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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #81  
Old 11-17-2017, 5:15 PM
Montu Montu is offline
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Consitionmal carry states haven't burned to the ground yet even with people carrying that have little to no training, chances are low any one person will need to pull their weapon, and if they do chances are even lower shots will need to be fired. If that moment comes it's their right to defend themselves with whatever they can regardless of training or proficiency.

We should only strongly encourage training, not require it.
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  #82  
Old 11-17-2017, 6:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobG View Post
True, but there is a difference between "right" and "responsibility." I said the same thing in the past as you. Then I went to a ccw class and watched others shoot. Some were even doing re-quals. Lets just say I do not want to be anywhere near them if they ever start shooting at someone.

ACfixer stated it very well.


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Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
That's a good question, one that my friends and I have discussed at some length and there's really no definitive answer that we can agree upon.

First of all, while I believe God gives and allows us to have anything including our next breath, the right to bear arms was given to us in this country by our forefathers and yes I like to feel with God's guidance, but we have that whole separation of church and state thing so I'll say for the sake of this discussion the right was given to us by some really good men in 1791.

Let me ask you this... I saw two women missing the B27 target completely at our CCW class. Completely, from 15 feet away. One of them was hitting close to zero out of ten. Dirt flying up three feet to the left and ten feet long. Classic squint and squeeze, gals afraid of their weapons. Do you want that person carrying a loaded weapon in public, and are you doing her any favors by allowing it? Because she's not going to hit a bad guy with that bullet, she couldn't hit cardboard at 15 feet without any threat at all. By the end of the class the great instructors had them on target. I felt a little better about them carrying and I'll bet they did too.

If you feel it's a good idea with to have people with no firearms knowledge or safety training to be carrying concealed weapons in public, we'll just have to disagree. I understand where you are coming from and I'd rather err on the side of freedom over regulation, but I don't mind interjecting common sense into the equation. If we are to have zero restrictions and "shall not be infringed" is taken to the end we should all be able to carry full auto weapons wherever we want. I don't read anything in the 2nd amendment that says I can't get wasted in a bar and pack an MP5 in case a guy comes at me with a pool cue.

I guess for better or worse (mostly worse) we've drawn some lines over the years and while I feel there should be little or no restrictions to carrying, I don't mind having something in place for the protection of others if that person is to carry around the public because I honestly believe in math and the laws of probability. If that person is more likely to shoot a bystander or themselves than they are someone posing danger to them, why not get them the help they need to tilt the scales in their (and our) favor?


With great freedom comes great responsibility. I can not control what any other person does and does not do. I'm not willing to give up parts of my freedom for the sake of a little more safety.

I don't have much time now, so I may come back and give more complete answers.
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  #83  
Old 11-17-2017, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NorCalFocus View Post
With great freedom comes great responsibility. I can not control what any other person does and does not do. I'm not willing to give up parts of my freedom for the sake of a little more safety.

I don't have much time now, so I may come back and give more complete answers.
So true. And I am not advocating mandatory anything. Only the hope that when those that do and can exercise their 2A, they be responsible and receive training.
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  #84  
Old 11-17-2017, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by NorCalFocus View Post
With great freedom comes great responsibility. I can not control what any other person does and does not do. I'm not willing to give up parts of my freedom for the sake of a little more safety.
Sure you are, you do it every day and I can give you a dozen examples. But... we've jacked this thread pretty good already. I think it's a great discussion and if you want to start a thread in the appropriate forum we can continue it.
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  #85  
Old 11-18-2017, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by baggss View Post
Classes in Ventura County range from $150 to $600.....for both initial AND renewal...
Berdoo does their own training, so they maintain 100% control over the content and cost. They do not accept private training, but impress very strongly during initial and renewal classes that we should be shooting regularly AND seeking training.

But the more expensive training is a strong suggestion, not a requirement for getting your permit.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #86  
Old 11-18-2017, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by REDHORSE View Post
$100 is for the 8 hour class for initial CCW application.
That 8 hours includes 3.75 hours standing on the line out at the range waiting to fire 10-30 rounds.
It's a 4 hour class.

Some counties require 16 hours, 8 classroom and 8 live fire.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #87  
Old 11-18-2017, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Montu View Post
Consitionmal carry states haven't burned to the ground yet even with people carrying that have little to no training
And CC states still have restrictions that do not apply to those who have a permit. Places that serve alcohol, for example, are often off-limits without a permit, but not prohibited with a permit, so long as the person carrying is not drinking.

And stretching that... How is it acceptable that having a drink eliminates a person's right to carry? No, of course I'm not arguing in favor of consuming alcohol while carrying... just raising yet another point that in NO state in this country is the right to carry (by a non-prohibited person) absolute.

You can't carry on school grounds in nearly every state... California was one of the last that actually allowed it with a permit.
Most states that are CC or shall-issue allow businesses to prohibit guns and the "no guns" sign carries the force of law... it doesn't in California. Worst that can happen here is IF asked to leave and we refuse, we can be charged with trespassing.

You can't carry in a Federal building occupied by Federal employees... in any state.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #88  
Old 11-18-2017, 1:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
Let me ask you this... I saw two women missing the B27 target completely at our CCW class. Completely, from 15 feet away. One of them was hitting close to zero out of ten. Dirt flying up three feet to the left and ten feet long. Classic squint and squeeze, gals afraid of their weapons. Do you want that person carrying a loaded weapon in public, and are you doing her any favors by allowing it? Because she's not going to hit a bad guy with that bullet, she couldn't hit cardboard at 15 feet without any threat at all.
While I understand the point you are making, I would say that I don't feel it's my right, or anyones right, to deny them their right just because they need more practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobG View Post
True, but there is a difference between "right" and "responsibility." I said the same thing in the past as you. Then I went to a ccw class and watched others shoot. Some were even doing re-quals. Lets just say I do not want to be anywhere near them if they ever start shooting at someone.
Not everyone can shoot 10 for 10 in the bulls-eye, but at least they are trying to take responsibility for their own lives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Montu View Post
Consitionmal carry states haven't burned to the ground yet even with people carrying that have little to no training, chances are low any one person will need to pull their weapon, and if they do chances are even lower shots will need to be fired. If that moment comes it's their right to defend themselves with whatever they can regardless of training or proficiency.

We should only strongly encourage training, not require it.
^^^THIS!!!^^^
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  #89  
Old 11-18-2017, 2:06 AM
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your problem started with living in Sacramento
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