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  #41  
Old 04-08-2010, 6:09 AM
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I think my man Bagel hit the nail on the head with the "reply factor" here!

Sooo...that being said 2C2S...I really like to see new members here..male\female, as long as they shoot, it's all good. The more, the merrier.

I still suggest a shotgun or pistol for HD.....an AR for HD is not optimal!

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  #42  
Old 04-08-2010, 6:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rumblebee View Post
I still suggest a shotgun or pistol for HD.....an AR for HD is not optimal!
Why?

An AR is shorter than a shotgun, lighter than a shotgun, holds more rounds than a shotgun and kicks less than a shotgun. Standard 223 ammo will go through bulletproof vests that will stop handgun and shotgun rounds.

And the kicker, she already owns an AR. If she spent the cost of a shotgun or handgun on ammo and a class for her AR, she would be far better prepared for home defense than if she blew her money on a shotgun only to stash it under the bed.
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  #43  
Old 04-08-2010, 8:40 AM
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2cute2shoot...if you bought a guitar, would that make you a rock star? No, it would not. Similarly, having an AR doesn't make you capable of defending yourself with it. Therefore fretting about which optic to get at this point is putting the cart before the horse. If you're serious about using your AR for home defense then start taking carbine classes. In the Bay Area there's LMS Defense in San Jose and Sacramento, and Stone Cobra and others in Sac.

A decent 1x red dot sight (Primary Arms is fine to start with) would be a good place to start for this kind of class, but the real value is being able to practice the kinds of techniques that you'd actually use in the real world. You'd have a chance to see and talk about what works/doesn't work based real-life practice rather than Internet discussion.
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  #44  
Old 04-08-2010, 8:57 AM
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Yes...I'm sure neighbors and people sleeping in the next rooms love this idea of .223 being able to go thru bulletproof vests (walls included)...cuz that's what most break in burglers wear anyway...

I could care less if anyone uses an AR for HD...is it optimal....NO. I think there are some people living in fantasy zombie land around here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox View Post
Why?

An AR is shorter than a shotgun, lighter than a shotgun, holds more rounds than a shotgun and kicks less than a shotgun. Standard 223 ammo will go through bulletproof vests that will stop handgun and shotgun rounds.

And the kicker, she already owns an AR. If she spent the cost of a shotgun or handgun on ammo and a class for her AR, she would be far better prepared for home defense than if she blew her money on a shotgun only to stash it under the bed.
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  #45  
Old 04-08-2010, 9:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rumblebee View Post
Yes...I'm sure neighbors and people sleeping in the next rooms love this idea of .223 being able to go thru bulletproof vests (walls included)...cuz that's what most break in burglers wear anyway...
You never know, home invasion with perps wearing vests has happened in the past. If you're shooting a home invader, everything has gone to **** anyway, why shouldn't Murphy's law throw some kevlar in the mix?

.223 is better than most shotgun or handgun ammunition with regards to over penetration: even crappy home walls will cause the bullet to tumble and fragment giving less momentum per fragment at the other side. This is one of the main reasons SWAT teams have moved from pistol caliber carbines like the MP5 to rifle caliber carbines like the AR.
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  #46  
Old 04-08-2010, 4:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haveyourmile View Post
Why are you using it as your home defense weapon? That makes very little sense. Shell out $350 and get a Rem 870 for home defense and then buy a scope you can use at the range. Problem solved, Hannah Montana
I think my AR is the perfect personal protection weapon for me 1st of all, I love to shoot it. Isn't that the most important? We have something like 4,000 rounds of .223 in the garage that my dad reloaded, so that means I get to do a lot of practice in the future, so I'll be really comfortable and good with that gun.

2nd, I hate to shoot shotguns. Maybe from the hip is OK, but I do not like those stocks up against my shoulder...it is sore. Maybe you might disagree with me, but I think it's just so much easier to hit targets with an AR. Plus, don't the pieces from a shotgun bullet go all over the place? Isn't that more dangerous?

I love the face the girl in your avatar is making I could see how you could make someone make that face

Last edited by 2Cute2Shoot; 04-08-2010 at 4:25 PM..
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  #47  
Old 04-08-2010, 5:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey1191 View Post
Hahah Bagelthief you have learned a very valuable lesson of life! not just calguns.
anyway
If you like the look of acogs but also want a red dot why not go with a Calgunner and get Jeffu's Acog "style" scope w/ red dot riding on top.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=282051
picture of both red dot + iron sight model

If you want to get a good Aimpoint style optic go with Primary arms I have there micro for about a 100 bucks w/ riser I couldn't be happier with quality/price. Well unless I spent the 600 dollars on the real T1 w/ Laure mount.
They also have the M2 style as the one you pictured. lots of positive reviews of it here and arf
http://primaryarms.com/category.sc?categoryId=5

They have a different mount than the ugly one pictured btw
I love the JeffU ACOG clone?? Do you know if they are good to own? I really like that look on my AR with the scope small at your eye, then getting bigger at the firing end, but still compact. And don't you boys tell me you don't care about the way your AR's look. I've seen so many threads here with different colors, different stocks...so it's not just a girl thing

I don't want to be a sniper, but want to be able to shoot things that are just a little farther away. Not for any safety reason, but just for fun. I heard someone say you can hit things 500 yards away with iron sights. I don't know how that's possible because I can't even really see things 100 yards away!

And I don't like the red dot with magnifier. I hope to keep it simple and don't like to worry about all that stuff on my gun. I am also bad at zeroing my gun in, and I don't want to have to to that all the time. So is the JeffU scope a good one, or is the Bushnell better? I think both look nice
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  #48  
Old 04-08-2010, 9:23 PM
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I would go with Jeffu cause he's a Calgunner and cause I think the acog looks better.
tons of reviews and happy customers

and in regards to our AR's, we might not go with your color choices, but AR's are the equivalent of a mans barbi doll. We need to get it a nice safe to live in, a pelican to travel in, and accessorize it with matching stocks and rail covers. haha
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Last edited by Trey1191; 04-08-2010 at 9:31 PM..
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  #49  
Old 04-08-2010, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post
So is the JeffU scope a good one, or is the Bushnell better? I think both look nice
FYI The Bushnell you are referring to does not offer any magnification. It functions essentially as a red-dot type sight in a body shaped vaguely like an ACOG.
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  #50  
Old 04-09-2010, 9:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post
If somebody sneaks into my room in the night, trust me, I can fill him up with bullets . I just want something fun..hopefully a scope that will let me shoot things far away, but I'm also hoping that the scope won't ruin my ability to use my AR for protection! I like the 1-4x idea if it works...I'm looking into it
Buy this and this:

Larue mount http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetac...tail.bok?no=30

PA scope http://primaryarms.com/product.sc;js...5&categoryId=2

The mount is nearly double the scope but worth the money. You will not have to worry about re-zeroing your rifle if you take the scope off for HD/CQB work. The PA scope is pretty nice, I picked one up to use until I pull the trigger and get a Trijicon Accupoint. The pair has worked great so far. I have ran lots of rounds through the pair, taken it off the AR and back on with no problems.
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  #51  
Old 04-17-2010, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ElvenSoul View Post
I can't believe nobody has mentioned these

http://primaryarms.com/product.sc?pr...7&categoryId=5

Best deal out there. Small compact size, light weight, and removable 2X Magnifier. Price $200.
Wow now that is a deal. Are they good quality?
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  #52  
Old 04-18-2010, 9:22 AM
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I looooved my aimpoint red dot (james scope). I could shoot out to about 3-400 yards accurately but I recently sold it to a army guy out in Iraq I just got back from shipping it to him, anyway the reason I sold it is because I started getting into long range shooting. I want to shoot at 4-800 yards with my AR. I'm also piecing together a precision rifle "sniper rifle" to be able to hit something out to 1000 yards accurately. Soooo once I finish my "sniper" build I will be saving up for an ACOG. Here is a vid I made check it out around 3:07 to see the aimpoint (red dot) they are truely great sight for close range shooting. As someone said before its all about the purpose of the rifle once you get that down then you can try and make it look good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnfe0NQ7S0A

Last edited by Juice5610; 04-18-2010 at 9:32 AM..
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  #53  
Old 04-18-2010, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice5610 View Post
I looooved my aimpoint red dot (james scope). I could shoot out to about 3-400 yards accurately but I recently sold it to a army guy out in Iraq I just got back from shipping it to him, anyway the reason I sold it is because I started getting into long range shooting. I want to shoot at 4-800 yards with my AR. I'm also piecing together a precision rifle "sniper rifle" to be able to hit something out to 1000 yards accurately. Soooo once I finish my "sniper" build I will be saving up for an ACOG. Here is a vid I made check it out around 3:07 to see the aimpoint (red dot) they are truely great sight for close range shooting. As someone said before its all about the purpose of the rifle once you get that down then you can try and make it look good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnfe0NQ7S0A
Juice, I think I don't understand what you have, or how a red dot works

So you can shoot something 300 yards away with just your red dot? On an AR-15??? Well, I only have my iron sights but I can't hit something that is 100 yards away with just that! And if I hit something, I can't even tell if I hit it or not because it's too far away (and I have 20/20 vision). I looked through some red dots before and I don't think they make anything look bigger? Right? So how is that possible? Or does the Aimpoint make things easier to see somehow?
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  #54  
Old 04-18-2010, 1:04 PM
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Yes red dots are capable of hits on a 400 yard target Ive shot my irons out to 600 yards at angeles before... practice practice practice. Red dots do not have any magnification they just make target acquisition 100x faster. You don't walk up to your targets to see your groupings? Wait how long have you been shooting op? Anymore questions on the aimpoint one of the best sights out on the market for 0-400 yard shooting in my opinion can be found here

http://www.snipercountry.com/inreviews/Aimpoint.asp

EDIT: What are you shooting at? What are you using as targets?

Last edited by Juice5610; 04-18-2010 at 7:50 PM..
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  #55  
Old 04-18-2010, 3:10 PM
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In my experience, investing in training and instruction will go farther than optics and equipment for most people. Rifle qualification in the Marines takes you out to 500 yards on a man size target with only iron sights. In Iraq in 2003, we didn't have many optics. We used 20" barreled M16 A2's for everything from long engagements (3-400+yards) to street fighting to room clearing (All iron sights). No shotguns, few pistols, one acog per squad. To be fair though that wasn't by choice. I'm sure if I could have gotten my hands on some optics I would have gone for it.

It's been proven time and time again that the shooter matters more than the rifle. The MOUT/CQB Instructors course I went through probably did more to improve my shooting/movement than anything else I've ever done/bought. And I went through with the same 20" A2 no optics.

With that being said, the acog is pretty awesome and I wouldn't hesitate recommending it to anyone. For now, practice, train, etc. While doing that, try out as many optics as you can get your hands on to see what works for you. Don't sweat how it looks. I've had to do/use plenty of stupid looking things to get the job done.
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  #56  
Old 04-21-2010, 9:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post
I heard someone say you can hit things 500 yards away with iron sights. I don't know how that's possible because I can't even really see things 100 yards away!
Can you sense a common thread in the responses here? Take some training first! You have 4,000 rounds in the garage. Find a nearby Appleseed shoot. You're female, Appleseed is FREE.

Here, it'll cost you $28 bucks in range fees plus gas. June 19-20th in Castro Valley.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=10785.0

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?sourc...2.102051,0,-32
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  #57  
Old 04-21-2010, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post
I don't think that red dot would look as nice on my gu...I like the way Sanborn's scope looked a lot better. Plus, I don't think a red dot will do anything more for me that my iron sights don't already do...right? I think red dots aren't supposed to help me see my targets any better, just find them faster (I think), which I don't really need.
First off, if your optic choice is for personal defense, how it looks should be your last concern. Get what works. Nothing more. Red dot or reflex sights are much faster than irons. Instead of lining up your front and rear sight, all you do it look down the optic with both eyes open and put the red dot on your target and squeeze. Only one point of aim, not 2 points to worry about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post
Well anyway, since I don't have a lot of money, my cousins told me to look at a Primary Arms, as they are cheaper than the Aimpoints they use, but still pretty good. My question is that in the movie Hurt Locker, I saw both characters running around inside a building, and they were both using their red dots & scope to look for the bad guys (when they found the little boy cut open for a bomb). That leads me to think that if I had the scope, I could still use that gun for personal defense inside my house. Or would I have to leave a scope off while I'm at home, then put it back on every time I take it out shooting, and have to zero it in all over again??
Don't use movies to make choices for real life. It's a movie! Not a training documentary. It's like learning physics from Tom & Jerry. It doesn't quite match up.

With the correct mount, such as something made my LaRue or A.R.M.S., It will maintain a decent zero. Something on a x4 will stay zeroed pretty well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post
Honestly I would just like to be able to leave my scope on all the time, because it would make my gun look so nice , but I don't want it to make my gun useless if I need it in the middle of the night to protect myself! Hopefully someone can tell me what would be best for me!
A red dot/reflex sight is best for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post
I think my AR is the perfect personal protection weapon for me 1st of all, I love to shoot it. Isn't that the most important? We have something like 4,000 rounds of .223 in the garage that my dad reloaded, so that means I get to do a lot of practice in the future, so I'll be really comfortable and good with that gun.

2nd, I hate to shoot shotguns. Maybe from the hip is OK, but I do not like those stocks up against my shoulder...it is sore. Maybe you might disagree with me, but I think it's just so much easier to hit targets with an AR. Plus, don't the pieces from a shotgun bullet go all over the place? Isn't that more dangerous?

I love the face the girl in your avatar is making I could see how you could make someone make that face
If it ain't broke...

If shotguns aren't your fancy, look into a good 9mm for personal protection. Depending on your home, a .223/5.56 may be a bad choice as far as collateral damage is concerned. If you live in an Apartment, DONT!!! If you live in an actual home and there's space between your houses... then its more likely. But you need to remember, a .223 will punch through walls. And you're responsible for every round where it may stop.
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  #58  
Old 04-22-2010, 8:00 AM
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Aside from ammunition and range time, training from reputable instructors will go a LONG way.

OP - if you absolutely insist on an optic for a personal defense/utility rifle look into the Aimpoint line, specifically models such as the ML3/M3, C3, M4x and T1/H1 lines. These optics require very little maintenance and most users keep them turned on 24/7 with battery change intervals scheduled in one year increments. I keep my ML2 on 24/7 and change the battery out every year. For my T1, it is still on the same battery and has been left on since 11/22/2009.
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  #59  
Old 04-22-2010, 2:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plisk View Post
First off, if your optic choice is for personal defense, how it looks should be your last concern. Get what works. Nothing more. Red dot or reflex sights are much faster than irons. Instead of lining up your front and rear sight, all you do it look down the optic with both eyes open and put the red dot on your target and squeeze. Only one point of aim, not 2 points to worry about.



Don't use movies to make choices for real life. It's a movie! Not a training documentary. It's like learning physics from Tom & Jerry. It doesn't quite match up.

With the correct mount, such as something made my LaRue or A.R.M.S., It will maintain a decent zero. Something on a x4 will stay zeroed pretty well.




A red dot/reflex sight is best for you.



If it ain't broke...

If shotguns aren't your fancy, look into a good 9mm for personal protection. Depending on your home, a .223/5.56 may be a bad choice as far as collateral damage is concerned. If you live in an Apartment, DONT!!! If you live in an actual home and there's space between your houses... then its more likely. But you need to remember, a .223 will punch through walls. And you're responsible for every round where it may stop.
You have such girl discrimination . How many threads have I seen here about how guns look? Guys care more about that than girls care about how their clothes look .

As far as personal protection, I have a Springfield 1911 if I needed a handgun. But if i had time to make my choice, I would definitely go for the AR which I keep in its case under my bed . I'm not sure about collateral damage (like in Iraq ), but I'm not sooo bad a shot as you might be thinking! I wouldn't be firing wildly and shooting up my neighbors' houses. Also, the AR is the gun I love shooting the most, and so it comes as second nature to me...or I think it would, if I needed it in an emergency. If those bullets can go thru walls, I know they can go thru any sized bad guy, and I can put so many more rounds thru him too, and really, that is what I want to know I can do to feel safe .

But yes, as far as a scope, I am very comfortable using my iron sights, as that is all that I have ever practiced on. I looove the look of some scopes that look like the ACOG, but I don't think I want something for shooting 600 yards away. What would be perfect is if it just magnified a little bit, so I could see those 100 to 200 yard away targets, but also just leave it on my gun when it's under my bed and know I can still use it for protection
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Old 04-22-2010, 3:37 PM
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Don't use movies to make choices for real life. It's a movie! Not a training documentary. It's like learning physics from Tom & Jerry. It doesn't quite match up.

That right there would be a great sig line.
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  #61  
Old 04-22-2010, 5:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post
You have such girl discrimination . How many threads have I seen here about how guns look? Guys care more about that than girls care about how their clothes look .

As far as personal protection, I have a Springfield 1911 if I needed a handgun. But if i had time to make my choice, I would definitely go for the AR which I keep in its case under my bed . I'm not sure about collateral damage (like in Iraq ), but I'm not sooo bad a shot as you might be thinking! I wouldn't be firing wildly and shooting up my neighbors' houses. Also, the AR is the gun I love shooting the most, and so it comes as second nature to me...or I think it would, if I needed it in an emergency. If those bullets can go thru walls, I know they can go thru any sized bad guy, and I can put so many more rounds thru him too, and really, that is what I want to know I can do to feel safe .

But yes, as far as a scope, I am very comfortable using my iron sights, as that is all that I have ever practiced on. I looove the look of some scopes that look like the ACOG, but I don't think I want something for shooting 600 yards away. What would be perfect is if it just magnified a little bit, so I could see those 100 to 200 yard away targets, but also just leave it on my gun when it's under my bed and know I can still use it for protection
Difference being; we don't let the looks hinder the purpose. And excuse me if I wasn't sucking up like the rest (just kidding guys), just thought you'd appreciate some hard honestly. Your 1911 is a better choice, you don't want the rounds to go through him. You can have round hit a person and exit and it doesn't stop him. There are gaps in the human body. Have you ever seen the video of the duck with the arrow through his head? Same concept, it hit a non-vital area.

Collateral damage means going past your target and doing un-intended damage. That was one of the reasons the Army wanted to switch out the M14 in Vietnam and bringing the M16 into the lime-light. It doesn't have to do with how a good a shot you are, its still very easy to miss the guy with a few rounds during stress. You're under massive stress in that situation, you know the moment when you're in a car accident and things seem to slow down or time just freezes but its still happening? Imagine trying to draw and aim during that moment.
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  #62  
Old 04-22-2010, 10:43 PM
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Difference being; we don't let the looks hinder the purpose. And excuse me if I wasn't sucking up like the rest (just kidding guys), just thought you'd appreciate some hard honestly. Your 1911 is a better choice, you don't want the rounds to go through him. You can have round hit a person and exit and it doesn't stop him. There are gaps in the human body. Have you ever seen the video of the duck with the arrow through his head? Same concept, it hit a non-vital area.

Collateral damage means going past your target and doing un-intended damage. That was one of the reasons the Army wanted to switch out the M14 in Vietnam and bringing the M16 into the lime-light. It doesn't have to do with how a good a shot you are, its still very easy to miss the guy with a few rounds during stress. You're under massive stress in that situation, you know the moment when you're in a car accident and things seem to slow down or time just freezes but its still happening? Imagine trying to draw and aim during that moment.
That's true not to let looks hinder purpose! I'll make sure not to go too far on just looks . Hopefully I can get both. I love the 1911 & have never liked another handgun better, but I just feel way more confident with my AR. At the range, I put 5 apples on my target stand and shot all 5 off with 5 shots in 5 seconds at 25 yards away . I could not do that with my 1911. Plus, my handgun can hold less rounds than my AR, which also makes me trust it less.

My cousin was telling me about the AR's bullets and how they tumble once they hit someone to cause a lot of injury, and that's why our soldiers use that weapon? Isn't that how they work, and not go straight through the badguys and let them keep coming?

Anyway, after what you said, I might switch and not use my dad's reload ammo in my AR when it's at home. Do they sell hollow point ammo for an AR?
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:06 PM
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That's true not to let looks hinder purpose! I'll make sure not to go too far on just looks . Hopefully I can get both. I love the 1911 & have never liked another handgun better, but I just feel way more confident with my AR. At the range, I put 5 apples on my target stand and shot all 5 off with 5 shots in 5 seconds at 25 yards away . I could not do that with my 1911. Plus, my handgun can hold less rounds than my AR, which also makes me trust it less.

My cousin was telling me about the AR's bullets and how they tumble once they hit someone to cause a lot of injury, and that's why our soldiers use that weapon? Isn't that how they work, and not go straight through the badguys and let them keep coming?

Anyway, after what you said, I might switch and not use my dad's reload ammo in my AR when it's at home. Do they sell hollow point ammo for an AR?
If your AR is what works, then use it. Just make sure you're relying on the right tool. Yea, the .223 is suppose to tumble when it hits the target, but that happens once it hits meat essentially. It still pops through drywall. The .223 isn't the best round designed to stop a person, it can defiantly do it but it's not the best. 12 gauge is the best, but you've made it clear shotguns aren't for you.

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Plus, my handgun can hold less rounds than my AR, which also makes me trust it less.
Why trust it less? You're in Kalifornia, they both will hold up to 10.

Oh and:
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...low-point-ammo

It's expensive, but probably the best. Keep in mind you don't keep oodles of defense ammo around. Just enough to keep a few mags loaded for at home.
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:09 PM
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Why trust it less? You're in Kalifornia, they both will hold up to 10.
Oh yeah, right, I forgot. They hold the same

And I think I like the incendiary armor piercing tracer better than the hollow points on that site. I'm just that type of girl

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Old 04-22-2010, 11:14 PM
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If you would like to duel weld both Irons for back up and an inexpensive, but reliable low mag variable sight. I would recommend a Millett 1.1-4x24 DMS. I measured the eye relief and height of this package combo $265 +SH (scope + mount) and should work in unison with irons.

Function and operation is much more important then an overpriced brand name 3 of which I wont repeat, due to fan boy retaliatory remarks.

If you have a failure you shouldn't have to remove the variable to shoot through it unless your eyes aren't 20/20. If you know what a cheek weld is then you should be good. Since your eye will have to be forward for acceptable eye relief to be able to flip up irons. Only thing I don't know about for you is if you have a flat top if you can mount far enough forward to be able to deploy rear BUIS without interference of above scope.

You are not going to find anything that will keep a zero for a lower price. You will however find many overpriced name brand variables. Don't be fooled into thinking you need a mid to long range scope on an AR 556/223. As for clones, I wouldn't waste my time if I was you.




http://swfa.com/Millett-1-4x24-DMS-P...bo-P42148.aspx



I went with the above combo and just ordered after much looking, feeling and research and input from shooters. My rig is for 3 gun though. But I find fixed scopes to be annoying.


BTW clearing buildings you don't need sights. Instinctive fire and reflex fire training is what you need.

Start practicing looking over the top of your irons and shooting what you're looking at. Sight in at cheek weld, look over dry fire. Do this for a few days. Then go shoot. You will be astonished at your results.

When I was in Iraq I could take shots up to 0-150 without looking through my m68 (red dot) on my M4 with unique variations of this method. (I say that because, everyone may use similar method but varying technique.)
I could shoot out tires of moving vehicles inbound from a moving vehicle. (Oh and BTW angle deflection of windshields is down inbound and up when outbound, amazing how high velocity rounds act penetrating glass. 7.62 isn't as pronounced)

When you get the weight of a firearm out of your head and consciousness it allows you to focus on the primary fundamentals; stable base, cheek weld/sight picture, breathing & squeeze. Thus dry fire exercises. Not just for safety, but for muscle memory just like anything else in life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post

Plus, I don't think a red dot will do anything more for me that my iron sights don't already do...right? I think red dots aren't supposed to help me see my targets any better, just find them faster (I think), which I don't really need.

Well anyway, since I don't have a lot of money, my cousins told me to look at a Primary Arms, as they are cheaper than the Aimpoints they use, but still pretty good. My question is that in the movie Hurt Locker, I saw both characters running around inside a building, and they were both using their red dots & scope to look for the bad guys (when they found the little boy cut open for a bomb). That leads me to think that if I had the scope, I could still use that gun for personal defense inside my house. Or would I have to leave a scope off while I'm at home, then put it back on every time I take it out shooting, and have to zero it in all over again??

Honestly I would just like to be able to leave my scope on all the time, because it would make my gun look so nice , but I don't want it to make my gun useless if I need it in the middle of the night to protect myself! Hopefully someone can tell me what would be best for me!
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Old 04-23-2010, 12:09 AM
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On the internetz lately, it's been Aimpoint T-1 + Larue Mount for the win. You might even think it looks cute.





I don't know how it got so off topic. If you feel like you're very proficient with the AR, by all means, don't let other people tell you otherwise. I would pick up my shotgun, because there is a reason why they call it "shotgun dead". But I'm sure an AR could be just as effective. You may also want to consider a RDS (Red dot) because it's gonna be hard to use irons in the dark and on a moving target.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:37 AM
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If you would like to duel weld both Irons for back up and an inexpensive, but reliable low mag variable sight. I would recommend a Millett 1.1-4x24 DMS. I measured the eye relief and height of this package combo $265 +SH (scope + mount) and should work in unison with irons.

Function and operation is much more important then an overpriced brand name 3 of which I wont repeat, due to fan boy retaliatory remarks.

If you have a failure you shouldn't have to remove the variable to shoot through it unless your eyes aren't 20/20.
The Millet DMS has a reticle, as do most other variable scopes. What kind of scope failure are you thinking would necessitate deploying the irons?
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Old 04-23-2010, 2:44 PM
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Gee, I dunno how about the most obvious the battery. I guess being practical doesn't come into the frame of reference?

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The Millet DMS has a reticle, as do most other variable scopes. What kind of scope failure are you thinking would necessitate deploying the irons?
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:01 AM
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Gee, I dunno how about the most obvious the battery. I guess being practical doesn't come into the frame of reference?
You're not getting it. All the battery does is power the illumination, which is not visible in daylight anyway. The reticle is there regardless of the state of the battery.
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Old 04-24-2010, 1:16 AM
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Hmm why would you need illumination on a reticle? Low light conditions maybe, quick target acquisition? But you are right, I am thinking tactical/practical, not shooting from a firing line with some $10hr yahoo as a safety. You probably aren’t familiar with what a frame of reference is for a sight picture with instinctive or point shooting. You actually need iron sights and to know where your bullets are striking for the mental clarity or frame of reference via sight picture to shoot near targets accurately. IMHO if you are going to have BUIS on your weapon you should know where they shoot what if you drop the rifle and break your glass, scratch it or it becomes loosened, thereby destroying your zero, or environmental factors interfere. In my limited experience I have noticed there are many individuals who do not understand the concept of BUIS.
1. Yes they may be secondary
2. But if they aren’t ranged, then they’re just excess weight
3. If they can be used during any of the above mentioned failure then they become quite essential to the shooter’s targeting.
4. Even point shooting, if you don’t know your hard/BUIS/iron sights, then this method is useless.
5. So in essence, I can’t help if I am thinking ahead, I guess there has just been times where my life depended on it, that’s all. I am sure you’ve experienced similar situations.
6. I am more of a tactical shooter and enjoy varied firing schemes/methods. Bench or firing line shooting is very boring and impractical unless it is over 600m with something larger then a 556. Most shootings are within 25 yards, most handgun shoot outs are within 10y. So scoping some dude 75 feet away or less is not very practical or is it?
BTW I’d like to see someone other then the green lantern use a non illuminated reticle at night. Splane that lucy.
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Old 04-24-2010, 9:57 AM
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FYI,
your ar is a better choice for home defense than probably everything else you have in your house. .223 goes through LESS drywall than 12 gauge. Less chance for hitting someone on the other side.
Follow up shots are faster. And at that close of a range, your round will FRAGMENT, not tumble, which is what you want in terms of take down power.

The only reason why so many LEOS stay away from ar15s indoors is because of how god awful loud they are. Anyway I digress.

Get the scope you want. At the end of the day, I realized you will ALWAYS have naysayers and you can't please everyone. Get what YOU want and what makes you happy. On that note, don't go too cheap on optics, you'll regret it later and you'll waste money buying again.

Yea, I know ACOGS and aimpoints are expensive. But quality optics will cost at least the same, if not more than the rifle.
Good luck
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Old 04-26-2010, 7:37 PM
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Hmm why would you need illumination on a reticle? Low light conditions maybe, quick target acquisition? But you are right, I am thinking tactical/practical, not shooting from a firing line with some $10hr yahoo as a safety. You probably arenít familiar with what a frame of reference is for a sight picture with instinctive or point shooting. You actually need iron sights and to know where your bullets are striking for the mental clarity or frame of reference via sight picture to shoot near targets accurately. IMHO if you are going to have BUIS on your weapon you should know where they shoot what if you drop the rifle and break your glass, scratch it or it becomes loosened, thereby destroying your zero, or environmental factors interfere. In my limited experience I have noticed there are many individuals who do not understand the concept of BUIS.
1. Yes they may be secondary
2. But if they arenít ranged, then theyíre just excess weight
3. If they can be used during any of the above mentioned failure then they become quite essential to the shooterís targeting.
4. Even point shooting, if you donít know your hard/BUIS/iron sights, then this method is useless.
5. So in essence, I canít help if I am thinking ahead, I guess there has just been times where my life depended on it, thatís all. I am sure youíve experienced similar situations.
6. I am more of a tactical shooter and enjoy varied firing schemes/methods. Bench or firing line shooting is very boring and impractical unless it is over 600m with something larger then a 556. Most shootings are within 25 yards, most handgun shoot outs are within 10y. So scoping some dude 75 feet away or less is not very practical or is it?
BTW Iíd like to see someone other then the green lantern use a non illuminated reticle at night. Splane that lucy.
Wait - are you Gecko45?
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Old 04-26-2010, 7:45 PM
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Wait - are you Gecko45?
Who is Gecko45 and why would you care?
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Old 04-26-2010, 8:57 PM
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Who is Gecko45 and why would you care?
Bahahaha! now THAT is a great sig line.

Sorry to interrupt all the leghumping...carry on
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Old 04-26-2010, 10:13 PM
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If you would like to duel weld both Irons for back up and an inexpensive, but reliable low mag variable sight. I would recommend a Millett 1.1-4x24 DMS. I measured the eye relief and height of this package combo $265 +SH (scope + mount) and should work in unison with irons.

Function and operation is much more important then an overpriced brand name 3 of which I wont repeat, due to fan boy retaliatory remarks.

If you have a failure you shouldn't have to remove the variable to shoot through it unless your eyes aren't 20/20. If you know what a cheek weld is then you should be good. Since your eye will have to be forward for acceptable eye relief to be able to flip up irons. Only thing I don't know about for you is if you have a flat top if you can mount far enough forward to be able to deploy rear BUIS without interference of above scope.

You are not going to find anything that will keep a zero for a lower price. You will however find many overpriced name brand variables. Don't be fooled into thinking you need a mid to long range scope on an AR 556/223. As for clones, I wouldn't waste my time if I was you.




http://swfa.com/Millett-1-4x24-DMS-P...bo-P42148.aspx



I went with the above combo and just ordered after much looking, feeling and research and input from shooters. My rig is for 3 gun though. But I find fixed scopes to be annoying.


BTW clearing buildings you don't need sights. Instinctive fire and reflex fire training is what you need.

Start practicing looking over the top of your irons and shooting what you're looking at. Sight in at cheek weld, look over dry fire. Do this for a few days. Then go shoot. You will be astonished at your results.

When I was in Iraq I could take shots up to 0-150 without looking through my m68 (red dot) on my M4 with unique variations of this method. (I say that because, everyone may use similar method but varying technique.)
I could shoot out tires of moving vehicles inbound from a moving vehicle. (Oh and BTW angle deflection of windshields is down inbound and up when outbound, amazing how high velocity rounds act penetrating glass. 7.62 isn't as pronounced)

When you get the weight of a firearm out of your head and consciousness it allows you to focus on the primary fundamentals; stable base, cheek weld/sight picture, breathing & squeeze. Thus dry fire exercises. Not just for safety, but for muscle memory just like anything else in life.
Well I think Tintreach knows a lot . I'm going to practice what you said and try to hit targets not even looking thru my iron sights to see what it is like. Is cheek weld having your cheek up against the stock?

How far would you recommend I place my target when I am doing this? What kind of grouping would be considered good? Thanks! If this works, I may just use a magnified scope and not even think about sights for home defense. It does sound weird though
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Old 04-26-2010, 10:50 PM
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Well I think Tintreach knows a lot . I'm going to practice what you said and try to hit targets not even looking thru my iron sights to see what it is like. Is cheek weld having your cheek up against the stock?

How far would you recommend I place my target when I am doing this? What kind of grouping would be considered good? Thanks! If this works, I may just use a magnified scope and not even think about sights for home defense. It does sound weird though
2C2S - take a look at some of the drills this guy has on his youtube page - it may give you some ideas of drills you can run - mostly inside of 25 yards. He is a retired US Army Delta force guy - real deal - not movie stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/user/VikingTactics
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Old 04-27-2010, 10:26 AM
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Well I think Tintreach knows a lot . I'm going to practice what you said and try to hit targets not even looking thru my iron sights to see what it is like. Is cheek weld having your cheek up against the stock?

How far would you recommend I place my target when I am doing this? What kind of grouping would be considered good? Thanks! If this works, I may just use a magnified scope and not even think about sights for home defense. It does sound weird though
If your still interested in an ACOG you can get them pretty cheap on ebay. MAKE SURE THEY ARE REAL though. They run about $500-600, some brand new.

Hope this helps, Dont give up on getting an ACOG...they are freaking awesome.
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Old 04-27-2010, 1:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post
Well I think Tintreach knows a lot . I'm going to practice what you said and try to hit targets not even looking thru my iron sights to see what it is like. Is cheek weld having your cheek up against the stock?

How far would you recommend I place my target when I am doing this? What kind of grouping would be considered good? Thanks! If this works, I may just use a magnified scope and not even think about sights for home defense. It does sound weird though
Wheels is correct triple threat training is good, but unless already proficient IMHO I wouldn't recommend starting with it.

Just use one or two full size silhouettes to begin with. Practice double tapping and bring lots of tape and some of those walmart bleeding targets (green or orange). This will tighten up your shot groups. 2 to the head 2 to the center chest. Practice with different amounts of ammunition in the mags. Start with a full mag, then go with lower amount say 15 then alternate between 4,8,15,30. This will ensure that you're focusing your shots, not counting the rounds left in the mag, like some do. Lol. Fire as many rounds as you like for practice, but 25-75 rnds should be plenty.

Anyways distance start 10m-15m, 25 meters is the goal but you can graduate to that later. Then further if you like. Start with where you are comfortable. Have your shooting partner start calling your shots when you feel you are getting proficient. 2 head 1 chest whatever your partner calls. This will help with rapid firing skills. Do this again for say 20-40rnds

Then if still want to point fire put up those bleeding targets (from Wallyworld or better) either get the ones with the tape on the back or tape them up good on your targets, place them where the head and chest would be on the silhouettes.

Point firing:
Now practice going from standing to low ready/crouched (knees bent) and sighting and firing on the first target. same thing double taps shoot about 50 rounds. 2 head 2 chest, alternate, have partner call placement. Next target reset fired target by posting new targets over.

Now for your shooting. You know where your irons will fire. Again go from low ready to firing position, but use the front sight post only. Keeping the same cheek weld for iron sight, but do not look through your rear sight. Do everything you were doing before, but only use the front sight post. If you want to get the frame of reference clear in your mind in between firing look through your irons, but don't shoot. Just as a frame of reference. Then look over to where you would be aiming with only the front sight post.

This is by far the most useful thing to do out of everything I mentioned. When you have multiple targets shifting takes time and when you can scan and fire without restricting your field of view in either eye I can acquire targets faster personally.

Try it out, develop your own methods or practices. This is just an offering for carbine and can be useful for various reasons, there may be some people who disagree and that's okay.

If you feel all the previous firing is not needed go to the triple threat, but use shapes/colors and let someone else call your targets. Ex. Circle (red), Square (yellow), Triangle (green). Have them call randomly and you can make your targets on butcherblock paper with sharpies. Bring tape and color over. Try that out. & buy a 16$ shooting timer from midway. Check it out. Your times will improve and so will your acquisition time and placement. You can also practice walking parallel to your targets, when begining stop while shooting, later you can do both. Also walking to the target and firing from different positions and cover is good too.

As for the pistol firing look up applegate, this is a good beginners commentary. I pmed you with some of the other systems.

NE way my $.02
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Old 04-28-2010, 4:25 PM
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On the internetz lately, it's been Aimpoint T-1 + Larue Mount for the win. You might even think it looks cute.





I don't know how it got so off topic. If you feel like you're very proficient with the AR, by all means, don't let other people tell you otherwise. I would pick up my shotgun, because there is a reason why they call it "shotgun dead". But I'm sure an AR could be just as effective. You may also want to consider a RDS (Red dot) because it's gonna be hard to use irons in the dark and on a moving target.
You could probably get a Vortex Sparc which looks really similar for less than $200. Not only does it have that cool Aimpoint look for a lot less, but it also comes with a 2x magnifier you can screw on for hitting things a little farther out.



Not my pic btw
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