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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #121  
Old 01-12-2018, 5:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabefree View Post
As I am reading through all of the posts in this thread it has became all to clear that a large percentage of you have already given up. I understand and even agree that for many its just too much trouble to stay and fight, but for me and many others that solves nothing in the big picture.
I would venture to say that moving away may fix your problems in the short run. But not all the folks leaving California are leaving because of there 2a rights. most are leaving because of many other reasons such as Sanctuary Cities & high Taxes, over crowding , failed schools & high poverty rates. Those folks that are moving to your now free states will bring there anti 2a beliefs with them and already are. Not a day hardly goes by when I read of bad gun laws and restrictions in most all of the other so call free states.
So my point is there will come a time when all of us will have to decide over and over again what our line in the sand really is.

As to all of you who have or are going to leave I wish you well but the fight will eventually find you again. Good Luck
I'm highly doubtful as to the fight eventually finding Idaho...conservative Republican legislature, a constitution that protects RKBA by design, and a large LDS presence. That allows a state to grant Constitutional Carry.


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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
Right up until that moment you get t-boned by a drunk driver on the way to the range with one or more of those guns in the trunk. CHP inventories your car after you are taken to the hospital, finds the unregistered "assault weapons" and you've won a free felony criminal indictment.

"Not registering" is great...as long as nothing ever leaves the blackness of the gun safe. It's a little more problematic if you actually shoot them.
Cute scenario. And the rifles were definitely shot.


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Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
I suppose I want less of the hilarious internet warrior "I'm tougher than you" inanity, no matter how amusing it is.
I'd like less of an opinion about rolling over and taking it. I don't find it especially amusing. QED, we left instead of staying to fight a battle that so far appears that it cannot be won.


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Originally Posted by kcbrown View Post
Do you believe you have the right to your life? If so, how exactly do you expect to assert that right?
This...answer the question.
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  #122  
Old 01-12-2018, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Guns and guitars View Post
I think the blatant difference from Americans and some Californians is in this sentence.
You see the 2A as something that is theirs to give you if you want it, not something that is yours they have no right to take away.
So, you are an American because you have the financial ability to pack-up and leave this screwed up state. And me, I'm unable to do so and will register my "assault weapons" because I refuse to further neuter them or become a criminal. So that makes me un-American.

Great stuff. Enjoy Montana.
  #123  
Old 01-12-2018, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Nor*Cal View Post
So, you are an American because you have the financial ability to pack-up and leave this screwed up state. And me, I'm unable to do so and will register my "assault weapons" because I refuse to further neuter them or become a criminal. So that makes me un-American.

Great stuff. Enjoy Montana.
I cannot see how you can be "un-American" if neutering or becoming a criminal are your only choices. Some of us moved out, others are staying. Reasons are not germane in this discussion. I just wish you had more options.
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  #124  
Old 01-12-2018, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by USMCM16A2 View Post
...there is not a soul at the house, lock the ****ing thing up...
If you feel the need to lock up your firearm, feel free to do so but don't try to tell me what to do with mine. That is our problem in California, everybody wants a law passed to control other people. After a law for everything is passed, it won't change the way people act, not one bit.
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  #125  
Old 01-12-2018, 9:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor*Cal View Post
So, you are an American because you have the financial ability to pack-up and leave this screwed up state. And me, I'm unable to do so and will register my "assault weapons" because I refuse to further neuter them or become a criminal. So that makes me un-American.

Great stuff. Enjoy Montana.

Its not me deciding who's American, its the fact the laws in your state are not following the constitution and openly claims it is NOT America and should be its own country.

You might not like to hear this, but to the rest of the country california is not considered American anymore, especially to the gun community and those who are constitutionalists. This is fact.


A state says that it should be its own country. Its politicians claim that the constitution is antiquated and the state should be its own country.
You live and chose to stay in the state.
Sad to say but to anyone outside of ca you are lumped in.

As Ive said three times in this thread so far, there ARE great Americans here in ca, but they are planning their exit.

Want to stay here and slowly have your rights stripped? Your livelihood taken until the point where you are too taxed to even consider leaving? Have your children indoctrinated to liberal talking points? Then eventually possibly be imprisoned for weapons you legally purchased?

Thats fine, I wish you the best in your endeavors. May God bless you.
  #126  
Old 01-12-2018, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
If you feel the need to lock up your firearm, feel free to do so but don't try to tell me what to do with mine. That is our problem in California, everybody wants a law passed to control other people. After a law for everything is passed, it won't change the way people act, not one bit.

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  #127  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Guns and guitars View Post
Want to stay here and slowly have your rights stripped? Your livelihood taken until the point where you are too taxed to even consider leaving? Have your children indoctrinated to liberal talking points? Then eventually possibly be imprisoned for weapons you legally purchased?

Thats fine, I wish you the best in your endeavors. May God bless you.
Rights cannot be stripped from anyone, unless they themselves surrender them. Do you actually think that made up laws do anything? There are NO laws without enforcement. Do you think that CADoJ has the capacity to enforce everything the legislature wants? They cant, even if they wanted to... they haven't the manpower or funding. Does the California correctional system have any place for gun law violators when they are releasing convicts for much more serious crimes?

CALeg can imagine all sorts of new ways to harm us, but if the enforcement arm is impotent, the CAleg is likewise powerless.

Again, go enjoy your easy liberty, Sunshine (patriot).
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  #128  
Old 01-12-2018, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by alex1975 View Post
I lived in Western Europe and originally from USSR. You cannot have guns in those places. So, for me the ability to just enter a store, to pay 500 and in 10 days to have a real handgun is something like dream come true. So, I guess my line in the sand is far far away.
As somebody that lack true american mentality, I'm trying to understand, how guns make you free? As a CCW holder I feel myself much more limited in behavior than before.
how did you feel living under the fear of being arested for no reason and having no recourse about it?
as to living in the United States of America. having a ccw what limits do you live under?
being polite?
not threating people?
backing down from a fool?
driving as per the law? aka not speeding. stoping at stop lights, signs?
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  #129  
Old 01-13-2018, 1:30 AM
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I am out of her in 21 months.
  #130  
Old 01-13-2018, 7:59 AM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
Rights cannot be stripped from anyone, unless they themselves surrender them. Do you actually think that made up laws do anything? There are NO laws without enforcement. Do you think that CADoJ has the capacity to enforce everything the legislature wants? They cant, even if they wanted to... they haven't the manpower or funding. Does the California correctional system have any place for gun law violators when they are releasing convicts for much more serious crimes?

CALeg can imagine all sorts of new ways to harm us, but if the enforcement arm is impotent, the CAleg is likewise powerless.

Again, go enjoy your easy liberty, Sunshine (patriot).
Wait, so your first post we were to feel bad since you didnt have the monetary ability to move out of state not to mention you were sick and tied of bravado talk.

Now your second post you love it here, you wont comply and you give us the bravado talk.

Which is it now?


Nice that you dont comply. I actually respect that greatly. If I was too stay in this socialist utopia I too would take that path. Even more so since I shoot on my own land, have very close relations to law enforcement and find myself in a RED area for sure.
That still doesn't change the fact that I cant SBR, Own class III weapons, or go out and pick a pistol I want without dealing Kamala's list of what I can own.

And I wont even start on taxes, fines, bills, limitations, sad health care providers, poor roads, love of illegals, stipulations on Christian homeschool, business operating costs rising, payroll taxes on my employees, permits to do business cost raising every year, environmental taxes that are spurred by false flag liberal war cries, importation laws which directly effect my income, Shoddy liberal education system, mismanagement of funds from the governor down to my county supervisors, open disrespect from government officials to my lifestyle in general, bureaucracy of epic proportions for everything from getting a drivers license to reissuing a contractors license, Zero representation in government, new props that let criminals go free and turn felonies into misdemeanors, Border stops to make sure Im not bringing in ammo but illegals cross freely and last but not least Ill reiterate my line in the sand of why I knew this place wasn't for me,
The Stockholm syndrome of the people here who believe that having their God given rights as an American stripped from them is either not happening, or in some cases a blessing.

Perhaps Im a bad person for being judgmental but when you are raised in Texas and Arizona its really hard to fathom any God fearing American purposely subjugating themselves to rules that are directly contradictory of the US constitution.

Im not from here. It was a great experiment to live behind enemy lines out side of the country and all for a few years, but its time to go back to America where I might not agree with everything happening but at least Im free.
  #131  
Old 01-13-2018, 9:01 AM
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Like others have said, the line has already been crossed not only on a 2A level, but on a quality of life level. I regularly stress about providing for a family here in CA when my income would allow me to not stress much at all if I were to live in a comparable neighborhood in nearly any other state. Retiring here in CA would be defined as driving Uber or picking up odd jobs for money in my later years being how I don't think I'll accumulate the large savings needed to make it work here otherwise. The line is having to constantly push to find peace of mind due to obstacles that the state has invented.

I'm not the only person in my family though, and the other members of my family quite like it here for their own reasons. They are not overtly into firearms (yet) and have not felt the significant squeeze on small business owners as I have. This is an active conversation in my household though. My kids will likely recognize these issues as they grow into adulthood and experience some of these things for themselves, and develop their own positions on 2A related topics. My wife is also a self-employed person as of recent, and I can already see how that responsibility is making a very positive change for her and her perspective.

The current discussion is to move out of CA once the kids are out of the house and in a place to make decisions for their own lives. Until then, I'm here in CA, and will do all I can to support small business, individualism, and whatever remains of our 2A rights. For now, I'm good with that plan and will make the most of my time here.
  #132  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:29 AM
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Mine was crossed a while ago. I'm taking my skills and tax money to another state.
  #133  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by maidenrules29 View Post
I'm in San Bernardino, at the Mall, CCW-ing my .40 Shield, and wearing my CA. "will not comply" AR-15 shirt. I'm not registering jack ****. I will be moving to either Gardnerville NV. or Idaho soon. OP is correct. The number of true Americans like us in CA. is so miniscule that we will never be able to change it back to what it was. It should just break off from the U.S. and be it's own socialist welfare country full of any immigrants who want to come over.

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Just so you're aware... "moving" is, in fact, complying. I don't blame you, just sayin'.

Anyway, my line in the sand is simple:

When the cons of raising my family here outweigh the pros. As of now, they do not -- and it's not for a lack of looking. The wife and I have been traveling quite a bit looking at places here and places there attempting to find something that is overall better for our family. Not better in one area or another, just overall. Right now, we haven't found it. In terms of 2A, sure, just about everywhere beats California, but with children and careers there is more to weigh than simply what guns I can or can't own or buy.

The biggest issue we're having is the state of the schools, our ability to afford private school when the time comes, and the messed up mindset that these altruistic, entitled people have in this state. It's like a disease. I have a feeling that will be what is finally the "tipping" point, not any gun law.
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  #134  
Old 01-13-2018, 12:09 PM
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Default What is your line in the Sand

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Originally Posted by 9M62 View Post
Just so you're aware... "moving" is, in fact, complying. I don't blame you, just sayin'.

Anyway, my line in the sand is simple:

When the cons of raising my family here outweigh the pros. As of now, they do not -- and it's not for a lack of looking. The wife and I have been traveling quite a bit looking at places here and places there attempting to find something that is overall better for our family. Not better in one area or another, just overall. Right now, we haven't found it. In terms of 2A, sure, just about everywhere beats California, but with children and careers there is more to weigh than simply what guns I can or can't own or buy.

The biggest issue we're having is the state of the schools, our ability to afford private school when the time comes, and the messed up mindset that these altruistic, entitled people have in this state. It's like a disease. I have a feeling that will be what is finally the "tipping" point, not any gun law.


Where have you traveled?

I’m sure a lot depends on careers and such. But I gotta be honest. If you’re both on board than either you haven’t looked very far and wide or much or the truth is you don’t really want to. You’re finding reasons why you can’t or wouldn’t. Which is fine.

Three weeks of driving last summer I found many places I could move to. I just don’t have everyone on board. If I did we’d already be on our way out.

And if you read what I write earlier, there’s waaaay more than guns to it. In fact they’re a small part.
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  #135  
Old 01-13-2018, 12:15 PM
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Where have you traveled?

I’m sure a lot depends on careers and such. But I gotta be honest. If you’re both on board than either you haven’t looked very far and wide or much or the truth is you don’t really want to. You’re finding reasons why you can’t or wouldn’t. Which is fine.

Three weeks of driving last summer I found many places I could move to. I just don’t have everyone on board. If I did we’d already be on our way out.

And if you read what I write earlier, there’s waaaay more than guns to it. In fact they’re a small part.
We've found some places we would never move to, some that we would if a few other things continue to change for the worse here in California, but to date we've yet to find one that outweighs what we have going for us here in California - at this point.

In terms of where? All over brotha, all over. East coast, north, west coast, parts of the south, a few places in Europe and most of the U.K.

Career-wise we'd rather not "move" just yet, but we like to have our options on hand in case the time comes.. we don't want to be unprepared. So we travel for pleasure and when doing so we take note and evaluate if it's somewhere we could live and workout a "pros-cons" list.

We have a few mandatory requirements that eliminate some areas, like Idaho and Arizona to be quite honest... and other than that, we're open minded to doing what's best for our family.

As you said, guns are a very very small part of the decision.
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  #136  
Old 01-13-2018, 3:20 PM
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Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
If you feel the need to lock up your firearm, feel free to do so but don't try to tell me what to do with mine. That is our problem in California, everybody wants a law passed to control other people. After a law for everything is passed, it won't change the way people act, not one bit.
that's because the people elect those that feel they "have to do something" and "there ought to be a law for that".

which pretty answers my question that people that come from oppressive countries come here for a better life and end up voting the same people in office that ran their former home. thus turing ours into a police state.
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  #137  
Old 01-13-2018, 3:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Guns and guitars View Post

They will take your weapons eventually, you know, I know it, we all do. Might not be this year, or next but its coming. Every new unconstitutional law is a step closer. They used to say these laws were needed and they are gun owners as well.
sir that day will come sooner than we think. should Newsom win it's game over. IMO the legislature is fully prepared to pass legislation just waiting for him to win.
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  #138  
Old 01-13-2018, 4:28 PM
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Originally Posted by chris View Post
that's because the people elect those that feel they "have to do something" and "there ought to be a law for that".

which pretty answers my question that people that come from oppressive countries come here for a better life and end up voting the same people in office that ran their former home. thus turing ours into a police state.

Donald Trump used a description of those types of country's and the liberals threw a fit. Those same liberals that hate your guts because you own firearms..
  #139  
Old 01-13-2018, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 9M62 View Post
We have a few mandatory requirements that eliminate some areas, like Idaho and Arizona to be quite honest...
Was your issue with Idaho related to "4-seasons" weather, the political climate up here, or something else? PM OK if you'd prefer not to post here.
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  #140  
Old 01-13-2018, 6:16 PM
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Donald Trump used a description of those types of country's and the liberals threw a fit. Those same liberals that hate your guts because you own firearms..
what sucks there is really no data to back this up. but it does appear to be so especially here in this state. they are so will to give up our freedoms they never had for government control. of course politicians are more than happy with more power.
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  #141  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
Leaving is not 'drawing a line in the sand'. It is literally the opposite. Leaving is capitulation... not making a stand. Just so we are completely clear.

No, it isn’t. That’s basically a straw man as previously explained.

The OP asked at what point you had had enough; that’s how I interpret it. His choice is to stay, others choose to leave, because they won’t take it anymore.

Leaving means the line has been crossed, and is a perfectly legitimate response.

Leaving is not capitulation. Just so we are completely clear, capitulation is staying and registering your semi-auto rifle as an “AW,” and disposing of your LCM’s.

Leaving is a courageous “fu!” to the powers that be, giving them the middle finger as you exit their rigged game with their rigged rules, depriving them of your guns, your LCM’s, and your tax revenue.

Your definition of “line in the sand” is not how others in this thread have defined it.

My line has been crossed. I will do what I have to do to comply with the law short of registration, but I’m making my plans to get out of here in a few years. I wish I had the means to do it sooner.




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  #142  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:40 AM
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Staying or leaving are indistinguishable from a "courage" perspective. If you want to "stand up to the man" you have two choices

1) violent revolution
2) civil disobedience (disobeying the law with the expectation of prosecution)

Pick one, or STFU.
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  #143  
Old 01-14-2018, 1:17 AM
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Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
Staying or leaving are indistinguishable from a "courage" perspective. If you want to "stand up to the man" you have two choices

1) violent revolution
2) civil disobedience (disobeying the law with the expectation of prosecution)

Pick one, or STFU.

Oh, I get it! Agree with your simplistic made up straw man binary choices or “STFU”! Got it! How open minded of you!

Thanks for your posturing definition and demarcation of our only choices, along with your command of what to do if we don’t pick one of them.

How about:

3) Disobeying the law with no expectation of prosecution?

4) Leaving the state, and “standing up to the man” that way?

Pick one or none of them, or default to your chosen bending over capitulation, I could not care any less.

And I won’t be rude or simple minded or dismissive enough to tell you to “STFU” just because you’re butthurt at my ruining your sophistic illogic thru superior reasoning. You’re welcome.
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  #144  
Old 01-14-2018, 1:28 AM
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My great grandparents moved to California in the 1890's. Since then my family has enjoyed a good life here. I liked much of California. But the things I didn't like grew more numerous and/or became worse. It isn't so much about drawing a line in

the sand for me but about having the sand figuratively kicked in my face for too many years. Meanwhile, the state legislature continues pushing gun control legislation which affect no criminals; bills hostile to lawful firearms owners; thrown like so

much crap on a wall seeing what will stick; reveling in self congratulation while trying to apply a public safety shine on their reelection turds which punish only good citizens. I'm ready to leave my home. I'm not retreating from California. I'm just

advancing in another direction. I've been fighting against this crap in California for well over 40-years. Retirement means less acorns to spend in the winter. One doesn't have to live in California to continue support of Calguns or any other worthy

cause. And a gerrymandered vote might mean something living outside a one-party state. I've drawn my line, somewhere else. I just haven't crossed it quite yet. Some either respect a controversial figure like Wayne LaPierre or hate his

living guts. But when I met him the first time many years ago, he shook my hand, looked me square in the eye and told me it's not about guns, it's about freedom. I get it and am glad to see many others posting here get it. I'm hoping even more

come to understand as well with some friendly persuasion. The line in the sand is freedom. Other's mileage may vary of course.
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  #145  
Old 01-14-2018, 7:10 AM
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Just to give you guys an idea of what we are really dealing with here in the heart of the beast of San Francisco: A month ago the SF SPCA actually had robots programmed to harass homeless people deployed in front of their very Posh downtown location. There have been all kinds of problems with people living in tents and making people going to work there feel uncomfortable.

So they get this robot to go around and take pictures and generally make it uncomfortable for the homeless and they move on to the next block. City got wind of this and had them take it off the streets. I guess it didn't work because it was still out there and the homeless people attacked and destroyed it.

Not making this stuff up, it's hilarious and dystopian. Like something out of a Ray Bradbury novel. My point is that these people, who are dyed in the wool anti-gunners culturally down to a person, ok'd a robot that threatened people in public in order to get them to move to another block. These so called liberals that are adamant that we posses and use no guns in our lives are all good with a robot programmed to herd homeless people.

If you proposed a similar robot to terrorize stray cats and dogs, they would have you crucified. If you worked there and you said you were pro 2A, they would probably fire you on the spot. But they are cool with this robot dehumanizing people that they deem a threat.

Don't believe me google the story, it's sci-fi time.

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  #146  
Old 01-14-2018, 8:08 AM
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My line in the sand was twofold:

1 Rumors of long gun registration

2 Getting a phone call from the school about my daughters inappropriate behavior. She stood up for the 2nd Amendment to one of her teachers .

That was enough..... We moved to Texas, and haven't looked back.
  #147  
Old 01-14-2018, 8:09 AM
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In many ways I feel like it has been crossed many times born and raised and living in San Francisco. 3rd generation, but still blue collar and sane. The last straw for me is when the city I love losses its soul, which it has in terms of who lives here. It's the ultimate hypocrisy of the politics here that working people can't afford to live in it anymore, and the cultural / political persecution and groupthink is out of control.

I blame the "high tech" or internet industries, as they are stocked with neo-liberal corporatism types who have money, are not afraid of persecuting people for what they believe, and love the fact that they are gradually weeding out all the old Liberals and hippies who were at least open minded on some level.

Psychopathic, rich, anti-gun, complete elite neo-liberals who decry the constitution and the bill of rights while creating robots to harass homeless people. That's SF 2018. Don't believe me? Google it.

3/4 of the city seems like it's from somewhere else. Slowly turning into a hell for me. Gave up even the concept of raising a family here long ago.
I was watching Bullitt last night and thinking how much San Francisco has changed over the last 50 plus years. It's one of the great tragedies of "progress" in California. It will always be blessed with a beautiful physical setting and a mild climate, but it has become one of the least desirable places to live in the US IMHO.
  #148  
Old 01-14-2018, 8:15 AM
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No, it isn’t. That’s basically a straw man as previously explained.

The OP asked at what point you had had enough; that’s how I interpret it. His choice is to stay, others choose to leave, because they won’t take it anymore.

Leaving means the line has been crossed, and is a perfectly legitimate response.

Leaving is not capitulation. Just so we are completely clear, capitulation is staying and registering your semi-auto rifle as an “AW,” and disposing of your LCM’s.

Leaving is a courageous “fu!” to the powers that be, giving them the middle finger as you exit their rigged game with their rigged rules, depriving them of your guns, your LCM’s, and your tax revenue.

Your definition of “line in the sand” is not how others in this thread have defined it.

My line has been crossed. I will do what I have to do to comply with the law short of registration, but I’m making my plans to get out of here in a few years. I wish I had the means to do it sooner.




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Just do it. I did. It was rough for a while, but we survived, and are far better off!

I agree! Moving is a middle finger to Pelosi, Brown, and Co.

Staying and complying is capitulation.
  #149  
Old 01-14-2018, 9:37 AM
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Just to give you guys an idea of what we are really dealing with here in the heart of the beast of San Francisco: A month ago the SF SPCA actually had robots programmed to harass homeless people deployed in front of their very Posh downtown location. There have been all kinds of problems with people living in tents and making people going to work there feel uncomfortable.



So they get this robot to go around and take pictures and generally make it uncomfortable for the homeless and they move on to the next block. City got wind of this and had them take it off the streets. I guess it didn't work because it was still out there and the homeless people attacked and destroyed it.



Not making this stuff up, it's hilarious and dystopian. Like something out of a Ray Bradbury novel. My point is that these people, who are dyed in the wool anti-gunners culturally down to a person, ok'd a robot that threatened people in public in order to get them to move to another block. These so called liberals that are adamant that we posses and use no guns in our lives are all good with a robot programmed to herd homeless people.



If you proposed a similar robot to terrorize stray cats and dogs, they would have you crucified. If you worked there and you said you were pro 2A, they would probably fire you on the spot. But they are cool with this robot dehumanizing people that they deem a threat.



Don't believe me google the story, it's sci-fi time.




I want to say “unbelievable!,” but the more I think about it, it IS believable. My only question: did you mean to say “SFPD?” Don’t know why the SPCA would move on homeless people.

SF is the worst. Wasn’t that the city that had the anti-gun guy always trying to get more gun laws passed, then they found out he was actually working to funnel guns to gangs, getting some payoff? Self-righteous crook.
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  #150  
Old 01-14-2018, 9:44 AM
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I want to say “unbelievable!,” but the more I think about it, it IS believable.

SF is the worst. Wasn’t that the city that had the anti-gun guy always trying to get more gun laws passed, then they found out he was actually working to funnel guns to gangs, getting some payoff? Self-righteous crook.
Oh yeah man, if you ever want a funny read google Leland Yee. This guy was convicted of multiple felonies including racketeering and selling arms to Islamic terrorists. He was the #1 anti-gun politician in CA and was the father of the anti bullet button legislation which he started touting in around 2011.

FBI went undercover and posed as New York mobsters trying to broker a deal between Islamic Terrorists in the Philippines and arms dealers for all kinds of rocket launchers and explosives as well as, and this is the real kicker, AK-47's.

It was totally glossed over in the anti-gun world and never mentioned once. It was played down by the media. I bring it up all the time to show the ABSURDITY of the anti-gun movement. It's both funny and not funny at the same time.
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"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

  #151  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:44 AM
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Staying or leaving are indistinguishable from a "courage" perspective. If you want to "stand up to the man" you have two choices

1) violent revolution
2) civil disobedience (disobeying the law with the expectation of prosecution)

Pick one, or STFU.
You and I agree on this.

And I am of the view that there are not nearly enough dead tyrants... and too few patriots that will conduct themselves towards that end.
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  #152  
Old 01-14-2018, 11:04 AM
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Leaving is a courageous “fu!” to the powers that be, giving them the middle finger as you exit their rigged game with their rigged rules, depriving them of your guns, your LCM’s, and your tax revenue.
You cannot harm California politicians by leaving. You are in fact, preparing their battlefield for them by giving them what they want. These people do not want any gun owners in California, and leaving deducts from that total number that oppose them. And they are willing to trade whatever minuscule revenue gun owners might have contributed to the state for someone who is disarmed.

It seems that many here have misunderstood what 'Drawing a line in the sand' means... it means HERE, and no further! It is a metaphor meaning the end of compromise,... unlike the straw that broke the camels back...or the 'final straw'... an idiom that cumulative small things are the cause of sudden or great consequences.... like abandoning your home, work, and state because you cant take it anymore.
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  #153  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:43 PM
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You and I agree on this.



And I am of the view that there are not nearly enough dead tyrants... and too few patriots that will conduct themselves towards that end.

And I agree with that basic view as well, but let’s be realistic, starting with who defines the “tyrants” and the “patriots.” You? What was it John Wilkes Booth shouted before he shot Abraham Lincoln? Was he in the majority? One mans tyranny is another mans sensible rule. You had better be careful there. I have no problem calling Harris and Newsom posturing political hacks who would sell their souls for power, but they were elected posturing political hacks. They didn’t just take over in a coup, so Internet bloviating and posing about “patriots” killing tyrants is just that, posing.

The two simplistic choices you agree with followed by the asinine choice to either agree with them or “STFU” are ludicrous, dismissive, insulting, and worse, not particularly bright. I could do better than that with my head in a bag.

Where you two and I differ is that I don’t think staying here and deposing and eliminating tyrants is an option, especially if we can’t muster the support from our own to get a pitiful amount of signatures to put the Gunmageddon issues on the ballot.

You start talking about deposing tyrants you had better be in the majority, not the unmotivated disorganized minority who can’t take 3 minutes to sign a petition that is clearly in their own interest.

So, in that case, leaving the corrupt system to collapse under its own weight is a sensible, viable option.

But if you want to stay here and “stick it to the man,” and not just posture on the Internet, I truly respect that. I try to do my part by supporting the NRA and CRPA, but I know more could be done. So here’s how you do it:

Setup a table outside your house and load it up with your semi-auto “assault weapons” and LCM’s and call a press conference, and announce to the world that you are formally not complying with the new laws.

That will rub their face in it and if enough gun owners followed suit it would challenge them to enforce the ridiculous laws. That would be a brave move I would support.

Or, you could not comply and just keep it to yourself, OR you could leave. But posting nonsense about deposing tyrants as if you somehow have moral superiority over those who have resisted for years and are fleeing to a free state is simplistic and nothing but empty anonymous internet posturing, unless you actually do something, and get like minded people to join your cause.

Since there isn’t enough critical mass on these RKBA issues here in CA to even get a proposition on the ballot, then fighting a holding action prior to getting out of the state seems a prudent thing to do.
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  #154  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:45 PM
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You cannot harm California politicians by leaving. You are in fact, preparing their battlefield for them by giving them what they want. These people do not want any gun owners in California, and leaving deducts from that total number that oppose them. And they are willing to trade whatever minuscule revenue gun owners might have contributed to the state for someone who is disarmed.
Conversely, you can't harm them by staying, either. Your vote is insufficient to make any real difference in the outcome (if it were, we'd already have seen that difference).

Since you cannot harm them whether you stay or not, the question then becomes whether you help them more by staying, or by leaving. The answer, of course, is that you help them more by staying, because by doing so you help fund their initiatives against you.

Thus, if you wish to minimize the benefit they get from you, your most logical choice is to leave.


Quote:
It seems that many here have misunderstood what 'Drawing a line in the sand' means... it means HERE, and no further! It is a metaphor meaning the end of compromise,... unlike the straw that broke the camels back...or the 'final straw'... an idiom that cumulative small things are the cause of sudden or great consequences.... like abandoning your home, work, and state because you cant take it anymore.
That's another valid interpretation of the meaning, but it's not the only one. The other is the equivalent of one's "breaking point", as it were, which others have been using, the point at which you're not going to take it anymore. Escaping to somewhere that the conditions are absent is a valid and logical response to that.

It's not the only valid response. Another valid response is some sort of resistance. The choice to disobey their laws is one such response, but that response will change nothing here, and it increases the risk of eventual incarceration. There are other, more substantial responses, but they are almost certain to result in the same kind of outcome as what happened to Chris Dorner, and they cannot change the eventual outcome either.


The bottom line is this: you're faced with a situation in which the people who make the laws have it in for you and are also effectively untouchable (even if you managed it once, you'd become the new Chris Dorner). There is nothing of consequence you can do to change the landscape in our favor here. NOTHING. Everything you might do that might give them pause will also turn the bulk of the population much more against you than it already is, and you will be getting insufficient support from the outside for it to alter the eventual outcome. And yet, only an actual coup here, followed by what amounts to rule against the population's desires, will yield the results you seek, and the conditions to make that possible simply do not exist. Let that sink in before you insist that the "line in the sand" must be one that compels one to such action.

Only federal intervention against the state will alter this overall picture. But that intervention cannot possibly happen as a result of any actions you might take save perhaps by way of future lawsuits initiated by you. Most certainly, you have to be a resident of the state to initiate such suits, so if that is your intended play, then staying is obviously a necessity. But if that is not what you had in mind, then there is literally nothing you can do, even in conjunction with the cooperation of others, to alter the outcome.

And as such, insisting that someone stay if their line in the sand has been crossed is the equivalent of insisting that someone commit suicide for nothing. There is no value in staying, because there is no action you can take (save for the lawsuit possibility I mentioned) that can possibly result in an alteration of the outcome.
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  #155  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:57 PM
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You start talking about deposing tyrants you had better be in the majority, not the unmotivated disorganized minority who can’t take 3 minutes to sign a petition that is clearly in their own interest.
If we were in the majority, we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with, and there would be no tyrants to depose.

The problem here is that rights are that which you can rightfully assert even in the face of majority opposition to it. But the people in control and the majority that elected them have no respect for or interest in rights. They only want to control others, to turn the place into the very kind of authoritarian wasteland that many of them came from. There is no defense against a majority interest in that, save for federal intervention.


Quote:
But if you want to stay here and “stick it to the man,” and not just posture on the Internet, I truly respect that. I try to do my part by supporting the NRA and CRPA, but I know more could be done. So here’s how you do it:

Setup a table outside your house and load it up with your semi-auto “assault weapons” and LCM’s and call a press conference, and announce to the world that you are formally not complying with the new laws.

That will rub their face in it and if enough gun owners followed suit it would challenge them to enforce the ridiculous laws. That would be a brave move I would support.
It would also be a move that yields no fruit. The response would be outrage amongst the majority, and the people who did that would be picked off one by one by the authorities. Even if a substantial number of gun owners followed suit and somehow managed to band together somewhere (since as individuals, they can be picked off one by one, so their only other alternative would be to band together), the authorities would just cut off their supply lines and wait it out.


The bottom line is that there is no move here that yields a substantially favorable outcome for us. Absent federal intervention, we are finished.
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  #156  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:58 PM
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<Snip>

It seems that many here have misunderstood what 'Drawing a line in the sand' means... it means HERE, and no further! It is a metaphor meaning the end of compromise,... unlike the straw that broke the camels back...or the 'final straw'... an idiom that cumulative small things are the cause of sudden or great consequences.... like abandoning your home, work, and state because you cant take it anymore.

Ok, valid point. I can buy that distinction, and see how the thread morphed one for the other. So, what are you actually going to do, other than talk about making “tyrants” dead, because you’re one of the “patriots?”

Seems to me fighting back as hard as we can within the law is the best we can do, and changing the law is to be hoped for. But we had a golden opportunity to do just that last year with a simple lousy petition and couldn’t get enough gun owners to get off their ***, so please don’t give me internet bravado about holding California and deposing tyrants while the weak sisters flee with their tails between their legs.

Especially when gun owners are outnumbered 7 to 1 here, and maybe 20 to 1 if you just count the gun owners who join 2A organizations and actually do something to help. With those odds, after a lifetime of work and barely holding on I’m ready to leave for a free state.
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  #157  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:59 PM
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Just so you're aware... "moving" is, in fact, complying....
Recognizing where you are and applying a practical solution. You wouldn't keep a car that is broken and can't be fixed, would you? Getting rid of something that isn't worth the cost of fixing is what smart people do.
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  #158  
Old 01-14-2018, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kcbrown View Post
Conversely, you can't harm them by staying, either. Your vote is insufficient to make any real difference in the outcome (if it were, we'd already have seen that difference).



Since you cannot harm them whether you stay or not, the question then becomes whether you help them more by staying, or by leaving. The answer, of course, is that you help them more by staying, because by doing so you help fund their initiatives against you.



Thus, if you wish to minimize the benefit they get from you, your most logical choice is to leave.









That's another valid interpretation of the meaning, but it's not the only one. The other is the equivalent of one's "breaking point", as it were, which others have been using, the point at which you're not going to take it anymore. Escaping to somewhere that the conditions are absent is a valid and logical response to that.



It's not the only valid response. Another valid response is some sort of resistance. The choice to disobey their laws is one such response, but that response will change nothing here, and it increases the risk of eventual incarceration. There are other, more substantial responses, but they are almost certain to result in the same kind of outcome as what happened to Chris Dorner, and they cannot change the eventual outcome either.





The bottom line is this: you're faced with a situation in which the people who make the laws have it in for you and are also effectively untouchable (even if you managed it once, you'd become the new Chris Dorner). There is nothing of consequence you can do to change the landscape in our favor here. NOTHING. Everything you might do that might give them pause will also turn the bulk of the population much more against you than it already is, and you will be getting insufficient support from the outside for it to alter the eventual outcome. And yet, only an actual coup here, followed by what amounts to rule against the population's desires, will yield the results you seek, and the conditions to make that possible simply do not exist. Let that sink in before you insist that the "line in the sand" must be one that compels one to such action.



Only federal intervention against the state will alter this overall picture. But that intervention cannot possibly happen as a result of any actions you might take save perhaps by way of future lawsuits initiated by you. Most certainly, you have to be a resident of the state to initiate such suits, so if that is your intended play, then staying is obviously a necessity. But if that is not what you had in mind, then there is literally nothing you can do, even in conjunction with the cooperation of others, to alter the outcome.



And as such, insisting that someone stay if their line in the sand has been crossed is the equivalent of insisting that someone commit suicide for nothing. There is no value in staying, because there is no action you can take (save for the lawsuit possibility I mentioned) that can possibly result in an alteration of the outcome.


Excellent analysis; much better than mine I have to say. Your second post in response to mine as well was very well put.

Bottom line it’s easy to boast that you will stay here and fight tyranny, and label others as cowards or unpatriotic for leaving, but quite another to be specific as to how you would actually do that.

I support CRPA and the NRA and other pro 2A groups because it’s the right thing to do, not always with the expectation that it will change much of the situation in California.
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  #159  
Old 01-14-2018, 1:41 PM
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Ok, valid point. I can buy that distinction, and see how the thread morphed one for the other. So, what are you actually going to do, other than talk about making “tyrants” dead, because you’re one of the “patriots?”

Seems to me fighting back as hard as we can within the law is the best we can do, and changing the law is to be hoped for. But we had a golden opportunity to do just that last year with a simple lousy petition and couldn’t get enough gun owners to get off their ***, so please don’t give me internet bravado about holding California and deposing tyrants while the weak sisters flee with their tails between their legs.

Especially when gun owners are outnumbered 7 to 1 here, and maybe 20 to 1 if you just count the gun owners who join 2A organizations and actually do something to help. With those odds, after a lifetime of work and barely holding on I’m ready to leave for a free state.


So fight back “as hard as we can” and then what? You fought, you lost, move on. That’s what the tyrants want. You “fight” you legitimize them and their tyranny. And it’s not just guns. I wrote earlier they want to radically reshape kalifornia society. Look at the office of planning and research. It lays out exactly the goals and plans. Condense is into urban metropolises and force us to walk and bike.

The fight has long since ended. We lost. We who desire to live free, guide our own lives and live according to how we want, we lost. It’s not about guns. It’s about liberty. Liberty to live e as you please. But you can’t here. You can’t just live and not break the laws. You must actively follow the laws. You must actively change.

Someone mentioned home schooling. I know about this. My son was homeschooled for a year. The state dictates exactly how you homeschool and you still do so attached to a district. They monitor you. You cannot escape the clutches of the state.

“Fighting” is the facade they need, the charade by which they can justify everything they do. See, your participation is consent. They’ve set the rules and the game. You’ve chosen to play. So you don’t like the outcome, shut up peasant, you consented to the terms. You accepted the outcome exactly by playing.

So don’t play. Don’t participate. Deprive them the legitimacy they need. We had no opportunity last year. You know, everyone around here knows, it would never have been certified. If it was, it wouldn’t have passed. If it passed, it wouldn’t have been enforced. It it was, they’d pass new laws. Cumhola harris, look what she did with the dros wait ruling, the ccw ruling, and the roster micro stamping. You think she, or any of her lackeys and henchmen/women/people would even concede or yield a thing? Keep smoking what is now legal.

Hell, they even rigged the primary and election rules so they keep power. It gives you the outward appearance of ability to change things, but it’s designed so you think you can but can’t. If you can’t see that, I feel sorry for you.

The only thing they can’t do, at least not yet, is build a wall to keep us in. Staying and “fighting” is exactly what they want you to do. You’re accepting servitude.

I get it, leaving isn’t a viable option for a lot of people. We gun people are just the detritus of their designs. They hate us, but it’s not really the guns. It’s the freedom. And you have to understand that controlling where we live, how we drive, and all that, is still control. So gun “control” should make perfect sense.

But the sad reality is unless you’re planning to escape sooner or even later, you’re accepting servitude. But you got your weather and beaches.
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They're not liberals, they're leftists. Please don't use the former for the latter. Liberals are Locke, Jefferson, Burke, Hayek. Leftists are progressives, Prussian state-socialists, fascists. Liberals stand against the state and unequivocally support liberty. Leftists support state tyranny.

  #160  
Old 01-14-2018, 1:48 PM
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warbird warbird is offline
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Time to go underground and hid your weapons. What price will you pay for your freedom and what will you risk? They are going to try and take what you have now or later but it is going to happen. They will tax you into poverty and enslave you with rigged voting. Argue the wording all you want but you are all upset over the same injustices. And if you do not think the government does not monitor every site like this you are crazy. You are all on government lists as the first to be taken down due to your beliefs about freedom and rights. We are all enemies of the state we pay taxes to.
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