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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 07-11-2018, 6:21 PM
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Default Sharp et al vs Becerra, 7/18: Gun Groups Sue Over Faulty Registration System

I'm not seeing it posted yet, but could have just missed it. So, Moderators, if this is a dupe...

California Gun Groups Sue Over Faulty Registration System

Quote:
Gun owners' rights groups sued Wednesday over a California firearms registration system they claim puts law-abiding gun owners at risk of criminal charges.

The lawsuit against state Attorney General Xavier Becerra and his Department of Justice alleges that the system for registering so-called bullet-button assault weapons was unavailable for most of the week before the July 1 deadline.

The bullet buttons allow users to rapidly exchange ammunition magazines on an assault-style weapon by using a small tool or the tip of a bullet.

Owners who were unable to register by the deadline now potentially face prosecution through no fault of their own, according to the lawsuit filed in Shasta County on behalf of three gun owners by The Calguns Foundation, Second Amendment Foundation, Firearms Policy Coalition and Firearms Policy Foundation.

Becerra's office did not respond to telephone and email messages.

Transporting an unregistered assault weapon, even to a shooting range, can be charged as a felony under California law, with a prison sentence ranging from four to six years.

The suit says gun owners tried repeatedly to register their weapons using different web browsers, hardware and multiple devices but failed because the system repeatedly crashed or timed out before their applications were completed.

The suit asks a judge to give owners more time to register using a working registration system.

"For a whole week the system was largely inaccessible, so people who wanted to comply with the law simply couldn't and now they face becoming criminals because they couldn't do what the law requires," said Alan Gottlieb, founder and executive vice president of the Second Amendment Foundation.

The suit alleges that state justice officials knew the registration system was flawed and understaffed and had a substantial backlog despite a temporary infusion of nearly $2.6 million and 27 employees.
Here's a copy of the complaint filed...

Sharp, et al. v Becerra, et al.

Quote:
In this case, Plaintiffs seek an un-extraordinary result, compelled by the basic tenets of due process: That they simply be allowed to register their eligible firearms and comply with the law, and that the Attorney General, the DOJ, and their officers and agents similarly comply with the law by allowing such registrations and ensuring they are properly and timely processed through a functioning online database as they have been required by statute to do.

Last edited by TrappedinCalifornia; 07-11-2018 at 6:42 PM..
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Old 07-11-2018, 6:24 PM
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How can they possibly NOT handle the 6 people who registered, 5 of which are members here!?
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Old 07-11-2018, 6:30 PM
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How can they possibly NOT handle the 6 people who registered, 5 of which are members here!?
No I'm a member too.
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Old 07-11-2018, 6:42 PM
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For a system that was supposed to handle up to 1.5 million estimated firearms, they did a piss poor job of handling two orders of magnitude less than the estimate. What a complete fuster cluck.
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Old 07-11-2018, 7:20 PM
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Don't forget it took them how many months AFTER THE LAW KICKED IN to get the system up and online?
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Old 07-11-2018, 7:26 PM
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The State of California created this back up on purpose. Do you think the State office responsible for admitting illegal aliens, tuition free, to our colleges had such a back up?

The State of California is now and anti-white, anti-native, anti-English speaking, anti-property owner, anti-Republican, ANTI-FIREARM administration which makes BAD FAITH decisions and takes discriminatory action based on their prejudices.

If the current state officials had their way they would change the state flag from a brown bear to Ceasar Chavez riding a burro and find a way to pronounce "California" is some Spanish accent.
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Old 07-11-2018, 7:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbekannt View Post
The State of California created this back up on purpose. Do you think the State office responsible for admitting illegal aliens, tuition free, to our colleges had such a back up?

The State of California is now and anti-white, anti-native, anti-English speaking, anti-property owner, anti-Republican, ANTI-FIREARM administration which makes BAD FAITH decisions and takes discriminatory action based on their prejudices.

If the current state officials had their way they would change the state flag from a brown bear to Ceasar Chavez riding a burro and find a way to pronounce "California" is some Spanish accent.
He's pretty close
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Old 07-11-2018, 7:58 PM
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If we keep attacking sooner or later progress will result.
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Old 07-11-2018, 8:10 PM
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Litigation - moved.
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Old 07-11-2018, 8:48 PM
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https://www.redstate.com/jenvanlaar/...ation-website/

Great read from redstate
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Old 07-12-2018, 7:07 AM
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Maybe we blew the system up...like 200k guns were registered. Each application takes 20min to review, thatís 66,666 hours or 1,666 - 40hr work weeks. Say they have 20 full time employees, thatís 83 weeks per employee to complete the backlog. Itís just not doable.


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Old 07-12-2018, 7:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Bete Noire View Post
Maybe we blew the system up...like 200k guns were registered. Each application takes 20min to review, thatís 66,666 hours or 1,666 - 40hr work weeks. Say they have 20 full time employees, thatís 83 weeks per employee to complete the backlog. Itís just not doable.


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But they knew this. They had estimated about 1.5M firearms, and asked for $2.6M more money and hired 27 more employees. So... with same criteria

1.5M x 20 / 60 / 40 = 12,500 work weeks. Divide up say 30 folks = 416 weeks per employee. 52 weeks in a year, that's 8 years per person LOL. Say they only spend 10 min per submission of 5 pictures that is still 4 years per person.

In reality, they spent more than 20 min on each submission as there are multiple accounts of incompletes and resubmissions.

So from the getgo, they knew it would not have worked. They just used it to get more funding and more people.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:26 AM
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Maybe DOJ knew this lawsuit was coming and as a result withdrew the AW regs in hopes of being able to tell the judge no foul-no harm in reality. Maybe DOJ thought that would fly in a courtroom. One action might be the response to the other in trying to hold the state harmless and give them time to clean up the mess. of course that will mean more money and people. Just a thought
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:08 AM
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I just read the complaint, and it looks like all we're asking for is an opportunity to register for those who missed the deadline. That's good I guess, but not really earth-shattering.

Either way, hopefully we win, and hopefully it doesn't take 5 years.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:39 PM
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IMO, this suit is not as strong as it could be.

Pursue FTC violations as CFARS exposed Personally Identifiable Information.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I just read the complaint, and it looks like all we're asking for is an opportunity to register for those who missed the deadline. That's good I guess, but not really earth-shattering.

Either way, hopefully we win, and hopefully it doesn't take 5 years.
Litigation hasn't exactly panned out on 2A issues. I hope registration is extended, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:42 PM
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IMO, this suit is not as strong as it could be.

Pursue FTC violations as CFARS exposed Personally Identifiable Information.
How is that going to help the folks who tried to register but couldn't due to the system being down?
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Old 07-12-2018, 2:09 PM
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While I hope this is the stone that brings the whole AW registration Goliath down, I am pessimistic that this will simply open up the registration process up again for an indeterminate number of months.
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Old 07-12-2018, 3:24 PM
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The purpose of this suit is to extend registration. That is it. I don't know where you would have gotten the impression that it was in any way trying to abolish or alter the registration process.

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Originally Posted by 1911su16b870 View Post
While I hope this is the stone that brings the whole AW registration Goliath down, I am pessimistic that this will simply open up the registration process up again for an indeterminate number of months.
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Old 07-12-2018, 3:27 PM
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How is that going to help the folks who tried to register but couldn't due to the system being down?
Would give the suit more teeth. Feds take on CA to eliminate the entire BBRAW scheme.

In the interim, injunction is issued to stay enforcement on unregistered BB rifles and lift any and all requirements on current BBRAWs.
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Old 07-12-2018, 3:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootstrap View Post
Would give the suit more teeth. Feds take on CA to eliminate the entire BBRAW scheme.
It's unrelated, though. The plaintiffs are people who never got to register, thus their personal information was never leaked.

A complaint about that would be better attached to a different lawsuit that attacks the registration scheme as a whole, like Rupp v. Becerra.
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Old 07-12-2018, 4:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
It's unrelated, though. The plaintiffs are people who never got to register, thus their personal information was never leaked.

A complaint about that would be better attached to a different lawsuit that attacks the registration scheme as a whole, like Rupp v. Becerra.
Is it though? Was the info that was leaked limited to just people who registered? My wife has a CFARS account with personal info in it, but she does not have anything that needed to be registered, does that mean her info was safe somehow?
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Old 07-12-2018, 4:26 PM
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Does that matter? At best, the State can be forced to fix the error that let the data leak occur, notify all people affected by the leak, and pay damages. Why in the world would a crappy reg system or a data leak in any way nullify state law requiring registration? All they can do is be forced to fix the data leak issue, and extend the registration period. None of that has anything to do with the legality of SB880.

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Is it though? Was the info that was leaked limited to just people who registered? My wife has a CFARS account with personal info in it, but she does not have anything that needed to be registered, does that mean her info was safe somehow?
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Old 07-12-2018, 6:38 PM
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mit31 - it's another angle of attack.

There are Federal laws that require companies to keep sensitive data secure. Not sure if those same laws apply to state .govs but in this case we have unlawful disclosure of PII and firearms.
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Old 07-12-2018, 7:57 PM
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I hereby volunteer to personally examine and pass 100,000 applicants per day (as the troll stated in a registration thread) , all I need is gas money for the harley
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbekannt View Post
The State of California created this back up on purpose. Do you think the State office responsible for admitting illegal aliens, tuition free, to our colleges had such a back up?

The State of California is now and anti-white, anti-native, anti-English speaking, anti-property owner, anti-Republican, ANTI-FIREARM administration which makes BAD FAITH decisions and takes discriminatory action based on their prejudices.

If the current state officials had their way they would change the state flag from a brown bear to Ceasar Chavez riding a burro and find a way to pronounce "California" is some Spanish accent.
Remember - these same folks opened up DMV on Saturdays to process DL's for illegals. And all they need to register to vote is a valid SS# - they don't check to see if the valid SS# actually belongs to the person getting the DL. What was the % of DeLeon's family who he said had phony ID?
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Old 07-17-2018, 3:45 PM
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From LATimes today :

A lawsuit filed against the state by firearms groups, who campaigned against the new law, alleged some gun owners were unable to access the state website to register their guns before the deadline.

The DOJ denied the allegations in a statement, saying its website has been working correctly. A representative said the agency has not been served with any lawsuit, ďbut will be prepared to respond in court.Ē
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Old 07-17-2018, 4:04 PM
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Talk about habitual liars.
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Old 07-17-2018, 8:17 PM
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When even the Chicago Tribune runs a statement by the San Diego Union-Tribune Editorial Board entitled...

An unreasonable gun control law rollout

...you know there's trouble in Paradise.

Quote:
Gov. Jerry Brown and California’s legislative leaders won plaudits from opponents of America’s pervasive gun violence in 2016 when they banned the sale of semiautomatic rifles with “bullet buttons” that make it easy to quickly unload — and then load — ammunition magazines. Owners of the weapons that were purchased before the ban took effect last year were required to register their weapons with the state Department of Justice by June 30.

But a new lawsuit filed by several gun groups contends that the computer system to register the weapons wasn’t working in the days leading up to the deadline. This puts tens of thousands of Californians at risk of felony charges for transporting an unregistered assault weapon, with prison sentences possible of up to eight years. The gun groups say the failure of the registry system should have been anticipated by state Attorney General Xavier Becerra because of problems well before the deadline neared, and that the Department of Justice reacted indifferently to reports of online registration snags.

These claims are difficult to verify. But at the least, it’s a bad look for state government to botch the rollout of a reasonable gun control law. Gun owners who wanted to register but haven’t been able to shouldn’t face consequences. It’s another story for state bureaucrats who had plenty of advance notice and a clear deadline but didn’t get their jobs done — only starting with Becerra, who dropped a ball he didn’t need to and should be upfront about it.
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Old 07-18-2018, 3:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I just read the complaint, and it looks like all we're asking for is an opportunity to register for those who missed the deadline. That's good I guess, but not really earth-shattering.

Either way, hopefully we win, and hopefully it doesn't take 5 years.
This lawsuit does a lot more to legitimize the ban, and more bans like it, than it does to undermine it. The publicity it has gotten, and is going to continue to get, is a bunch gun control advocates patting each other on the back.

I think itís an awful idea.
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Old 07-18-2018, 2:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAD338 View Post
From LATimes today :

A lawsuit filed against the state by firearms groups, who campaigned against the new law, alleged some gun owners were unable to access the state website to register their guns before the deadline.

The DOJ denied the allegations in a statement, saying its website has been working correctly. A representative said the agency has not been served with any lawsuit, ďbut will be prepared to respond in court.Ē
I take this as an implied admission by DOJ that the website didn't have issues, it was working fine and doing specifically what it was designed to do and what the rogue criminal agency laughingly referred to as the "Department of Justice" wanted it to do - prevent law abiding Californians from obeying the law and registering their legally possessed rifles.

This is a sin of commission, not a sin of omission.
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Old 07-24-2018, 7:09 AM
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I said it once many months ago: Their site seems to have been put together by incompetent people. Heck, their entire database system for tracking firearms seems to have been put together by incompetent people.
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Old 07-24-2018, 7:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nopal View Post
I said it once many months ago: Their site seems to have been put together by incompetent people. Heck, their entire database system for tracking firearms seems to have been put together by incompetent people.
Agreed. Our tax dollars at work.
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nopal View Post
I said it once many months ago: Their site seems to have been put together by incompetent people. Heck, their entire database system for tracking firearms seems to have been put together by incompetent people.
When you use the cheapest provider, don't be surprised if you get the cheapest outcome (aka you gets what you pays for...).
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Old 07-30-2018, 12:34 AM
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Default CFARS shows in progress even after approval

The CFARS system is so flawed that anyone that registered and received by mail a confirmation of approved registration still shows up as "in Progress". So if the document was lost in the mail, they would not know they were approved.
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Old 07-30-2018, 1:38 AM
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I love you guys... I do... but if you had trouble registering your rifles, I think it was a DOS error. (Dumb Operator Syndrome).

I was in and out of the registration system several times leading up to the deadline. On the night of the deadline, I was on it non-stop for 4 hours uploading everything. I had some issues with chrome and firefox, but when I loaded the site in Internet Explorer, it was bullet-proof and completely available; fast even.

I waited WAY too long to register. Ultimately, if the system was down on the last day and I did not get my rifles registered in time, that's on me... not the state.
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Old 07-30-2018, 3:46 AM
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Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
I love you guys... I do... but if you had trouble registering your rifles, I think it was a DOS error. (Dumb Operator Syndrome).

I was in and out of the registration system several times leading up to the deadline. On the night of the deadline, I was on it non-stop for 4 hours uploading everything. I had some issues with chrome and firefox, but when I loaded the site in Internet Explorer, it was bullet-proof and completely available; fast even.

I waited WAY too long to register. Ultimately, if the system was down on the last day and I did not get my rifles registered in time, that's on me... not the state.
Ohh wow, sounds like a breeze! You only had to try through THREE different browsers to make it happen.

Unfortunately, there are many who don't even know what a browser is let alone that there are more options than the one installed on their computer....
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Old 07-30-2018, 7:40 AM
walmart_ar15 walmart_ar15 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
I love you guys... I do... but if you had trouble registering your rifles, I think it was a DOS error. (Dumb Operator Syndrome).

I was in and out of the registration system several times leading up to the deadline. On the night of the deadline, I was on it non-stop for 4 hours uploading everything. I had some issues with chrome and firefox, but when I loaded the site in Internet Explorer, it was bullet-proof and completely available; fast even.

I waited WAY too long to register. Ultimately, if the system was down on the last day and I did not get my rifles registered in time, that's on me... not the state.
Yes and No.

Yes, people should not procrastinate till the last minute.

No, being the law, the system should work all the way till 11:59 pm.
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  #39  
Old 07-30-2018, 7:58 AM
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cockedandglocked cockedandglocked is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walmart_ar15 View Post
Yes and No.

Yes, people should not procrastinate till the last minute.

No, being the law, the system should work all the way till 11:59 pm.
Agreed. Also a lot of people didn't find out about registration until a friend asked them the last week if they registered yet. But for anyone who knew about it months in advance, it's silly that they waited, we all knew there wasn't going to be a last minute injunction or anything and we all knew the system would be overloaded on the last day. Still, the law is the law and DOJ was supposed to make the system work for everyone until 11:59pm on June 30th, and they failed and should face consequences.
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Old 07-30-2018, 12:02 PM
aBrowningfan aBrowningfan is offline
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Originally Posted by yukondave View Post
The CFARS system is so flawed that anyone that registered and received by mail a confirmation of approved registration still shows up as "in Progress". So if the document was lost in the mail, they would not know they were approved.
There is an email notice sent by DoJ that precedes the hardcopy letter that is mailed. If you did not receive the hardcopy in say, 10 days after receiving the email notice, you could email or call about the missing letter.
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