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  #81  
Old 07-03-2012, 11:01 AM
Scuba Steve33 Scuba Steve33 is offline
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Originally Posted by NiteQwill View Post
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/0...school-051612/

BTW, you probably have the most condescending posts on the forum regardless of which topic area it is in. Are you still in the military? Probably not, you were likely one of those Soldiers lacking discipline with 4 in and out.
Why don't you explain that. What was your MOS? Excellent way to make yourself look like a jackass, though. Congrats.
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  #82  
Old 07-03-2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MrLogan View Post
If they can do the job as well as a male, then why not?
But they simply cannot. From my own personal experiences. When I was a MP we were deployed to Iraq, during the mobilization at Ft Dix the female soldiers were constantly falling out, failing to complete the more physically demanding training. One example, we had a road march, body armor (no plates even) and weapon, it wasn't even that far of a march, 5 miles maybe. Only one female was able to complete it, all the rest fell out and rode the truck back.

We had one female who had surgery on her ankle in training, and because she was such a lard butt, she never did the needed physical therapy to properly heal and her leg being weak coupled with the weight caused her ankle to break in country, thus she was sent home.

We had another female get pregnant while home on leave, and at least 3 that I know for positive that were basically running whore houses out of their rooms.

We lost half the females in the company even before we left Ft Dix due to medical issues, then once in country we lost the two mentioned above as well as at least one other that I remember due to family issues back home. Male soldiers sent home at Dix were to med issues (one bad heart and one bee allergy) and in country it was 2 due to injuries sustained from enemy contact, 1 due to seizures, and then we had three put on light duty, one from 6 concussions and 6 pr 7 pieces of shrapnel, another due to going nuts and the last due to a self inflicted injury.

When you get right down to it, we, as MPs, had less gear and did less than the infantry guys we worked with at times. So if the female soldiers were such failures at what they were given, what makes you think they would be able to handle the addition of more gear, more ammo, more distance to travel on foot, and all the extra stuff the infantry guys were doing?

I did 6 years in a light infantry scout platoon and now have been a forward observer for the last 2.5 years. I assure that 99.999999999% of women are incapable of doing the job, especially when you look at sustainment, some might be able to do it for brief periods of time, but not day in and day out for extended periods of time.
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  #83  
Old 07-03-2012, 1:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post
Why don't you explain that. What was your MOS? Excellent way to make yourself look like a jackass, though. Congrats.
If you can't comprehend my last post, then there is no further explanation needed.

You did do a great job of illustrating my point though. Well deserved.

What does it matter what my MOS is/was? Does it somehow validate something?
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  #84  
Old 07-03-2012, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by NiteQwill View Post
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/0...school-051612/

BTW, you probably have the most condescending posts on the forum regardless of which topic area it is in. Are you still in the military? Probably not, you were likely one of those Soldiers lacking discipline with 4 in and out.
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Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post
Why don't you explain that. What was your MOS? Excellent way to make yourself look like a jackass, though. Congrats.
Steve i will have to agree with NitQuill on some of your posts. they are quite condescending to say the least. i have no idea what rank you are and if your a NCO i would expect to you act the role in which you represent.

i have said some crazy stuff here and i won't deny it. but i do try not to discredit the NCO corps as a whole. what really gets me sometimes is that you compare everyone that is not infantry as lesser servicemen and women. respect is earned not given and i can hopefully assume you know that. calling everyone POG's in almost every post gets pretty stupid and repetitive at best. MOS has nothing to do with it and it should'nt be but throwing it around gets old.

i'm done on this part of the topic.
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  #85  
Old 07-03-2012, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by chris View Post
Steve i will have to agree with NitQuill on some of your posts. they are quite condescending to say the least. i have no idea what rank you are and if your a NCO i would expect to you act the role in which you represent.

i have said some crazy stuff here and i won't deny it. but i do try not to discredit the NCO corps as a whole. what really gets me sometimes is that you compare everyone that is not infantry as lesser servicemen and women. respect is earned not given and i can hopefully assume you know that. calling everyone POG's in almost every post gets pretty stupid and repetitive at best. MOS has nothing to do with it and it should'nt be but throwing it around gets old.

i'm done on this part of the topic.
Word , infantry needs helo Mechs, pilots , fighter pilots , tankers, tank mechanics, supply, artillery, admin, armorers, engineers, motor T, bulk fuel, ordnance, aviation ordnance, eod, heavy equipment operator..and the list goes on. I was a helo mech, I took pride in inspecting ah-1w's ad making sure they were safe for flight, my enlistment ended as my unit finally got to go to afghan (west pacs for a long time) my fellow plane captains and other mechs toiled to keep Huey's and cobras flying and putting warheads on foreheads. We didn't do it for recognition, but it sucks when you're treated like a piece o **** cause you happened to good on your asvab and chose a non grunt job. We respect an admire the hell out of grunts..it's rarely given in return .
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  #86  
Old 07-04-2012, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post
I'm guessing by your avatar you were 11B? Do you have a CIB (a legit one not the bull**** they hand out these days)? If so you're the first I've ever heard of saying any of this.

IDF women do not fight. You cannot compare LE to infantryman because you have a much higher population of LE. Just because women are in LE doesn't mean they're good. I see fat **** cops every day that wouldn't be able to catch his own dick if it tried to run away. That means nothing.*

I didn't realize LE see dead bodies every single day. Wait for war? Have you even been deployed? There's more death in a deployment than an entire LE career. Pulling over someone for window tint is nothing compared to getting shot at.

I'm not even going to get started on the women attending Ranger school. It's ****ing bull**** and an embarrassment.

* NOTE: I love cops, my Dad retired from SJPD but you guys really don't have any standards.
]

What does a CIB have to do with any of this? You think your bad stuff for having one or something to keep throwing it out in every post? Its irrelevant what I have and dont have. Do you have purple hearts and a silver star?

And when I said wait for war Im not talking about this decade long war, Im talking in general, over a span of many years. Wars dont happen every day...

Its your first time hearing about what? That this soldier dont give a shiite if women want to do Infantry? Its thier choice, theyre not being forced into it. And itll probably phase out fast.

Yes, I used a poor example about LEO fatalities vs War Fatalities. Yes LEO do see dead bodies on a daily basis(all over the nation). There are over 20,000 people killed in a year by firearms alone in the U.S. Who do you think deals with that? LEO. And yes they do get shot at on a daily basis.

Last edited by 1SOCALGUNNER; 07-04-2012 at 7:05 PM..
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  #87  
Old 07-04-2012, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rero360 View Post
But they simply cannot. From my own personal experiences. When I was a MP we were deployed to Iraq, during the mobilization at Ft Dix the female soldiers were constantly falling out, failing to complete the more physically demanding training. One example, we had a road march, body armor (no plates even) and weapon, it wasn't even that far of a march, 5 miles maybe. Only one female was able to complete it, all the rest fell out and rode the truck back.

We had one female who had surgery on her ankle in training, and because she was such a lard butt, she never did the needed physical therapy to properly heal and her leg being weak coupled with the weight caused her ankle to break in country, thus she was sent home.

We had another female get pregnant while home on leave, and at least 3 that I know for positive that were basically running whore houses out of their rooms.

We lost half the females in the company even before we left Ft Dix due to medical issues, then once in country we lost the two mentioned above as well as at least one other that I remember due to family issues back home. Male soldiers sent home at Dix were to med issues (one bad heart and one bee allergy) and in country it was 2 due to injuries sustained from enemy contact, 1 due to seizures, and then we had three put on light duty, one from 6 concussions and 6 pr 7 pieces of shrapnel, another due to going nuts and the last due to a self inflicted injury.

When you get right down to it, we, as MPs, had less gear and did less than the infantry guys we worked with at times. So if the female soldiers were such failures at what they were given, what makes you think they would be able to handle the addition of more gear, more ammo, more distance to travel on foot, and all the extra stuff the infantry guys were doing?

I did 6 years in a light infantry scout platoon and now have been a forward observer for the last 2.5 years. I assure that 99.999999999% of women are incapable of doing the job, especially when you look at sustainment, some might be able to do it for brief periods of time, but not day in and day out for extended periods of time.
Which is why I said IF they can do it. I agree, the large majority of women couldn't cut it. I don't think most of them can do it. I'm just saying, IF they can, I'm okay with it.
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  #88  
Old 07-05-2012, 12:17 AM
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If you are a medic and see a male soldier lying on his back after being wounded in combat and see a woman lying on her back with a combat injury, who would you treat first? Most men would aid the woman first and not think twice about it despite the severity of the injuries; that is the problem (imo) with women in combat; I think this will cause major Issues and could be avoided by leaving things the way they are; Serving in the military isn't about career points when you're a few minutes from being KIA on the battlefield..; I hope the female soldiers that will be talking to press about being the first wave of combat ready female soldiers still want their equal rights when the lead starts flying...I dont see this as a step in the right direction whatsoever but it seems like a done deal. There should be an exception for the reduced physical standards the women are allowed if they choose combat arms, otherwise they're going to be a huge liability all in the sake of being politically correct...I fear the enemy will be looking to immediately exploit this change and it will cost many men and women their lives as the ranks struggle to adapt to this new protocol..
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  #89  
Old 07-05-2012, 12:20 AM
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Not to mention the the huge game of "whos the father?" the platoons will be playing when they return from theatre..(ok, that was a bit sexist but im keeping it real.)
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  #90  
Old 07-05-2012, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
Women in combat arms is a BAD idea, Period.

^ Totally agree.

And anyone who's served in more than a stateside capacity in a mixed gender unit should know that. While there are always exceptions to every rule, the majority of woman can not and should not serve in combat related jobs.

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  #91  
Old 07-05-2012, 4:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteQwill View Post
If you can't comprehend my last post, then there is no further explanation needed.

You did do a great job of illustrating my point though. Well deserved.

What does it matter what my MOS is/was? Does it somehow validate something?
It's not an issue of comprehending, it's an issue if you disagreeing but failing to do more than say I am wrong. How can you preach something you know nothing about?

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Originally Posted by chris View Post
Steve i will have to agree with NitQuill on some of your posts. they are quite condescending to say the least. i have no idea what rank you are and if your a NCO i would expect to you act the role in which you represent.

i have said some crazy stuff here and i won't deny it. but i do try not to discredit the NCO corps as a whole. what really gets me sometimes is that you compare everyone that is not infantry as lesser servicemen and women. respect is earned not given and i can hopefully assume you know that. calling everyone POG's in almost every post gets pretty stupid and repetitive at best. MOS has nothing to do with it and it should'nt be but throwing it around gets old.

i'm done on this part of the topic.
When did I ever say there was any less respect? How have I not been "acting the role"? The most I have done is refer to non-infantry as POGs. If you get offended by that there are other issues. If I typed out what POG stood for would that be less offensive? MOS's have everything to do with this issue because it is about women being put into combat MOS's. If you haven't been in a line unit you don't have the experience to truly realize what women being added to the ranks does.

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Originally Posted by 6114DAVE View Post
but it sucks when you're treated like a piece o **** cause you happened to good on your asvab and chose a non grunt job. We respect an admire the hell out of grunts..it's rarely given in return .
I wasn't going to reply to this at first but against my better judgement am going to. According to you, all infantrymen aren't smart. That's what you are saying. You couldn't be more wrong. There is a ton of classroom training for everything and it's a lot more than just firing a weapon and humping 90 pounds of gear. I don't expect you to know that, but don't make yourself look like a fool. Also, for the record, at infantry COPs the only non-infantry support (didn't want to offend anyone) is from helicopters dropping supplies. Yes, there are more people to it than just the pilots but COPs don't have the luxuries of FOBs. Certain jobs are tougher than others, simple as that. If it was easy everyone would do it.

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Originally Posted by 1SOCALGUNNER View Post
]

What does a CIB have to do with any of this? You think your bad stuff for having one or something to keep throwing it out in every post? Its irrelevant what I have and dont have. Do you have purple hearts and a silver star?

And when I said wait for war Im not talking about this decade long war, Im talking in general, over a span of many years. Wars dont happen every day...

Its your first time hearing about what? That this soldier dont give a shiite if women want to do Infantry? Its thier choice, theyre not being forced into it. And itll probably phase out fast.

Yes, I used a poor example about LEO fatalities vs War Fatalities. Yes LEO do see dead bodies on a daily basis(all over the nation). There are over 20,000 people killed in a year by firearms alone in the U.S. Who do you think deals with that? LEO. And yes they do get shot at on a daily basis.
I simply asked you if you were infantry and had a CIB and I am trying to be hard? I asked you because if you don't have the experiences you can't form a logical opinion on something you know nothing about.

Your "logic" with the LEO statements is again not realistic but whatever floats your boat.
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  #92  
Old 07-06-2012, 12:21 AM
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If you read it , I said "chose to" and was referring to non-grunts , you assumed i was stereotyping. no **** infantrymen aren't dumb. I know that , it takes a special kind of man/intellect to lead men into violence. 99% the greatest military minds were infantry. On the other hand, I met some fellow mechs who were "bricks" when it came to meching. Or they were book smart but not very practical. I met guys who were grunts that we're geniuses. There's a bit of both in each. Infantry needs the support and support needs the infantry So they have a purpose. To wrap it up
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  #93  
Old 07-06-2012, 2:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post
It's not an issue of comprehending, it's an issue if you disagreeing but failing to do more than say I am wrong. How can you preach something you know nothing about?
And you came to that conclusion, how?

I've worn stripes and rockers, now I wear brass. I have a little litter with wreath around it. I have wings, and not the little one you get for falling a few times in a T-10 or T-11. I served alongside folks who carry no name and wear no rank. In fact, the last unit I was in was joint forces (cjsotf). I don't wear my my SSI or badges on my uniform because I like to be judged by my professionalism and not what is on my chest.

And still, to me, MOS has nothing to do with professionalism. Your responses in this thread reflects that.
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  #94  
Old 07-06-2012, 2:33 AM
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This is a little interesting article on the topic.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news...course-070212/
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  #95  
Old 07-06-2012, 9:40 AM
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Oh yeah? well my lowest line score on the ASVAB was a 113, so there

Seriously guys, enough dick measuring.

"I got an CIB"

"I see your CIB and raise you a HALO"

get over it, none of that is germane to the topic at hand.

Its not just 11B that we are talking about either, maybe initially, but you know they will push for all the others, the rest of the 11 series, 13 series (yes I know there are women at brigade or higher doing stuff like weather patterns or something) 18 and 19 series, and probably others that are slipping my mind at the moment.

Fact is, so few women would be physically capable it doing the job (and just barely meeting standards, not excelling) that is it really practically to provide all separate housing and latrine facilities for the very few of them? Additionally, how many of those few women are even going to want to do the job, let alone be considered sub par at it. Are any of you wanting to do a job that you can barely do while everyone around you does it so much easier and better?
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Outonthegrind View Post
Not to mention the the huge game of "whos the father?" the platoons will be playing when they return from theatre..(ok, that was a bit sexist but im keeping it real.)
I would say that's more cynical than sexist. The only female I served with definitely took the "support the troops" thing very seriously.... When I was deployed with UNPROFOR in 93, our translator "made history" (supposedly) by being the first woman "officially" assigned to our unit as an actual member, instead of being assigned to the non-combat support batallion we took with us. I hear she had a hard time explaining to her husband back home how she came back from a 6 month hitch 4 months pregnant.

WRT to them actually serving in combat roles - my maleness says they should not. But I believe that as long as the same physical standards are applied and they pass, then they should be able to. No knee push ups, equal scoring on the 2 mile run times, same load carrying requirements, etc.
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Old 07-07-2012, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post

When did I ever say there was any less respect? How have I not been "acting the role"? The most I have done is refer to non-infantry as POGs. If you get offended by that there are other issues. If I typed out what POG stood for would that be less offensive? MOS's have everything to do with this issue because it is about women being put into combat MOS's. If you haven't been in a line unit you don't have the experience to truly realize what women being added to the ranks does.


this is not exclusive to line units at all. women in any unit are a pain in the A** since they are usually housed or "billeted" elsewhere from the unit and someone always has to get them up or tell them what is going on since they are not billeted with males. come on dude get real this not only line units that are affected.

as the use of POG all the time is quite annoying and yes i expect to act as a NCO if you are one. and yes i have been with line units before. i do not agree with women being attached or assigned to any line unit be it SF, SEALS. field arty, infantry and so on. they have no place in that area at all.

you and i know that is a political game to get more votes for the president. he will do anything to get re-elected.


and i do not think that lessening standards for females should happen either. IMO this will happen only for a political agenda and not for the best interest of the force over all. again you and i know this.


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Originally Posted by NiteQwill View Post
I served alongside folks who carry no name and wear no rank.
so you worked with the Intel guys too. it was fun not to wear any rank or nametapes. it was fun driving the FOBBITS nuts. heck one capt. stopped me and my team leader and asked us why we had no nametapes on. we told here we had TCN's and sources around we told here we were THT and she was familiar with it.

we chuckled at her and wondered why she stopped us and asked who we were and told her. some things never cease to amaze me. even though this was about 6 years ago now.


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Originally Posted by NiteQwill View Post
I don't wear my my SSI or badges on my uniform
i wear mine because i have never been treated with such respect and dignity in my entire career it is because of them i wear it. i can wear others but the SF patch is one i choose to wear. besides some of the BIG ARMY types can't stand them anyways.
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Last edited by chris; 07-07-2012 at 5:23 PM..
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  #98  
Old 07-08-2012, 11:15 AM
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Thanks for the post, Nite.

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this is not exclusive to line units at all. women in any unit are a pain in the A** since they are usually housed or "billeted" elsewhere from the unit and someone always has to get them up or tell them what is going on since they are not billeted with males. come on dude get real this not only line units that are affected.

as the use of POG all the time is quite annoying and yes i expect to act as a NCO if you are one. and yes i have been with line units before. i do not agree with women being attached or assigned to any line unit be it SF, SEALS. field arty, infantry and so on. they have no place in that area at all.
This thread is about women in infantry. I am not talking about other fields. It may affect other MOS's but I have no experience in them and have no room to talk which is why I am keeping it strictly to the infantry in my posts. I think FOs and medics attached to an infantry platoon as just as infantry as us and wouldn't want a woman filling those slots either.

Yes I was an NCO but my use of the term POG isn't meant to offend. My 1SGs and COs called all non-infantry units POGs as did the senior NCOs and even the battalion CSM and commander. It was the norm for us and I don't mean any disrespect by it. Hopefully you can understand why I use it when referring to non-infantry units. Again, it's nothing more than a general term to me but I won't use it anymore.

Standards have different levels. To become an infantryman (or a soldier in general) you have to complete basic. Really the only requirement is to pass a PT test by the end of basic. However, to actively serve in a line platoon there are much higher standards than that (I'm sure certain MOS's have similar standards but again I am only speaking about what I know). You may technically have an 11 series MOS but if you're a POS or can't hack it they will kick you to an S shop. My battalion's standards for infantry was high and a 270 PT score minimum. See my point? This wasn't just us either but several battalions across division. This is only getting into the garrison standards. There were guys who got sent to S shops on deployment because they couldn't hack it. Just because a man or woman can pass a PT test doesn't make them capable of seeking out and destroying the enemy.

I don't mean to direct many of these points at you as I know we agree on them, I'm just typing as I go.

Yes, it is very political. I guarantee many women will pass Ranger school during that first course, not because they actually made it but because it's about politics. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but I've never met a woman that could pass Ranger school.

Last edited by Scuba Steve33; 07-08-2012 at 11:17 AM..
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