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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #121  
Old 02-10-2010, 5:09 PM
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Originally Posted by nrakid88 View Post
Wouldn't matter. Thats so basic. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you want to knock over the target person, the energy required would knock the shooter over too. Watch mythbusters, not even a 50 will knock someone down (at least the momentum wouldn't, the 50 would tear you in half though).

The shooter will be knocked down just as hard as the target, since no energy can be created nor destroyed. Basic physics.
The physics is still there. However, one end is the rifle/shotgun that absorbs the energy and the rest is transfered to arms and body of the shooter, but the target has to absorb the concentrated total terminal energy of the round.

Would you want a sledge hammer slamming on your arms or on your chest ?
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  #122  
Old 02-10-2010, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 1988 View Post
The physics is still there. However, one end is the rifle/shotgun that absorbs the energy and the rest is transfered to arms and body of the shooter, but the target has to absorb the concentrated total terminal energy of the round.

Would you want a sledge hammer slamming on your arms or on your chest ?
We were talking about knockdown. I understand that the barrel acts as a buffer as it fire the projectile and imparts the force onto you body, you have twenty inches for the bullet to get up to speed, where as getting hit by the bullet, haha, no buffer. One hurts your shoulder, the other kills you. But they both have the same knock down power (momentum)
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  #123  
Old 02-10-2010, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by nrakid88 View Post
Wouldn't matter. Thats so basic. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you want to knock over the target person, the energy required would knock the shooter over too. Watch mythbusters, not even a 50 will knock someone down (at least the momentum wouldn't, the 50 would tear you in half though).

The shooter will be knocked down just as hard as the target, since no energy can be created nor destroyed. Basic physics.
I know what your saying but it's still not right, because there is a gun that will knock the person shooting it over and idk if it will knock down the person it hits. but idk.. the bullet doesn't deliver energy in the same way that the butt-pad delivers energy
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  #124  
Old 02-10-2010, 5:39 PM
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I know what your saying but it's still not right, because there is a gun that will knock the person shooting it over and idk if it will knock down the person it hits. but idk.. the bullet doesn't deliver energy in the same way that the butt-pad delivers energy
That is true. I was ignoring this because I didnt want to have to explain it, but the bullets kinetic energy isn't all turned into kinetic energy in its target. Lots of energy is "wasted" heating up the bullet and flesh, bending the bullet out of shape, tearing flesh, and if the bullet exits, then it takes along the rest of its kinetic energy. However this "waste" is what destroys tissue and is the reason a bullet was created in the first place.
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  #125  
Old 02-10-2010, 5:44 PM
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Am I the only one who notices that these two diagrams are extremely misleading? The .223 produces a bulge from roughly the 10cm mark on the scale to the 30cm mark on the scale, or 20cm in length and height roughly. The .308 diagram shows its bulge from 15cm to 50cm, or 35cm in length and 25cm in height roughly. Look at the scales on the bottom, not the visual representation (misleadingly sized the same when side by side) when making a wound channel determination.
Just so everyone can see, I have expanded the .308 image so that the 5.56 and .308 are roughly the same scale:



higher res version here:
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...08vs556big.jpg
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  #126  
Old 02-10-2010, 5:48 PM
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This is why I like goofing on you 223/AR guys. Now your disputing those that have used them in combat.
Really, I am disputing it? Please post and highlight where I disputed your friend's claims. Please highlight in bold and underline the part were I stated he never saw combat and please highlight in bold and underline the part where I stated he never saw enemies getting shot mulitple times and keep on attacking.

Let me guess you didn't find it. Maybe because I didn't dispute anything. Maybe because it is a fact those enemies have been using drugs to lessen their feelings of pain. Maybe because it is a fact that enemies inlcuding the North Vietnamese, Somalis, and Afghanis are abusing things like opium.

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So to expand on your idea, if the enemy is "doped up on something" then use a 308, or a 223 is fine but only if you hit them with a perfect shot in a "critical organ" Critical artery etc..." Not sure how you know if they are doped up before shooting. Better, make it simple and use a round that will stop things just shy of an Elk.
Uhh... what? I am not going to argue this with you. Those people mentioned above did in fact use drugs during fighting. It isn't an opinion and I don't need to convince you. If you really want to believe the 5.56mm is so ineffictive than on that unforunate day when you meet your maker I am sure you can talk it over with all the dead Vietcong, Somalis, Iraqis, Afghanis, and crooks including the North Hollywood bandits.
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  #127  
Old 02-10-2010, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by nrakid88 View Post
We were talking about knockdown. I understand that the barrel acts as a buffer as it fire the projectile and imparts the force onto you body, you have twenty inches for the bullet to get up to speed, where as getting hit by the bullet, haha, no buffer. One hurts your shoulder, the other kills you. But they both have the same knock down power (momentum)

Just for discussion sake, wouldn't the person/object being shot feel more of a kick then the shooter? Assuming that they are positioned point blank so the bullet wouldn't lose any velocity, the gun being used is a semi-automatic and the bullet dumps all kinetic energy into the person being shot. The shooter should feel less of a kick because it's being dampened by the rearward movement of the bolt and recoil spring. Right?
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  #128  
Old 02-10-2010, 5:54 PM
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Originally Posted by corporateslave View Post
Just so everyone can see, I have expanded the .308 image so that the 5.56 and .308 are roughly the same scale:



higher res version here:
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...08vs556big.jpg
You need to read up on what those things mean, as it is clear you are misunderstanding them. The lighter shaded bulges are temporary cavities, which means on a slow motion xray video, thats how much the cavity opened up during being shot. However, once they went back, because tissues are elastic, the darker shaded areas are the perminent cavities, where the hole really is. So in the two you refferenced, although the temporary cavities are similiar, the permanent cavity of the .308 fmj is a joke compared to the permanent cavity of the 5.56 fmj. And there is debate to weather a temporary cavity by itself is a wounding mechanism.
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  #129  
Old 02-10-2010, 5:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Toast View Post
Just for discussion sake, wouldn't the person/object being shot feel more of a kick then the shooter? Assuming that they are positioned point blank so the bullet wouldn't lose any velocity, the gun being used is a semi-automatic and the bullet dumps all kinetic energy into the person being shot. The shooter should feel less of a kick because it's being dampened by the rearward movement of the bolt and recoil spring. Right?
The felt recoil would be lesser for the shooter, because the recoiling bolt assembly spreads the recoil forces out over a longer period of time. If you took two people floating in space, and one shot the other point blank, and the bullet stopped in that person, and then you measured the rate at which they were moving away from eachother (ignoring the energy lost in bullet deformation and flesh heating/tearing) they would be moving away from the respective center between them at the same speed. (if you dont ignore the energy lost to bullet deformation etc, the shooter would actually be moving faster)


At least this is what I have been taught as a textbook example in both my Physics and AP Physics classes in highschool, and it makes logical sense.
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  #130  
Old 02-10-2010, 5:59 PM
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Great pictures...I'll take the .308 over the 5.56 all day long. Goes thruogh that pesky level VI vest too.
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  #131  
Old 02-10-2010, 6:00 PM
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I believe that is the perception of more or less recoil. I believe they are just talking about the amount of total energy created from recoil. Where things like bolts, buffers and brakes come into play manipulate things like the gases to increase or decrease the feelings of recoil.

But knockdown power is a myth, the energy of a bullet isn't enough to knockdown a person (atleast someone who is not completely unaware). The kinetic energy alone may be enough to knock down a person, but that energy doesn't 100% go into the person. A large amount of that energy is spent during the flight and creating the wound. This myth probably comes from Hollywood. People who go down, go down because of the damage the round creates both pysically and psychologically.

Or atleast that is the extent of my understanding.

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Originally Posted by Toast View Post
Just for discussion sake, wouldn't the person/object being shot feel more of a kick then the shooter? Assuming that they are positioned point blank so the bullet wouldn't lose any velocity, the gun being used is a semi-automatic and the bullet dumps all kinetic energy into the person being shot. The shooter should feel less of a kick because it's being dampened by the rearward movement of the bolt and recoil spring. Right?
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  #132  
Old 02-10-2010, 6:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh3239 View Post
I believe that is the perception of more or less recoil. I believe they are just talking about the amount of total energy created from recoil. Where things like bolts, buffers and brakes come into play manipulate things like the gases to increase or decrease the feelings of recoil.

But knockdown power is a myth, the energy of a bullet isn't enough to knockdown a person (atleast someone who is not completely unaware). The kinetic energy alone may be enough to knock down a person, but that energy doesn't 100% go into the person. A large amount of that energy is spent during the flight and creating the wound. This myth probably comes from Hollywood. People who go down, go down because of the damage the round creates both pysically and psychologically.

Or atleast that is the extent of my understanding.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCzD5uhSViY

go to 7:10 and watch for a minute
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Last edited by nrakid88; 02-10-2010 at 6:07 PM..
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  #133  
Old 02-10-2010, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by corporateslave View Post
Just so everyone can see, I have expanded the .308 image so that the 5.56 and .308 are roughly the same scale:



higher res version here:
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...08vs556big.jpg
Hey, would you mind doing the same to these two images? I never took into account that scale ratio so for these two it will appear that the .308 is even more powerful than I once thought.

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  #134  
Old 02-10-2010, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh3239 View Post
I believe that is the perception of more or less recoil. I believe they are just talking about the amount of total energy created from recoil. Where things like bolts, buffers and brakes come into play manipulate things like the gases to increase or decrease the feelings of recoil.

But knockdown power is a myth, the energy of a bullet isn't enough to knockdown a person (atleast someone who is not completely unaware). The kinetic energy alone may be enough to knock down a person, but that energy doesn't 100% go into the person. A large amount of that energy is spent during the flight and creating the wound. This myth probably comes from Hollywood. People who go down, go down because of the damage the round creates both pysically and psychologically.

Or atleast that is the extent of my understanding.
I was thinking more about felt "recoil" (if that's even the correct word) rather then "knock down power".

Even though a bullet doesn't have enough energy to knock someone off their feet, I can see it being enough to throw someone off balance if they were running/jumping/ balancing etc or especially if they were just not expecting it.


edit: here you go NRAkid


Last edited by Toast; 02-10-2010 at 6:25 PM..
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  #135  
Old 02-10-2010, 6:30 PM
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If it will knock the shooter off balance it'll knock the target off balance. Its the same energy (well less on the receiving end) on both sides.
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"Energy cannot be created or destroyed"
And thank you Toast, that makes me an even firmer believer in .308 expanding rounds, before I realized the size ratio issue, it appeared .308 was only marginally better, but the image you have given puts .308 in a different league.
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  #136  
Old 02-10-2010, 6:31 PM
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In an attempt to bring things back into perspective, I think most us will agree that both .223 and .308 are capable of killing enemy combatants. This discussing started out as a discussion about the advantages and disadvantages of each round. I don't think anyone is foolish enough to claim that either round will not do devastating damage to the bullet recipient.

After reading everyone's posts I can say with certainty that there are huge gaps of variables missing in this discussion. Such as:

1. Bullet type. No one has talked about m855 which is 62gr and has a steel core penetrator, and how it does not fragment at all like M193 55gr. FMJ, HP, and SP rounds all behave VERY differently.

2. Velocity. Almost all of the advantages of the .223 round come from the fragmentation of the bullet. .223 fragmentation requires incredible velocity, but there hasn't been a single chart showing how quickly .223 slows down. .223 only fragments at very close range. At longer range the bullets behave very differently.

3. Examples. Most examples are irrevalent. Bullets do CRAZY things. A BB gun can kill a man instanty if the stars and planets line up correctly. That doesn't mean shooting BB's is a good idea when trying to incapacitate a threat. Identifying trends that occur again and again among independent instances is very difficult.

4. The situation of the shooter. Someone defending their family has a very different set of circumstances than a soldier on a battlefield yeilding a fully automatic rifle. This is significant.

All of that being said, I love terminal wound ballistics discussions. I encourage everyone to do as much research as possible into this subject.
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  #137  
Old 02-10-2010, 6:35 PM
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Originally Posted by nrakid88 View Post
You need to read up on what those things mean, as it is clear you are misunderstanding them. The lighter shaded bulges are temporary cavities, which means on a slow motion xray video, thats how much the cavity opened up during being shot. However, once they went back, because tissues are elastic, the darker shaded areas are the perminent cavities, where the hole really is. So in the two you refferenced, although the temporary cavities are similiar, the permanent cavity of the .308 fmj is a joke compared to the permanent cavity of the 5.56 fmj. And there is debate to weather a temporary cavity by itself is a wounding mechanism.
I understand what those things mean, I simply made the images the same scale without saying anything. I think you read in between the lines a little too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrakid88 View Post
Hey, would you mind doing the same to these two images? I never took into account that scale ratio so for these two it will appear that the .308 is even more powerful than I once thought.
Sure, here you go:


Slightly bigger version here:
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t.../308vs556b.jpg

EDIT:
Doh looks like Toast beat me to it!
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Last edited by corporateslave; 02-10-2010 at 6:39 PM.. Reason: Toast beat me!
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  #138  
Old 02-10-2010, 6:37 PM
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"Energy cannot be created or destroyed"

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Originally Posted by nrakid88 View Post
If it will knock the shooter off balance it'll knock the target off balance. Its the same energy (well less on the receiving end) on both sides.
That's in theory. However, there's the dynamic energy transfer that changes the outcome of the results between the shooter and the target.

Knock-Down is not literally knocking the targets (Persons) off their feet, but the effect of the energy which might disrupt the bio-chemical functions, temporarily or permanently.
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  #139  
Old 02-10-2010, 6:37 PM
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I appologize if I insulted your intelligence, apparently it was I who misunderstood. Having said that the 5.56 fmj still whips the .308 fmj inside 200 yards.

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Originally Posted by corporateslave View Post
I understand what those things mean, I simply made the images the same scale without saying anything. I think you read in between the lines a little too much.



Sure, here you go:


Slightly bigger version here:
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t.../308vs556b.jpg
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  #140  
Old 02-10-2010, 6:38 PM
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"Energy cannot be created or destroyed"



That's in theory. However, there's the dynamic energy transfer that changes the outcome of the results between the shooter and the target.

Knock-Down is not literally knocking the targets (Persons) off their feet, but the effect of the energy which might disrupt the bio-chemical functions, temporarily or permanently.

So what your calling knock down I would call DRT (dead right there). Guess we were at a misunderstanding.
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  #141  
Old 02-10-2010, 7:07 PM
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  #142  
Old 02-10-2010, 7:13 PM
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So what your calling knock down I would call DRT (dead right there). Guess we were at a misunderstanding.
In this context, both 308 and 5.56 might not have the ability to do DRT, unless the CNS is shutdown or failed because loss of support (ie. blood).
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Old 02-10-2010, 8:19 PM
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GD do I live this thread so damn entertaining
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  #144  
Old 02-10-2010, 9:00 PM
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So what your calling knock down I would call DRT (dead right there). Guess we were at a misunderstanding.
I think you should call DRT "Down right there" instead of dead. DRT in the way you talk about just doesnt happen usually
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  #145  
Old 02-10-2010, 9:01 PM
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Fragmentation doesnt mean DRT. Theres lots of stories about the M16 being ineffective in Vietnam. Perhaps the guy got lucky and didnt get hit in any vitals or maybe there wasnt enough vital damage to put him down right there. OR maybe he was a bad ***.

Remember, that one 18-20 year old kid got 13 .223 ballistic tip rds put in him and he was still going. Sometimes people just dont die fast.
I had a mad squirrel take 12 .22 pellet shots before it died. He would not go down and others 1 shot and they are DRT.
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  #146  
Old 02-10-2010, 9:17 PM
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Why are those two .308 pictures so inconsistent? Different types of ammo?
This is one of the best ".223 vs. .308" threads ever made.

Why has a scientific experiment not been conducted.. you can make homemade ballistic gelatin, although not the same as fbi standards it would serve well enough to show the difference between the two bullets..
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Old 02-10-2010, 9:53 PM
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Why are those two .308 pictures so inconsistent? Different types of ammo?
This is one of the best ".223 vs. .308" threads ever made.

Why has a scientific experiment not been conducted.. you can make homemade ballistic gelatin, although not the same as fbi standards it would serve well enough to show the difference between the two bullets..
Yes, Soft point vs full metal jacket. Were actually citing scientific experiments done by Fackler on pigs, using slow motion xray video's (something I doubt any of us has access too), he simply sketched what he observed, and those sketches are what you are seeing.
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5.56 vs. 308? http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=267737
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Old 02-10-2010, 9:55 PM
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Agh, I wish Fackler could have tested the newer 75-77 grain 5.56 loads, those might help the 5.56 out a little, but still I am sure the .308 would still be head and shoulder above the 5.56.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:02 PM
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I had a mad squirrel take 12 .22 pellet shots before it died. He would not go down and others 1 shot and they are DRT.
You know what, that happened to me once. My dad shot a squirrel with my Gamo 1000fps .177 and he woke me up to tell me. It wedged itself in between these things...(rest of story after picture)



I went out there to kill it and seriously put 13+ pellets into the back of its head and body and it would not die. The head would "snap/bob" real hard from the headshot impacts but it stayed alive for quite some time. Once it died it got all dry and hard and I would go in my back yard and shoot at it every day. Chunks of fur would come off but it stayed in tact fairly well for all of those pellets going into it. Then one day after months and months of it being there, it just disappeared. To this day I still wonder where it went
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:42 PM
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it just disappeared. To this day I still wonder where it went
apparently something was hungry. hope it didnt get lead poisoning!
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:22 PM
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apparently something was hungry. hope it didnt get lead poisoning!
If it did get lead poisoning I hope it was one of those endagnered condors. I can't wait for them to either be not endangered, or extinct, so I can use regular ammo to hunt.

Oh Jpach, I would say those rounds were glancing off its skull... however animals (like those rats we had to deal with) can move a lot without a head attached.
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:05 AM
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If it did get lead poisoning I hope it was one of those endagnered condors. I can't wait for them to either be not endangered, or extinct, so I can use regular ammo to hunt.

Oh Jpach, I would say those rounds were glancing off its skull... however animals (like those rats we had to deal with) can move a lot without a head attached.
Haha wow I forgot about those rats. Im surprised we didnt get the plague after.....what we did...
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:35 AM
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Just another way to look at it. If you goto http://www.federalpremium.com and look through their rifle ammunition you will find that of all the .223/5.56 rounds listed only 2 are considered even useful against medium game whereas when you goto .308/7.62 you find that all of them are rated for medium game with quite a few being rated for heavy game. Another ammunition manufacture with slightly different categories lists .223 as a varmit round but .308 as a dangerous game round. Just something to consider. If your manufacture doesnt suggest you shoot anything larger then a coyote maybe a 200lb angry man is a little much.
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Old 02-11-2010, 6:14 AM
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If your manufacture doesnt suggest you shoot anything larger then a coyote maybe a 200lb angry man is a little much.
Apples and oranges. Animals and humans are not built the same (humans are generally more flimsy).
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Old 02-11-2010, 6:37 AM
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Apples and oranges. Animals and humans are not built the same (humans are generally more flimsy).
Yeah but I have never heard of a animal shooting back, I think guns make up for muscle, claw, and teeth.
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Old 02-11-2010, 7:15 AM
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I like both rounds but every shot I've seen with a .308 vs. 5.56 is always a clean little hole with .308 being a little bigger. If either round hit someones head properly I'm pretty sure that person will have a splitting headache. Seriously though, I've seen a few people shot with both calibers and the .308 leaves a fairly straight hole. The 5.56 on the other hand I saw a guy get shot in the gut and the round came out of his foot. And besides poor shot placement lots of the guys we fight against now are doped up so they might not go down due to that.
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Old 02-11-2010, 9:08 AM
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That 5.56 diagram everyone keeps referring to is for a 55gr FMJ lead core bullet. That is not the bullet used by the military now (62gr steel core).

If you want to do damage to a human target use soft point bullets. Look at the difference between the .308 FMJ and .308 soft point bullets in this thread.
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:50 AM
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That 5.56 diagram everyone keeps referring to is for a 55gr FMJ lead core bullet. That is not the bullet used by the military now (62gr steel core).

If you want to do damage to a human target use soft point bullets. Look at the difference between the .308 FMJ and .308 soft point bullets in this thread.
True, but the current assessment is that the newer heavier bullets (62 to 68+) are not much better either.

Its also true that soft point tends to transfer more energy which is a reason it is used for hunting. But, its a no no for use in war.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:54 AM
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Its also true that soft point tends to transfer more energy which is a reason it is used for hunting. But, its a no no for use in war.
SP bullets are a helluva lot more effective than FMJ bullets. The Hague convention prohibits SP bullets from use in war, which is why our military uses FMJ. Militarys try very hard to create gimmick FMJ bullets that behave more like SP bullets. The British .303 bullet with front 1/3 aluminum or wood and rear 2/3 lead made the bullet immediately turn upon impact and cause huge damage compared to the 100% lead FMJ bullet. .223 fragmentation is a simar gimmick, using an acceptible FMJ.

The good news is as civilians we are not limited to FMJ. We can use SP in our rifles to protect ourselves.
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Old 02-21-2010, 4:21 PM
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the bullet used by the military now (62gr steel core).
Incorrect. The M855/SS109 is not a steel-core bullet. It is merely a lead-core FMJBT with a steel "penetrator button" housed in the tip. It is a longer, heavier bullet (best stabilized by a 1:7" BBL, per mil-spec) with more penetration capabilities than the M193 (55gr.). However, it is not an AP projectile.
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