will fit.

If your extreme spreads are still not as low as you want them uniform the primer pockets and the flashhole.

If they still are not single digits and your trim length is good and your neck tension is good start playing with your seating depth.

If your extreme spreads are just crazy big your powder choice is wrong.


This right here^^^!!

Itís been my experience as that the fuller you can get a case the lower the numbers will be.


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Old 07-15-2018, 5:01 AM
eric n eric n is offline
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Test it.
Make a sample without the expander and shoot it against a sample with expander button used. If you anneal, be sure to do so with both batches. If not, make sure both samples have the same amount of firings. In other words, keep everything the same except work harden the necks a tad by pulling the button back through one batch. Shoot both batches at the same poa and at the longest distance available to you but even at 500yds you will probably see a poi shift with one batch.

Itís a real eye opener on the importance of neck tension and consistency.

FWIW... my testing was done with turned brass using a mandrel on brass sized down .003 at the neck expanded to bullet diameter and reduced .003 again. .223 and 6mm
Unfortunately, I didnít chrony any of the samples.
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Old 07-15-2018, 7:45 AM
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Agreed!

So what your saying is my MPA chassisíd rifle is not Tacticool like everyone said it would be?


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It's a cool as you want it to be man.
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Dick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tujungatoes View Post
That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
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Old 07-15-2018, 9:05 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
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Inherent accuracy is usually applied to chamberings like the 6BR and 6 PPC.
They get that label moniker because nobody sells cheap garbage components for them and getting a rifle with a good barrel to shoot groups as large as 1 inch at 100 yards is all but impossible to do.
If you have a brand new rifle in one of those chamberings and it's shooting more than a inch at 100 yards something is usually broken or loose on the gun.
If your a brand new reloader you look like a genius loading for those two cartridges.

I did a ladder test on a 6BR heavygun at 100 yards with 7 different powder charges and the vertical was less than 3/8 inch.
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Old 07-16-2018, 8:20 AM
kriller134 kriller134 is offline
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Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
This right here^^^!!

Itís been my experience as that the fuller you can get a case the lower the numbers will be.


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This makes sense to me. During my initial development, I found that my numbers were really close to each other at the max load weight.
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Old 07-16-2018, 12:36 PM
longrange1 longrange1 is offline
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everything ive shot for several years is over book max.


i got cut short here so i will add that i also think you need to up your charges...41.5g of H4350 is kinda the standard in the 6.5CM with a 140g bullet....id suggest you run a new load development starting at 41g and run up to 42g in .2 or .3g increments and run your LD like this

load 6 rounds each at 41g-41.3g-41.6g-41.9g...personally id skip the 41g and add 42.2g but its your gun so...
set up your target on a tall piece of paper with(2 dots or what ever you use)for each charge weight 4 on the right side 4 on the left
shoot the lowest to highest on the right 3 rounds at each target...so 12 rounds total...let the barrel cool...then shoot the highest to lowest on the left side 3 rounds each at each target.

i can pretty much guarantee there will be a load in there and i bet that all of these will group well as long as you are capable...now bullets...if you shooting VLDs seat them touching or .002 in the lands if not VLDs then seat them .020 off the lands...if you get that RPR(if i remember correctly)to shoot a 1/2" or less id call it done and start getting trigger time.

this is not my load development but i have been using it for quite awhile and it works...ive found loads in 36 or less rounds in the last 8 barrels...here is the load development its a good read and it will work with and caliber just adjust the charge weights..

http://www.texasprc.club/preidloaddev

Last edited by longrange1; 07-16-2018 at 1:47 PM..
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