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  #41  
Old 06-07-2011, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Fate View Post
Those are made out of ZINC! Shear strength is about 300 lbs. Pretty easy to generate that kind of force. Which is good because otherwise you will have permanently installed your safe, never to be moved.

My safe is held down by 3/8" x 4" Rawl "5 piece" bolts. We use these for rock climbing protection anchors and are good for holding 5000 lb worth of force. I can also take them back out if I wish to relocate the safe. This isn't possible with those hammer-in studs some people use.
Good points. I dont think Ill use the hammer-in studs just in case I need to move it in the future.

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Originally Posted by FXR View Post
I just looked at the Costco safe offerings - how is this $3500?!
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...nav=&Nty=1&s=1
Im sure none of that 3500 went to true protection, more for display purposes. I would never pay that much for something like that, Id rather put that money into real protection. I wish I had that much right now for a safe.
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  #42  
Old 06-08-2011, 8:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sandman21 View Post
UL rating is meaningless for anything hung in a building in CA, just FYI, ICC-ES approval or an equivalent, LARR or IAPMO, UL is not, there are ways around the requirements however they are not easy.

The safe will be fine not bolted down in a seismic event, it would be a precentage of the weight

In residential construction soils is the reason for the post tension slabs. Post and pre tensioning are used everywhere, parking garages, some school, commercial, office, and bridge.

Lots of large warehouses are starting to post tension slab on grade, forklifts are royal *****es on slabs.
A 3/8” Hilti HDI is good for 870# in 2000psi conc. and 1115 in 4000psi, just be aware that not all jobs will accept HDI’s or similar, I personally don’t allow them, it a good thing to find out beforehand.
Concrete has almost no tension capacity, the reason for adding rebar, cracks are caused when the tension capacity of concrete is exceeded. Post tension slabs force all or most of the slab into compression.

If people need to bolt to post tensioned slabs, locate the tension strands, even if you are not going to drill deep enough to hit a strand that is in the correct position, there are anchorage and the ends of the strands, so be aware.
I've done a ton of OSHPOD jobs and labs when I was still working in the trade (sheet metal worker/mechanical). I was usually a layout guy and fireman (problem solver) so finding different ways within the project specs was one of my specialty's. I used to have a large part of the I.S.A.T. cataloge memorized. But unlike my boss, I had to do all the work too. No trailer time for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FXR View Post


These are a little harder to remove than the rawl bolts - you'll have to beat them in deeper or cut them with a sawzall if you didn't drill the hole deep enough. They have the advantage that they can be had in longer / larger diameter sizes then normal rawl bolts. (they do make huge rawls, but they aren't sold everywhere.) 4 or these, with the biggest washers you can find, plus a 1/2" lag screw at the top into the wall studs behind/next to the safe, and moving the safe will not be an issue.
Wedge anchors, these work great if you can get them set and hit em square. If not they can spin when you torque them down. Epoxy and studs is also an option, but the holes need to be clean, no dust at all so the epoxy can take a hold.
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  #43  
Old 06-08-2011, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
I've done a ton of OSHPOD jobs and labs when I was still working in the trade (sheet metal worker/mechanical). I was usually a layout guy and fireman (problem solver) so finding different ways within the project specs was one of my specialty's. I used to have a large part of the I.S.A.T. cataloge memorized. But unlike my boss, I had to do all the work too. No trailer time for me.
Just a warning, OSHPOD standards are not accepted outside of OSHPOD, several MEP contractors have learned that the hard way, they did not like the testing requirements for blue bangers. So doing things the way it has always been done can get you in trouble.
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  #44  
Old 06-08-2011, 9:30 PM
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I worked on a big name hotel remodel- (on a small section of the hotel) & the electrician had to x-ray the tensioned slab for core drilling 1-1/2" holes for conduit through 11 floors!! Even with the x-ray pics he still hit one, I was 75' away & I felt the floor rumble as it made a whipping sound under my feet & I herd a loud bang when it slammed against the parking structure built right up against it!

The hotel patrons had no clue at all.........
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  #45  
Old 06-09-2011, 4:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Rocket Man View Post
I worked on a big name hotel remodel- (on a small section of the hotel) & the electrician had to x-ray the tensioned slab for core drilling 1-1/2" holes for conduit through 11 floors!! Even with the x-ray pics he still hit one, I was 75' away & I felt the floor rumble as it made a whipping sound under my feet & I herd a loud bang when it slammed against the parking structure built right up against it!

The hotel patrons had no clue at all.........
Was the electrician okay?
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  #46  
Old 06-09-2011, 6:49 PM
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I'm curious, but is the tension on residential cables different from the tension on big commercial buildings and parking structures?

I took pics every step of the way while my house was built, and the cables were less than 1/2" diameter. Seems like a 1/2 cable would break long before it had enough tension to whip through concrete like butter, but i'm just speculating.

On a side note, I was recently up at West Coast Safes, they offer high end safes with delivery and installation. I asked about the post tensioned slab, they said that in 30 years, they have hit two cables- but heres the suprising fact- it did nothing. They said that their masonry bit just stopped against the steel, as masonry bits are quite dull, so they just moved the safe an inch over and drilled a new hole. No exploded concrete or people cut in half.

I would imagine that a concrete saw or coring bit would cause problems, but a simple drill just stops against the steel, and a few damaged strands in a cable with a few hundred strands might not matter.
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  #47  
Old 06-09-2011, 7:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuda440 View Post
I'm curious, but is the tension on residential cables different from the tension on big commercial buildings and parking structures?

I took pics every step of the way while my house was built, and the cables were less than 1/2" diameter. Seems like a 1/2 cable would break long before it had enough tension to whip through concrete like butter, but i'm just speculating.

On a side note, I was recently up at West Coast Safes, they offer high end safes with delivery and installation. I asked about the post tensioned slab, they said that in 30 years, they have hit two cables- but heres the suprising fact- it did nothing. They said that their masonry bit just stopped against the steel, as masonry bits are quite dull, so they just moved the safe an inch over and drilled a new hole. No exploded concrete or people cut in half.

I would imagine that a concrete saw or coring bit would cause problems, but a simple drill just stops against the steel, and a few damaged strands in a cable with a few hundred strands might not matter.
Yes, commercial cables are under much greater stress, a magnitude or two more, I would still not want to damage a strand.
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  #48  
Old 06-09-2011, 9:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
From what I have noticed is post tension slabs tend to be thinner, and lighter. Saves money on the mix and rebar since less is used for post tension slabs. Also I have never seen any post tension for commercial construction, only residential and this includes high rise apartment buildings. All commercial buildings I see have corrugated pan deck with rebar laid on iron beams or truss systems.
Residential builder here - in my experience the PT slabs are necessary due to soil conditions. Expansive soils to be more specific. They swell when wet and shrink when the dry. And that will crack the foundation over time.

We have to moisture condition the soil (get it wet) under the slab to a predetermined % and then hurry up and pour the slab. The cables are already pre-tensioned and in place and then the concrete mix, which is different than conventional slab-on-grade mix, is poured on the cables and rebar. There will typically be some heavier duty footings around the perimeter than what we can do for conventional slabs.

All this means that the PT slabs are more expensive than conventional. More material, more know-how, and more labor.

All that said, I wouldn't recommend drilling into a PT slab. But it happens all the time and you don't see houses blowing up.
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  #49  
Old 06-10-2011, 8:10 PM
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Was the electrician okay?
NO! I think he soiled himself heh heh
there's no visable damage- the cable wants to blow out the edge of the slab thats all, and in this case a parking structure was poured up against the hotel.
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  #50  
Old 07-09-2011, 9:48 PM
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Ok so the safe is being delivered this Tuesday. I want to make sure I have everything I'll need to bolt it down.

I plan on renting a hammer drill from home depot and buying four of these anchors.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...atalogId=10053

Along with some big washers, is there anything else I need? Also, Im assuming that I drill the holes through the safe and not drill then move the safe into position.

Let me know if Im doing something wrong or need something else. Thanks.
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  #51  
Old 07-09-2011, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainsaw View Post
For that reason, I'm uncomfortable relying purely on the hold-down bolts in the bottom of the safe. If you look at the lever arm (safe is 72" tall, 27" deep, weighs 1300 lbs, the bolts are spaced about 20 inches, there are only 3 hold-down bolts in the bottom, and a 0.65g earthquake is directed so all the load ends up on a single bolt), then the total force on the one unlucky anchor bolt can be as high as 1500 lbs. While a 1/2" redhead anchor in a 2500# slab should theoretically handle that, there is darn little safety margin. With 1/2" lag bolts into floor joists, there is no way to hold the safe down in an earthquake. That's why I also secure the safe at the top; the lever arm there is much better (72" of lever arm rather than 20"), so a small number of concrete anchors or lag bolts can be very effective.
This guy knows his ****. Tagging this thread for more info
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  #52  
Old 07-10-2011, 6:52 AM
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Another way to get the dust from the hole is to use a cheap plastic funnel. Place the small end of the funnel in the hole you drilled and place the hose from your shop vac into the top of the funnel and all of the dust from the hole should be sucked up. It worked for me when I bolted down my safe and is not messy like blowing it out with plastic tubing will be.
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  #53  
Old 07-11-2011, 6:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Toyman321 View Post
I havnt noticed any labeling, house was build in 1970??
They didn't have post tension slabs in houses in the 70's.
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  #54  
Old 07-11-2011, 2:35 PM
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I live just down the street from La Canada in 91214. I bolted my Costco safe in the garage. Concrete slab. Not post tensioned. If someone wants your safe, they'll get it one way or another. The secret is to keep it a secret.

I have my safe turned sideways. If you look at it from the garage door, it doesn't look like a safe. You can't see the keypad or turn-knob unless you move to the far right of the garage. I'm going to build a cabinet around the safe so it just looks like the rest of the closet and work bench area.

Probably even put some Boxer, Feinstein, Obama and Greenpeace posters in there for added effect!
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  #55  
Old 07-12-2011, 1:56 PM
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Originally Posted by FXR View Post


These are a little harder to remove than the rawl bolts - you'll have to beat them in deeper or cut them with a sawzall if you didn't drill the hole deep enough. They have the advantage that they can be had in longer / larger diameter sizes then normal rawl bolts. (they do make huge rawls, but they aren't sold everywhere.) 4 or these, with the biggest washers you can find, plus a 1/2" lag screw at the top into the wall studs behind/next to the safe, and moving the safe will not be an issue.

I just looked at the Costco safe offerings - how is this $3500?!
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...nav=&Nty=1&s=1
Best response so far OP ^

Just get 4- 5/8" X 5 to 8" long redheads at home depot, borrow or rent a hammer drill. There will be some dust. The lead anchors and the zinc hammered-pin types pictured in one of the posts will NOT be sufficient. I guess you could use the epoxy type but a tube of simpson set 22 is like 25 bucks now! And you have to really clean the drilled holes thouroughly which means ALOT of dust (recomended way to clean holes is air compressed air and bottle brush) Also with the red head bolts you can easily unbolt the safe should you need to remove it.
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  #56  
Old 07-12-2011, 1:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brassburnz View Post
I live just down the street from La Canada in 91214. I bolted my Costco safe in the garage. Concrete slab. Not post tensioned. If someone wants your safe, they'll get it one way or another. The secret is to keep it a secret.

I have my safe turned sideways. If you look at it from the garage door, it doesn't look like a safe. You can't see the keypad or turn-knob unless you move to the far right of the garage. I'm going to build a cabinet around the safe so it just looks like the rest of the closet and work bench area.

Probably even put some Boxer, Feinstein, Obama and Greenpeace posters in there for added effect!
What you say is true but preventing the thugs from flipping the safe on its back greatly limits their leverage for a pry attack and it also slows them down from just taking the whole thing. Bolting safe down is a MUST especially for the lower end safes.
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  #57  
Old 07-13-2011, 9:13 AM
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Ok guys, the safe was delivered yesterday. I've gotten some really good advice for bolting it down in this thread. I think I know everything I need to get it securely bolted. Here is a picture of the safe.



The safe looks very nice in person, it is of much better quality that I originally thought. For $800 delivered into my garage, this is a steal.


However, before I can go about bolting it, I need to get it off the pallet that it came on. What's the easiest way to do this? I dont have a heavy duty dolley or anything like that, however, I can always rent one. The safe is in the location that I want to bolt it down too, but it needs to come off the pallet. Let me know how you guys got it off and into place. Any tips and advice appreciated.
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  #58  
Old 07-13-2011, 12:23 PM
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You'll have to tilt it over by hand till it slips off the pallet. Can't think of any other way. Once its on the floor you'll have to push/walk it into postion. Might be tough by your self, but not impossible.
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  #59  
Old 07-13-2011, 12:35 PM
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There is a video on YouTube that shows how to get the safe off of a pallet by yourself, search for "moving a safe" Worked perfect to me.
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  #60  
Old 07-13-2011, 1:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brassburnz View Post
I live just down the street from La Canada in 91214. I bolted my Costco safe in the garage. Concrete slab. Not post tensioned. If someone wants your safe, they'll get it one way or another. The secret is to keep it a secret.

I have my safe turned sideways. If you look at it from the garage door, it doesn't look like a safe. You can't see the keypad or turn-knob unless you move to the far right of the garage. I'm going to build a cabinet around the safe so it just looks like the rest of the closet and work bench area.

Probably even put some Boxer, Feinstein, Obama and Greenpeace posters in there for added effect!
lol, pretending to be an antigunner is one that I haven't heard of before. Another layer of security is to have no trace of gun ownership in your home. If a thief sees something in your house that indicates that you own guns, he's going to go looking for that safe or stash right away. If you came into my house, you would never know that I enjoyed shooting.
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  #61  
Old 07-13-2011, 2:49 PM
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Thanks for the responses guys, Ill try and take it off the pallet tonight.
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