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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 07-14-2018, 1:06 PM
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Default Fixed mag release comparison

I've seen a handful of different products out there to make AR-platform rifles compliant without registration or going featureless. Essentially, the products look the same and function the same but I'm curious if there are opinions of which are the best.

I've heard of some that hold the upper receiver rather than fully pivoting on the front take-down pin. Maybe these have a pushbutton release rather than rear take-down pin. Others have an extended rear take-down pin and lanyard to make the pin easier to pull.

Also, it seems some come with 2-part epoxy used to fill in the mag release nut and others do not. I imagine this is to prevent removal of the mag release so as to prevent removal and installation of a non-compliant mag release without disassembly of the action.

What is everyone seeing used and which are superior? Asking for a friend.
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Old 07-14-2018, 1:07 PM
Michael777 Michael777 is offline
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I think I want to go with the juggernaut hellfighter. Seems like the most ergonomic
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Old 07-14-2018, 1:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael777 View Post
I think I want to go with the juggernaut hellfighter. Seems like the most ergonomic
The kingpin improves upon this. I've seen both in action (personally have a hybrid) and is a decent compromise if you don't want to go featureless.


There was also a DOJ opinion released some time ago that made mention of that "style" of mag lock being compliant. Don't quote me though.
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Old 07-14-2018, 1:37 PM
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Originally Posted by dwinters14 View Post
The kingpin improves upon this. I've seen both in action (personally have a hybrid) and is a decent compromise if you don't want to go featureless.


There was also a DOJ opinion released some time ago that made mention of that "style" of mag lock being compliant. Don't quote me though.
Hybrid? What do you mean? You have 2 devices on one rifle?
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Old 07-14-2018, 1:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texas_law_dog View Post
I've heard of some that hold the upper receiver rather than fully pivoting on the front take-down pin.
The problem with these (ARMAGLOCK is Kingpin is a good example) is that they may also allow the rifle to fire while the action is cracked open, which would make it an assault weapon under California law.
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2018, 1:44 PM
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This is all helpful. Thanks! Any other recommendations are welcome.

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Old 07-14-2018, 1:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael777 View Post
Hybrid? What do you mean? You have 2 devices on one rifle?
Juggernaut takedown pin with the armaglock.

I didnt wait for the kingpin and made my own hybrid.

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  #8  
Old 07-14-2018, 1:52 PM
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Do these use epoxy? Is the mag release prevented from removal with the action closed?

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Old 07-14-2018, 1:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Califpatriot View Post
The problem with these (ARMAGLOCK is Kingpin is a good example) is that they may also allow the rifle to fire while the action is cracked open, which would make it an assault weapon under California law.
That is some interpretations of reading into the laws(maybe over reading) by some, the other argument has been that in that scenario it's then a single-shot rifle, same as a bolt-action since it won't eject or feed another round. I've also yet to see anyone try or be willing to try and fire their rifle with the action open, so all anyone is able to do is assume...again not saying you are right or wrong, just stating the other side of the coin too.
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Old 07-14-2018, 2:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwinters14 View Post
Juggernaut takedown pin with the armaglock.

I didnt wait for the kingpin and made my own hybrid.

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Why do you have both?

With the juggernaut the action opens all the way? By adding the armaglock it only allows it to pivot a tiny bit?
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  #11  
Old 07-14-2018, 3:04 PM
4GLOCK30 4GLOCK30 is offline
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OP

There are various "opinions" on if the limited release takedown pin ones do in fact conform to the newest laws.

As in this thread that notes the gun can possibly be fired with the upper slightly separated (not saying it can or can't) but if it did the action would not cycle to load another round thus making it a single shot rifle as mentioned by someone else

Lawyers will make $ litigating what is or is not compliant.

The original ARMaglock just had a regular takedown pin with a ring on it for easier removal and the upper could completely flop open. That type of "fixed mag" device appears to conform exactly as the current law notes as acceptable to allow a mag to then be released with a revised mag release button that does not function if the upper & lower are attached. The lower is so far away from the upper that the trigger hammer could not hit the firing pin so no round would fire even if one was chambered.

I know for fact that Daniel Defense made, sold and shipped full feature AR's to CA FFL with the ARMaglock (my friend bought one 2 months ago). I suspect DD and CA FFL had legal council opinions supporting that device use as a CA compliant "fixed mag" device

Other types of devices install by eliminating the bolt catch and using that location to mount their device. IMHO you want to maintain the bolt release function on a AR

Then there is a new offering called the Hyperswitch….which is a thumb activated takedown pin that allows the upper to come completely open. There is also a revised buffer plug that if used in conjunction with this Hyperswitch only allows the upper to partially open...….but further than a Kingpin or Juggernaut (Hellfighter) pin does. IDK if a round can be fired with this new modified buffer plug or not.

Sadly there is grey areas yet to be litigated but if you have a device that prevents the mag from being released with the upper & lower normally attached but mag does release if the upper is moved far enough away for the "action to be interrupted and will not function"....you are good to go.

As far as epoxy, thread lock or drilling out heads of alan screws that hold on some of these fixed mag devices. There is currently no language that says that these fixed mag release devices need to be "permanently" attached to the gun in the new laws. Some manufactures just include it as a way to make it so the mag could not be released with the upper & lower attached and use a tool (alan wrench) to then remove the mag. Needless to say this is not a quick process but there are opinions that using a "tool" to remove a magazine (with upper & lower attached) makes it non compliant (read "opinions"). IMHO if in fact one did chose to glue or drill out the alan head but then needed to remove the device for whatever reason for servicing the gun than one would have to drill out the alan head screw (last I checked a drill is a "tool") or solder gun (another tool) to loosen loc-tite….so where the legal debate would end on what constitutes a tool would be endless.
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  #12  
Old 07-14-2018, 3:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4GLOCK30 View Post
IMHO if in fact one did chose to glue or drill out the alan head but then needed to remove the device for whatever reason for servicing the gun than one would have to drill out the alan head screw (last I checked a drill is a "tool") or solder gun (another tool) to loosen loc-titeÖ.so where the legal debate would end on what constitutes a tool would be endless.
This is my fear. Ultimately, a tool could be used to change magazines, though the destructive nature and corresponding extremely slow mag change seems to comply at least with the spirit of the law.

Your post is very informative. I appreciate the lengthy analysis. Thanks!
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Old 07-14-2018, 3:50 PM
4GLOCK30 4GLOCK30 is offline
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I am not a lawyer....just in the same boat as 1.5 million CA AR owners

from the "final" language of the new laws regarding what needs to be registered as a "assault weapon":

(c) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle with an ammunition feeding device that can be readily
removed from the firearm with the use of a tool, commonly referred to as a bullet-button
weapon, that has one or more specified features identified in Penal Code section 30515 is
included in the category of firearms that must be registered.


I read that "readily" refers to the "quick" release of the magazine using a "bullet button" which is the specific type of AR the new registration is after. Not using a "tool" over the course of minutes on a non operating gun to fix it

Obviously lawyers for both sides of interpreting the word "readily" will beat that to death

I will note though that in a double feed jam you can't drop the magazine by removing the rear takedown pin regardless of what type it is as the bolt is held back because of the jam the upper won't seperate. You would need to remove the front pin and lift forward and up to get the upper off which then slams the bolt forward...with 2 live rounds in the action.

I would rather just loosen the alan screw enough to then drop the mag to then clear the jam. Yes that is using a "tool" but by no means in a "readily" fashion...just my $.02 and again I am not a lawyer
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Old 07-14-2018, 4:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Califpatriot View Post
The problem with these (ARMAGLOCK is Kingpin is a good example) is that they may also allow the rifle to fire while the action is cracked open, which would make it an assault weapon under California law.
Definition of semi auto is trigger press, boom, shell extract and load new round. When its opened, it doesnt cycle, therefore not semi auto in that condition.
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Old 07-14-2018, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4GLOCK30 View Post
I am not a lawyer....just in the same boat as 1.5 million CA AR owners

from the "final" language of the new laws regarding what needs to be registered as a "assault weapon":

(c) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle with an ammunition feeding device that can be readily
removed from the firearm with the use of a tool, commonly referred to as a bullet-button
weapon, that has one or more specified features identified in Penal Code section 30515 is
included in the category of firearms that must be registered.


I read that "readily" refers to the "quick" release of the magazine using a "bullet button" which is the specific type of AR the new registration is after. Not using a "tool" over the course of minutes on a non operating gun to fix it

Obviously lawyers for both sides of interpreting the word "readily" will beat that to death

I will note though that in a double feed jam you can't drop the magazine by removing the rear takedown pin regardless of what type it is as the bolt is held back because of the jam the upper won't seperate. You would need to remove the front pin and lift forward and up to get the upper off which then slams the bolt forward...with 2 live rounds in the action.

I would rather just loosen the alan screw enough to then drop the mag to then clear the jam. Yes that is using a "tool" but by no means in a "readily" fashion...just my $.02 and again I am not a lawyer
If readily doesnt mean quick, that means no matter what, itll be illegal since any rifle could readily be made into any configuration since time allows.

Readily = quickly imo.
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Old 07-14-2018, 5:13 PM
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If my beer is in my hand it’s readily available, if it’s in my fridge it’s not readily available

Same applies here in the language.
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Old 07-14-2018, 5:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingShooter View Post
If my beer is in my hand itís readily available, if itís in my fridge itís not readily available

Same applies here in the language.
Genius #reverend
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  #18  
Old 07-14-2018, 5:46 PM
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This discussion is great. IMHO, though, the fact that there must be a discussion and best guesses as to what is or is not legal puts those trying to be law-abiding citizens at risk. I prefer to err on the side of caution.
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Old 07-15-2018, 1:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texas_law_dog View Post
This discussion is great. IMHO, though, the fact that there must be a discussion and best guesses as to what is or is not legal puts those trying to be law-abiding citizens at risk. I prefer to err on the side of caution.
These laws are extremely disrespectful to the 2nd amendment. Our rights are clearly being infringed upon. I donít understand why we are being enslaved in this state and we canít do anything about it.
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Old 07-15-2018, 9:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael777 View Post
These laws are extremely disrespectful to the 2nd amendment.
Couldn't agree more. The problem with these laws is that they illegally attempt to strip away a Constitutional Amendment. That's why there will always be a workaround.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:10 PM
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I currently have the LWRC California compliant M61C. This setup is perfect with the Juggernaut hellfighter quick pin. It already has the “fixed mag” setup. I used the other part of the juggernaut hellfighter kit which was the magazine lock portion of it on another AR. With using the maglock part of the kit I can still keep my regular mag release button.
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