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  #1  
Old 07-01-2018, 11:36 PM
garyngwind garyngwind is offline
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Default 2 variances to tackle: "headspace length", and COAL, which one to sort by?

rifle: Rem 700
caliber: 300 Win Mag
projectile: SMK 190 grain

I got the hornady headspace comparator, and after Neck Sizing (Lee die), i will end up with cases of varying 'headspace length" (from the base of brass to a datum point on the shoulder). Range of variance is 0.005 inch, though 80% falls within 0.003 range. Understandably, I cannot control this to a perfect length each time.

with that said, I also will end up with varying length in COAL, with about 0.006 inch of variance: from 2.612 to 2.620, and again most of them falls in the 2.615-2.617 range. I can trim it with Lee's trimmer, but the most i can get down to 2.617, so not all case will be perfectly the same length.

so, I tried to sort the brass in ascending order of variance, before powder and bullet seat. But with two variances to deal with, which one should take precedence? or, there are other ways to get them "perfect"
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  #2  
Old 07-02-2018, 2:34 AM
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There is no such thing as perfect in shooting or reloading or life in general. I think you are over thinking this and chasing your tail.

Trim length is +/- .010" and unless you are using a drop indicator you'll never get a good reading from shoulder datum to case head with calipers.

That and no mention of brass quality, what kind of press do you have ( i bet a lee press due to other stuff mentioned) and not to discount Lee but .005" variance thats +/- .0025' with the majority at +/-.0015" I'd say you are fine and well within acceptable limits.

I know a lot of top level shooters and there are those that fret over case length to headspace datum, and those that don't and they all seem to shoot just as well as one another.

Now I'm going to beat up on Lee a bit. Lee will produce good quality ammunition, but there is a reason benchrest guys us arbor presses or very high end presses and dies. to reduce the variance you are seeing. It's actually not beating up on Lee at all it's just shows how close you can get with really inexpensive gear.

But again I think what you have is good. don't trim cases till they have grown to .010" over your trim to length. and don't worry to much about headspace. as long as you are not bumping the shoulder back a huge amount your brass will last just fine.
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  #3  
Old 07-02-2018, 7:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyngwind View Post
rifle: Rem 700
caliber: 300 Win Mag
projectile: SMK 190 grain

I got the hornady headspace comparator, and after Neck Sizing (Lee die), i will end up with cases of varying 'headspace length" (from the base of brass to a datum point on the shoulder). Range of variance is 0.005 inch, though 80% falls within 0.003 range. Understandably, I cannot control this to a perfect length each time.
The length of the case from datum to the case head is not an included measurement. The overall length if measuring from the contact point with the rifling or maximum length from the nose of the bullet to the case head is a stand alone measurement.

Again: When using the Hornady/Sinclair try to remember the tool is not a head space gage, it is a comparator, I suggest when using the Hornady tool measure before and again after. Not a problem for a few but Hornady uses a datum that has a bevel.

Wilson case gages are datum based tools, they also have a datum that has a bevel, The difference between the Wilson and Hornady is the accuracy. The Wilson case gage can be checked for accuracy by a very few reloaders; and to think the Wilson case gage has been with us for over 77 years.

F. Guffey
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Old 07-02-2018, 7:49 AM
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Guffey
This is what I want to see from you, straight posts, no riddles,
Thanks for being a bit more clear
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That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
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Old 07-02-2018, 9:07 AM
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I’m assuming these are cases fired in your rifle. If so, then don’t sort by headspace or case length. Most factory chambers are .050” longer than trim length. Your cases will fail before they grow to be too long. Case length has nothing to do with accuracy unless you’re crimping.
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  #6  
Old 07-02-2018, 10:33 AM
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yes, they are all fire formed from the same rifle.

and thank guys
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  #7  
Old 07-02-2018, 1:17 PM
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Quote:
Most factory chambers are .050” longer than trim length
If I purchased a new rifle and found the rifle chamber was .050" longer than the case I would get my money back. I have built wildcats with no option on cases when forming. I have had cases shorten .045" when going from 30/06 to 35 Whelen and 30 Gibbs; if the chamber was .050" longer than the case I would not finish with too much of the chamber exposed/not covered by the case.

F. Guffey
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  #8  
Old 07-02-2018, 1:41 PM
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Seeing the shoulder datum vary by 0.005 isn't unusual.

It takes several cycles to see where the shoulder will settle. You will want to try this with just a few cases, and track them for at least 4 to 5 cycles or stop sooner if they chamber too tight as in the bolt handle closes harder. Those values are your real limit.

You will find that cases respond differently to the exact same size die settings depending on the condition of the case. Additional variables are the lubrication and things like dragging an expander ball back through versus collet dies.

An annealing cycle about every third cycle or so isn't a bad way to keep those necks from cold working to the point of splitting.

I doubt the shoulder datum variation will hurt you, but only good testing discipline will tell.

The trim length spread depends on things like what the tools are indexing from, for example the head versus the shoulders. Again, the slight variation in the case length isn't going to hurt you unless you are using a length sensitive crimp.
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Old 07-02-2018, 7:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
If I purchased a new rifle and found the rifle chamber was .050" longer than the case I would get my money back. I have built wildcats with no option on cases when forming. I have had cases shorten .045" when going from 30/06 to 35 Whelen and 30 Gibbs; if the chamber was .050" longer than the case I would not finish with too much of the chamber exposed/not covered by the case.

F. Guffey
What you wrote still doesn’t change that fact. Maybe you should read a reamer print or two.
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Old 07-03-2018, 2:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
If I purchased a new rifle and found the rifle chamber was .050" longer than the case I would get my money back. I have built wildcats with no option on cases when forming. I have had cases shorten .045" when going from 30/06 to 35 Whelen and 30 Gibbs; if the chamber was .050" longer than the case I would not finish with too much of the chamber exposed/not covered by the case.

F. Guffey
It's not the length of the chamber exactly, it's the length the neck is cut too. and most factory chambers are cut with a very generously long neck
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That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
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  #11  
Old 07-03-2018, 7:43 AM
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Quote:
What you wrote still doesn’t change that fact. Maybe you should read a reamer print or two.
There is no fact except your made it up. A .050 gap between then end of the case and the end of the chamber exposes too much of the chamber to the hot, high pressure metal cutting gas; and then there is the chance of all that hot high pressure metal cutting gas passing the bullet before the bullet hits the rifling. After that? Add free bore.

F. Guffey
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:50 AM
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I did not make it up. I measured. Obviously you have not.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:56 AM
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O/P, varying shoulder bump can be caused by inconsistent case lube. Not using enough lube can cause the shoulder bump to be erratic.
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
I did not make it up. I measured. Obviously you have not.
J-Cat, you are going to have to look it up on the Internet, I make tools for measuring the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the end of the chamber neck.

If you have a rifle with an extra long chamber because of the long neck try to get your money back or ask the manufacturer to fix the rifle.

If you are interested in off setting the extra long neck ask the Debonair tool maker.

F. Guffey
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:25 PM
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I have two Sako TRG42’s and one TRG22, all three are .050” longer than trim length. My Dakota Predator .221 Fireball, Tikka 223, Noveske 556, Remmy 308 LTR, were about that much over. I initially discovered this when forming 221 cases. I thought the same as you. But then I measured my other rifles and realized this is an industry standard practice.

I make .300WM long neck cases from .300 H&H that measure 2.660” with .015” to spare in my chamber.

Please do not call me a liar again.
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Old 07-03-2018, 2:09 PM
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Quote:
Please do not call me a liar again.
You started with the ability to reed reamer prints and then made an attempt to make your self look good at my expense. After that it appears you took a CYA course. I do not know when to start believing you. One more time: I am not the fan of short cases in long chambers.

F. Guffey
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Old 07-04-2018, 5:57 AM
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I wasn’t trying to cya. I was stating how I arrived at my conclusion. I really don’t care if you believe me or not, but try taking a factory rifle and measuring the chamber instead of talking out of your pompous behind before you challenge me again.
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Old 07-14-2018, 6:57 AM
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I am not the fan of short cases in long chambers.
Again, I want to cover the chamber with the case. I find nothing cute about a chamber with a gap of .050" between the end of the case neck and the end of the chamber.

Again, I form cases. By the time I form some wildcats the case shortens .045", according to you that is 'OK'. Again, I want the case to cover the chamber, and then there is the chamber with the short neck. According to some reloaders the 300 Win Mag has a short neck; one of my wildcats has a neck that is .217" long after forming and firing. By increasing the length of the neck I increase bullet hold, I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the hold I can get; other reloaders want tension, they can not measure tension, they do not have a tension gage that measure tension, Me? I want the neck to hold the bullet, for me there is no such thing as too much bullet hold.

And then there is the part about challenging you, if that is what I thought I was doing I would feel guilty.

F. Guffey
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Old 07-14-2018, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyngwind View Post
rifle: Rem 700
caliber: 300 Win Mag
projectile: SMK 190 grain

I got the hornady headspace comparator, and after Neck Sizing (Lee die), i will end up with cases of varying 'headspace length" (from the base of brass to a datum point on the shoulder). Range of variance is 0.005 inch, though 80% falls within 0.003 range. Understandably, I cannot control this to a perfect length each time.

with that said, I also will end up with varying length in COAL, with about 0.006 inch of variance: from 2.612 to 2.620, and again most of them falls in the 2.615-2.617 range. I can trim it with Lee's trimmer, but the most i can get down to 2.617, so not all case will be perfectly the same length.

so, I tried to sort the brass in ascending order of variance, before powder and bullet seat. But with two variances to deal with, which one should take precedence? or, there are other ways to get them "perfect"
OP if that is an off-the-shelf rifle, then you are getting ahead of yourself worrying about HS.

Just full-length size consistently, use the same components, changing one thing at a time. Get a Lee case trimmer and set a hundred or so pcs of brass to min length.
Chamfer and deburr, clean the flash from the primer hole, and use that pile for your workups. Start with powder, find your charge weight. Next, try different primers, then COAL. Consistency is key.

HS won't make a difference until you have eliminated a bunch of other variables. Consistency is key, along with patience, record-keeping, and changing one thing at a time.
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
You will find that cases respond differently to the exact same size die settings depending on the condition of the case. Additional variables are the lubrication and things like dragging an expander ball back through versus collet dies.
Quote:
varying shoulder bump can be caused by inconsistent case lube. Not using enough lube can cause the shoulder bump to be erratic.
Those are both correct statements but IMO for the wrong reasons . The reason you get inconsistent sized cases from head to datum point is do to press deflection . This can be caused by the press body like a C type press which will allow the open end of the press to flex when sizing cases . How ever it's my belief that the more likely cause of press deflection in all presses regardless of type is the flex/distortion in the linkage between the ram and the press handle .

So what do I mean by press deflection ?

This photo shows a FL 308 die screwed down to just barely kiss the shell holder when the ram is full up with out sizing the case . Note there is no gap between the die and shell holder .



This photo has the die adjusted exactly the same way as the above photo . The only difference is that there is a case being sized in the die resulting in a load being exerted on the press . Note the gap now present between the die and shell holder .



This is do to that press deflection/flex and IMHO the reason we get inconsistently sized cases from head to datum point . Some presses will have more then others but it's there regardless of which ones you use . When you're only needing to move the shoulder .002 or so it does not take much flex in the system to throw that off . So yes the amount of lube can effect the size of the case but not so much because of the lube it self but the amount of press flex you get based on how easy or hard it is to size the case . I've tested how much I could actually manipulate the size of a case from head to datum point with just lube alone . I was only able to consistently adjust the size by .0005 because using enough lube to get another .001 difference caused way to many dented shoulders .

Quote:
Range of variance is 0.005 inch, though 80% falls within 0.003 range. Understandably, I cannot control this to a perfect length each time.
That variance is likely do to your press deflection/flex . I'll add that you absolutely can control that variance to a +/- of .001 and often to a +/- of .0005 from head to datum point . The simple answer we need to remove that deflection/flex from the equation . The best way I've found is to have the die and shell holder make hard contact through out the sizing process to include cam over if your press allows .

The problem most of us run into when getting hard contact between the die & "standard" shell holder is that usually sizes are cases down further then we want from head to datum point .( just making numbers up here next ) So lets say your fire formed case measures 1.708 from head to datum point and you want to bump you shoulder back .002 to 1.706 . How ever when your die and standard shell holder make hard contact through the sizing process including cam over if allowed . Your cases come out 1.694 . The logical thing to do is back the die out/off the shell holder .012 to get your desired length of 1.706 . By doing so you reintroduce that press deflection/flex resulting in those inconsistently sized cases

So now what ? it sure seems like you're screwed right , wrong . There is two ways to tackle this issue , maybe many more but there are two ways that seem to be the most common . One is to back the die out and use a feeler gauge of the proper Hight between the die and shell holder in order to mimic the hard contact between the die and standard shell holder . By doing so the case is now sized longer of the same amount of the feeler gauge . The other way and the way I prefer is to use a set of Redding competition shell holders https://www.midwayusa.com/product/31...chester-magnum
These allow the press and die to make hard contact while at the same time sizing your cases longer from head to datum point in .002 increments depending on the shell holder you use . The benefit of the shell holder set is you don't need to manually place a feeler gauge in between the die and standard shell holder on every case sized . You just insert to correct sized competition shell holder and if the die is adjusted right all your cases will come out to with in +/- .001 with most even less then that . The other plus side to the competition shell holders is you will not need to adjust your die anymore when loading for a different rifle of the same caliber/cartridge even if there case headspace is different from one another . You just change out the shell holder to the proper size for the other rifle . I've not adjusted my 308 FL die or my 223 FL die in years and I load for multiple rifles in both cartridges .

Hope that helps
MG
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Old 07-17-2018, 7:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
There is no such thing as perfect in shooting or reloading or life in general. I think you are over thinking this and chasing your tail.

Trim length is +/- .010" and unless you are using a drop indicator you'll never get a good reading from shoulder datum to case head with calipers.

That and no mention of brass quality, what kind of press do you have ( i bet a lee press due to other stuff mentioned) and not to discount Lee but .005" variance thats +/- .0025' with the majority at +/-.0015" I'd say you are fine and well within acceptable limits.

I know a lot of top level shooters and there are those that fret over case length to headspace datum, and those that don't and they all seem to shoot just as well as one another.

Now I'm going to beat up on Lee a bit. Lee will produce good quality ammunition, but there is a reason benchrest guys us arbor presses or very high end presses and dies. to reduce the variance you are seeing. It's actually not beating up on Lee at all it's just shows how close you can get with really inexpensive gear.

But again I think what you have is good. don't trim cases till they have grown to .010" over your trim to length. and don't worry to much about headspace. as long as you are not bumping the shoulder back a huge amount your brass will last just fine.


Best reply in this thread, the one with pics of the Lee press came in a close second
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Old 07-17-2018, 8:36 AM
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Oh boy , we are rating posts now . To be clear by me coming in a close second , what you really mean is I was the first looser ??? lol
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If you have the time check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04wyGK6k6HE or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY
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Old 07-17-2018, 9:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyngwind View Post
rifle: Rem 700
caliber: 300 Win Mag
projectile: SMK 190 grain

I got the hornady headspace comparator, and after Neck Sizing (Lee die), i will end up with cases of varying 'headspace length" (from the base of brass to a datum point on the shoulder). Range of variance is 0.005 inch, though 80% falls within 0.003 range. Understandably, I cannot control this to a perfect length each time.

with that said, I also will end up with varying length in COAL, with about 0.006 inch of variance: from 2.612 to 2.620, and again most of them falls in the 2.615-2.617 range. I can trim it with Lee's trimmer, but the most i can get down to 2.617, so not all case will be perfectly the same length.

so, I tried to sort the brass in ascending order of variance, before powder and bullet seat. But with two variances to deal with, which one should take precedence? or, there are other ways to get them "perfect"
Solve your sizing length variance by hard bumping the shoulder.
The seating length variance is likely from bullet tip length variance.
Don't worry about OAL.
Worry about the variance in touch length.
The touch point is where the bullet touches the lands and starts to engrave.
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Old 07-17-2018, 9:46 AM
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Quote:
Worry about the variance in touch length.
Never heard it called that but is correct none the less . OP you can buy the comparator inserts that allow you to measure from your bullets ogive-ish . This will give you a much more consistent measurement because tips vary quite a bit . When loading to mag length on a AR using 77gr smk . To get all bullets to be at 2.260 or less . Some of my COAL's are 2.254 or less but if measured of the ogive they are often only +/- .001 from one another . This results in a consistent jump to the lands which you don't get if measuring from head to tip of bullet
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Anyone else find it sad that those who preach tolerance CAN'T allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that they do not necessarily like or agree with) without interference.

If you have the time check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04wyGK6k6HE or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY
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Old 07-21-2018, 12:41 PM
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Oh boy , we are rating posts now . To be clear by me coming in a close second , what you really mean is I was the first looser ??? lol
oh no nothing like that, you make it across the finish line you're still a winner
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