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Calgunners in Service This forum is a place for our active duty and deployed members to share, request and have a bit of home where ever they are.

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  #1  
Old 12-18-2010, 12:42 PM
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Default THEY DID IT REPEALED DADT

That's Don't ask don't tell
The times they are a changing

Military will have to bend over backwards (no pun intended)
Recognize male and female spouses, chaplains will have to perform ceremonies (maybe)
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  #2  
Old 12-18-2010, 1:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd2968 View Post
That's Don't ask don't tell
The times they are a changing

Military will have to bend over backwards (no pun intended)
Recognize male and female spouses, chaplains will have to perform ceremonies (maybe)
There isn't any federal law that entitles or recognizes same sex marriages, so there shouldn't be too much of an issue...

The way I see it, only difference is that homosexual service members can bring their partners to the FRG meetings...

I think the EO/POSH policies that are in place cover down pretty well on the repeal of DADT. I also think a lot of people are making this out to be a lot bigger deal than it actually is.
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Old 12-18-2010, 1:18 PM
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That's a good thing. Now if they can repeal some of these gun laws.

Freedom FTW.






Oh... IBTL.
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Old 12-18-2010, 1:20 PM
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i thought if they repealed don't ask don't tell it would go back to no gays in the army

dont ask dont tell allowed gays in

now if they removed the dont ask dont tell requirement that is something different
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Old 12-18-2010, 1:37 PM
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i thought if they repealed don't ask don't tell it would go back to no gays in the army

dont ask dont tell allowed gays in

now if they removed the dont ask dont tell requirement that is something different
The idea is to allow homosexuals the ability to openly serve. There are a LOT of homosexuals in the military already, and if they're in your unit, you usually already have a pretty good idea who they are.

The biggest thing I've heard as far as complaint from said suspected (but not known ) homosexuals is that they can't have the personal/social life they need to balance out their professional life.

I've had to share a barracks room with someone who fit the bill described above, and whereas I had a lot of issues with him, sexual harassment was never one of them. If you catch someone of the same sex staring you up and down in the showers, you can file a complaint with the EO/POSH rep just like you've always been able to do.

A congressional committee investigating this repeal came out to our post about 2-3 months ago and asked all the soldiers on post how we felt about it, and answered some questions for us.

At that time, thy said it would be unlikely that same sex couples could be recognized, and that you won't be seeing any kind of military family benefits for them that currently exist for heterosexual couples. So, the "spouses" in a homosexual relationship shouldn't be getting an ID card, and the service member will still be treated and paid like a single service member.
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Old 12-18-2010, 2:11 PM
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There is going to be a ***** storm when line units get hit with openly serving homosexuals. the survey did point out that most soldiers didn't care, but the majority who did were in line units.

Interesting that the senate repealed it, but there are still some hurdles for it to become policy. Top brass needs to certify that the repealment wouldn't cause issues.


My disclaimer: I personally don't care... being from SF originally it's pretty much normal for me to be around GLBT
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Old 12-18-2010, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ro442173 View Post
That's a good thing. Now if they can repeal some of these gun laws.

Freedom FTW.






Oh... IBTL.
1. My understanding is that the DoD is not compelled to abolish DADT. Rather, doing so is left up to the discretion of the DoD.

2. "Freedom"? In the .mil? Sorry, this isn't the Oakland Medicinal Marijuana Collective we're talking about.

3. Article 125 of the UCMJ is still in effect.
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  #8  
Old 12-18-2010, 3:18 PM
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Same sex marriage wont be recognized, and partners will not be eligible for benefits. You can already give your SGLI to whomever you want, so that wont be an issue, but expect the marriage issue to be next up.

This was in part an end run ploy to attack gay marriage at the federal level using the Military, knowing that we are prohibited by law to fight for ourselves on a political level. Not a single person who is favor of this gives 2 sh*ts about servicemembers, they have shown they are willing to sacrifice as many of us as they need to to enact their agenda.

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Admiral Mike Mullen stated that anyone who doesnt like it, can GTFO of the Military, lets see how his words stand up when Servicemembers begin requesting discharge.

At this moment, im pretty pissed off, I cant wait to see how they are gonna implement this new change to decide whether or not Ive wasted the last 8 years of my life.
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Old 12-18-2010, 3:31 PM
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So DB private snuffy has issues and can't get the job done. Has to go see the 1SG, and while getting his azz chewed blurts out "I'm gay, you're doing this because I'm gay". The NCO chain better have the paperwork in order, and it's gonna be a huge distraction either way. I can see many a DB-but-smart-enough troop using this as a way out of trouble. What's he care? If he say's he needs to be reassigned because of, then is off to a new post he'll get a fresh start.

So, you're out in the field or on the FOB, do we have to have Male showers/latrines, female showers/latrines, gay male showers/latrines and gay female showers/latrines???

How deep will this go? Cavtrooper has a couple of good points. How may things do our "Representatives" need to do against the will of the people they "represent?
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  #10  
Old 12-18-2010, 3:31 PM
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Problem is they can't change human nature. The military never asked for this.
DADT was a compromise solution that protected everyone, though imperfect it kept people safe.

Now?

Chasing the fantasy of liberal utopia will have serious consequences.


The sword of America gets dulller and duller.
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  #11  
Old 12-18-2010, 3:38 PM
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To add-

EO/sexual harrasment complaints will be overwhelming!

Combat Arms persons know that when you get a bunch of guys together for weeks or months on end, the gay jokes or comments get way outta control! How many times have been asked about the "bubble gum" on another guys trousers? Now, every freakin comment from ANYONE is gonna be taken as harrasment and reported.
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Old 12-18-2010, 3:45 PM
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This is just one indicator of many.

This nation is fast headed to be a shadow of it's former self.

I'm not sure it isn't too late or not to stop it.
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Old 12-18-2010, 3:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
To add-

EO/sexual harrasment complaints will be overwhelming!

Combat Arms persons know that when you get a bunch of guys together for weeks or months on end, the gay jokes or comments get way outta control! How many times have been asked about the "bubble gum" on another guys trousers? Now, every freakin comment from ANYONE is gonna be taken as harrasment and reported.
Not to mention all the "I don't deserve this counseling statement, SFC Blank just hates me because I'm gay."

ETA: The Chief beat me to this one. ^

The mandatory sensitivity training when you really need to be doing something worthwhile.

And of course, the promotion/school/assignment quotas that are sure to come.
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Old 12-18-2010, 3:52 PM
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I guess I'll have another fricken bay to watch now. First it was the females need their own space. Now those gays are gonna need a bay.

Not too mention all the extra powerpoints on gay behavior and EO training. Making crap difficult so they can say "I'm gay". Trying to make Soldiers in 9 wks is tough enough. Jeez!
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Old 12-18-2010, 3:54 PM
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Link?

NM...it's everywhere.
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  #16  
Old 12-18-2010, 3:59 PM
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Next thing ya know they'll be letting in broads and colored folks.

I guess it's just a sign of the times and it will just have to change.
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  #17  
Old 12-18-2010, 4:02 PM
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I guess I'll have another fricken bay to watch now. First it was the females need their own space. Now those gays are gonna need a bay.

Not too mention all the extra powerpoints on gay behavior and EO training. Making crap difficult so they can say "I'm gay". Trying to make Soldiers in 9 wks is tough enough. Jeez!




MALE
FEMALE
OTHER
WHAT you gonna do with the bi-sexuals

Or will the shower room look like the scene from Starship Trooper
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  #18  
Old 12-18-2010, 5:38 PM
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The sky is falling, the sky is falling! lol.

Time will pass and this will be a total non-issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
2. "Freedom"? In the .mil? Sorry, this isn't the Oakland Medicinal Marijuana Collective we're talking about.
Yeah, freedom to serve openly without fear of getting kicked out. Without having to hide one's true colors (no pun intended).
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  #19  
Old 12-18-2010, 5:58 PM
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Good luck filling combat arms slots.
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Old 12-18-2010, 6:58 PM
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Good, a step forward for the military.
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  #21  
Old 12-18-2010, 7:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ro442173 View Post
That's a good thing. Now if they can repeal some of these gun laws.

Freedom FTW.






Oh... IBTL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankm View Post
Good luck filling combat arms slots.
Why wouldn't gay people that were opposed to joining before because they were against DADT not be willing to fill combat arms jobs?

On the other side of the coin,
Could they limit openly gay men to non-combat arms jobs since they legally limit women to non-combat arms jobs?
(gender is actually a protected class, whereas orientation is not and they still legally limit women.)

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  #22  
Old 12-18-2010, 8:07 PM
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Why wouldn't gay people that were opposed to joining before because they were against DADT not be willing to fill combat arms jobs?
Well, they could. But I suspect a lot of fundamental Christian types will now view the military as a non-career. Their Puritan ethic will prevent many from living with open homosexuals. I think that recruitment levels could be affected as Christians far outnumber gays.
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Old 12-18-2010, 8:18 PM
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Well, they could. But I suspect a lot of fundamental Christian types will now view the military as a non-career. Their Puritan ethic will prevent many from living with open homosexuals. I think that recruitment levels could be affected as Christians far outnumber gays.
From what every recruiter and service member has told me the military has met or exceeded all it's recruiting goals lately and when they don't they just grant more waivers.
I've personally talked to people who were DQ'd for tattoos or juvenile history (because I was curious about these things for myself) that would join in a heartbeat if they could get waivers.

I've also known gay dudes who could literally kick the crap out of me and probably a few other dudes my size at the same time. So I wouldn't buy that it's because gays can't fight.
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Old 12-18-2010, 8:29 PM
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From what every recruiter and service member has told me the military has met or exceeded all it's recruiting goals lately and when they don't they just grant more waivers.
I've personally talked to people who were DQ'd for tattoos or juvenile history (because I was curious about these things for myself) that would join in a heartbeat if they could get waivers.

I've also known gay dudes who could literally kick the crap out of me and probably a few other dudes my size at the same time. So I wouldn't buy that it's because gays can't fight.
Oh sure some can fight. In any human population there are fighters. I just wonder if this will cause trouble. Lots of really mean straights in combat arms. This isn't like the race thing. This is a sexual thing. Anything sexual is at the core of humanity.
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Old 12-18-2010, 8:35 PM
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Case in point.
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Old 12-18-2010, 8:39 PM
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Oh sure some can fight. In any human population there are fighters. I just wonder if this will cause trouble. Lots of really mean straights in combat arms. This isn't like the race thing. This is a sexual thing. Anything sexual is at the core of humanity.
I guess only a little bit of time will tell how it really plays out.

A report I found from 1995 states that 68% of the military are from various Christian faiths. Which is a pretty large amount.

I kind of think a lot of gay guys will stay in the closet anyway, so it won't be as big of an issue as a lot of people think.

I suspect more lesbians will come out because there will be less resistance.
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Old 12-18-2010, 8:47 PM
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Well, they could. But I suspect a lot of fundamental Christian types will now view the military as a non-career. Their Puritan ethic will prevent many from living with open homosexuals. I think that recruitment levels could be affected as Christians far outnumber gays.
I don't think that will have a huge impact as the vast majority of servicemembers that stay in long enough to re-enlist are already married or NCO so they get house allowance. There might be some ripple amongst the first term enlistees but I don't think retention is an issue for a couple years until the economy gets fixed.
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Old 12-18-2010, 8:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
To add-

EO/sexual harrasment complaints will be overwhelming!

Combat Arms persons know that when you get a bunch of guys together for weeks or months on end, the gay jokes or comments get way outta control! How many times have been asked about the "bubble gum" on another guys trousers? Now, every freakin comment from ANYONE is gonna be taken as harrasment and reported.
I could only imagine how bad it would be if there was a gay guy in my platoon. Everyone of us would have an Article 15 within a week.
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Old 12-18-2010, 9:19 PM
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I could only imagine how bad it would be if there was a gay guy in my platoon. Everyone of us would have an Article 15 within a week.
We had two gay guys. One was schooled by four others while his "boyfriend" stood by and did nothing. What could he do? Kick their butts? Not likely, plus he knew he'd be next if he snitched. The dude got beat up cause we "knew" he was gay. He didn't do anything other than look a little light in the loafers. I feel sorry for anyone who gets "out and proud" in the military.
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Old 12-18-2010, 9:36 PM
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We had two gay guys. One was schooled by four others while his "boyfriend" stood by and did nothing. What could he do? Kick their butts? Not likely, plus he knew he'd be next if he snitched. The dude got beat up cause we "knew" he was gay. He didn't do anything other than look a little light in the loafers. I feel sorry for anyone who gets "out and proud" in the military.
Wait, I thought you said that you just opposed homosexuals in the military on a personal moral standpoint.
But you think it is okay to physically assault them for it?
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Old 12-18-2010, 9:56 PM
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Good to see some of the other vets here trying to educate people about this being a horrible idea. There are two types of people in the military, support and combat arms. Support are more civies anyway and from what I could gather gays have been out there for a long time. Combat arms is another story. People have died over this issue and if they decide to come out the body count will rise.
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ro442173 View Post
The sky is falling, the sky is falling! lol.

Time will pass and this will be a total non-issue.



Yeah, freedom to serve openly without fear of getting kicked out. Without having to hide one's true colors (no pun intended).
Military service isn't a right so don't talk to me about the "freedom to serve," the courts agree with me on this so you will lose. Also some things are incompatible with a military environment, espousing one's alternative lifestyle choice is one of them. DADT = STFU, I hope the DoD continues down the current course whereby gays can serve provided they keep quiet.
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:33 PM
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I smell PowerPoints already in the making....
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by C.W.M.V. View Post
Good to see some of the other vets here trying to educate people about this being a horrible idea. There are two types of people in the military, support and combat arms. Support are more civies anyway and from what I could gather gays have been out there for a long time. Combat arms is another story. People have died over this issue and if they decide to come out the body count will rise.
There you go generalizing.

Combat arms here. Infantry to be exact. Never fought with gays... that I know of. Never had friends that were gay (both military and otherwise). I have no stake in this whole debate. So why do I support this? Simply because it's a whole lot of nonsense. Brave men and women who are ready to fight and die for this country are being forced to hide their sexual orientation because it will affect combat readiness?... lot of FUD right there.

It's almost 2011 for Christ's sake, not 1911. All this nonsense of imposing one's beliefs on others have got to go. Other people's gayness have no affect on me whatsoever. If it did... then that would be my fault and not the gay people. To me, this is a total non-issue. It passed, it will get signed, and so what? Who besides bigots give a flying hoot?
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:51 PM
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It's like blaming Black people because I'm the racist one. If that was the case, I'm the problem, not them.
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
Military service isn't a right so don't talk to me about the "freedom to serve," the courts agree with me on this so you will lose. Also some things are incompatible with a military environment, espousing one's alternative lifestyle choice is one of them. DADT = STFU, I hope the DoD continues down the current course whereby gays can serve provided they keep quiet.
Maybe freedom is not the right word. Maybe equality is what I'm looking for.

If I'm gay, and I can pass all of what's needed for me to pass, then I *should* be able serve.

Are you saying that I should not be able to serve simply on the fact that I'm gay? That I have to be quiet about being gay and the moment it's known that I'm no longer *qualified* to serve?

It'll pass. In time people like you will be the one's in the closet (minority) and this will be a non-issue.
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Old 12-19-2010, 3:26 AM
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While it may work for the Navy, or maybe the Air Force, and maybe even some parts of the Army, it will not work for any of the combat arms. The combat arms, (infantry/artillery/armor) will not work if man love is happening.
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Old 12-19-2010, 7:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ro442173 View Post
Maybe freedom is not the right word. Maybe equality is what I'm looking for.
"Equality" might not be the appropriate word either since the .mil engages in legal discrimination (age, gender, physical, etc) on a daily basis.
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Old 12-19-2010, 7:51 AM
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Well, they could. But I suspect a lot of fundamental Christian types will now view the military as a non-career. Their Puritan ethic will prevent many from living with open homosexuals. I think that recruitment levels could be affected as Christians far outnumber gays.
And they would be crazy to think the military is a happy G rated Christian experience even without gays.
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Old 12-19-2010, 9:05 AM
C.W.M.V. C.W.M.V. is offline
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Originally Posted by ro442173 View Post
There you go generalizing.

Nope, speaking from experience

Combat arms here. Infantry to be exact.

Me too, see sig


Never fought with gays... that I know of. Never had friends that were gay (both military and otherwise). I have no stake in this whole debate. So why do I support this? Simply because it's a whole lot of nonsense. Brave men and women who are ready to fight and die for this country are being forced to hide their sexual orientation because it will affect combat readiness?... lot of FUD right there.

Not FUD, truth. Most Infantrymen don't want openly gay troops, the stats were even cited in the debate in congress. Whats most important is mission accomplishment, and anything that effects morale or unit cohesion is detrimental to that aim. And lets not forget that there will be people killed over this. Hell there already have been.


It's almost 2011 for Christ's sake, not 1911. All this nonsense of imposing one's beliefs on others have got to go.

Sure for the civi world, try telling your CO that he has no right to impose his will over you. Isn't going to work to well. The military and civi worlds are totally different because there is ALWAYS someone who can impose his will over you, hell you even swear to it! "I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice..."

Other people's gayness have no affect on me whatsoever. If it did... then that would be my fault and not the gay people.

Sure, on a personal level. On an organizational level anything that effects a unit negatively has to be addressed/eliminated. No fault for anyone, just fact and priorities.

To me, this is a total non-issue. It passed, it will get signed, and so what? Who besides bigots give a flying hoot?
A very large percentage of actual combat soldiers is who.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ro442173 View Post
Maybe freedom is not the right word. Maybe equality is what I'm looking for.

The armed forces have never been about equality. Whats your point? Hell people are encouraged to be better than everyone and promoted (usually) on a competitive basis, not equality.


If I'm gay, and I can pass all of what's needed for me to pass, then I *should* be able serve.

So females should be allowed on the Infantry if they can hack it right? Wrong. This argument is flawed as descrimination is SOP, and more than that it is the right thing to do.


Are you saying that I should not be able to serve simply on the fact that I'm gay?

No

That I have to be quiet about being gay and the moment it's known that I'm no longer *qualified* to serve?

Yes


It'll pass. In time people like you will be the one's in the closet (minority) and this will be a non-issue.
Whats sad is that there are so many people that see the armed forces as an arena for social experimentation, rather than leaving it to be the bloody, ruthless killers they need to be.

Last edited by C.W.M.V.; 12-19-2010 at 9:11 AM..
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