Can I open carry in my frontyard?

[OneHotDog]

My frontyard faces the street. I live in LA county. Can I carry my loaded gun in a holster in the open on my property?



1hd

[P5Ret]

Yes but expect a visit when the neighbors call the police or sheriff. Expect to see guns drawn, because the call will no doubt go out as a "man with a gun". It is also legal to carry concealed on your property or place of business, so that may be a better way to go. The less attention you draw to yourself the better off you are.

[littlejake]

Yes, you will draw a SWAT team in LA county. If your front yard is not fenced, then it's an area where you're in legal limbo as to your property rights -- i.e. People can walk across your front yard. In this unfenced area, if you happen to be in a school zone, you risk prosecution under the GFSZ laws.

Worst case, the police tell you to lie prone, you refuse, and they shoot you 100 times.

[greg36f]

Originally Posted by OneHotDog

My frontyard faces the street. I live in LA county. Can I carry my loaded gun in a holster in the open on my property?



1hd

Absolutely........there really is no better way to tell all the s&^%heads in your neighborhood that you have guns......The little rascals always have such a hard time deciding what house to burg next…….This is a big help.

Stand by for lots of conflicting info that may or may not get your into trouble.

The real answer is “it depends”…..

It depends on fences, gates, locks, access, and on and on and on…

I think it’s a terrible idea even if you work out all the legal points.

[OneHotDog]

Originally Posted by littlejake

Yes, you will draw a SWAT team in LA county. If your front yard is not fenced, then it's an area where you're in legal limbo as to your property rights -- i.e. People can walk across your front yard. In this unfenced area, if you happen to be in a school zone, you risk prosecution under the GFSZ laws.

Worst case, the police tell you to lie prone, you refuse, and they shoot you 100 times.

Just for carrying a gun on my own property? Surely you jest.

And yes my frontyard is not fenced. I am not in a GFSZ.


So I have no gun rights and no property rights. There is no castle doctrine in California that I know of. Sooooo, what rights do I have to protect my family? Do I have I right to jump in front of a bullet intended for my kids? Do I have a right to call the cops before someone touches my kids or wife? Tell me SOMETHING reassuring....

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by OneHotDog

Just for carrying a gun on my own property? Surely you jest.

And yes my frontyard is not fenced. I am not in a GFSZ.

If it is not fenced, it is open to the public, you will be arrested for illegal UOC.

[hornswaggled]

What they could get you for is carrying a loaded firearm in a public place, and yes I realize that your yard is your property. There have been cases of people getting charged while standing in their own driveway with a loaded gun, and in LA you DEFINITELY will if the cops know about it.

[greg36f]

Originally Posted by OneHotDog

Just for carrying a gun on my own property? Surely you jest.

And yes my frontyard is not fenced. I am not in a GFSZ.


So I have no gun rights and no property rights. There is no castle doctrine in California that I know of. Sooooo, what rights do I have to protect my family? Do I have I right to jump in front of a bullet intended for my kids? Do I have a right to call the cops before someone touches my kids or wife? Tell me SOMETHING reassuring....

You my friend; have found a home here on Cal Guns "Off Topic"......

[OneHotDog]

Originally Posted by taperxz

If it is not fenced, it is open to the public, you will be arrested for illegal UOC.

So, open carry on my property is illegal. Nice.

I hate this cesspool called California.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by OneHotDog

So, open carry on my property is illegal. Nice.

I hate this cesspool called California.

No, that was the answer to your OP. Things would be different with a fenced property, or inside your home.

[littlejake]

you might want to read the wiki article of GFSZ's -- it has nothing to do with school zone signs -- it's 1000 feet. You cannot sling a dead cat in LA County and not hit a GFSZ. And 1000 ft from what -- school perimeter? not defined.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Gun_Free_School_Zones

[taperxz]

It should also be mentioned that you were referring to a handgun being holstered. Open carry of long guns has not been outlawed (yet) and would be legal if you were not in a GFSZ

[Twiggz]

Back yard is fine as long as it's fenced in and in your house is fine. You could build a fence in the front yard and carry, but that's still iffy IMO.

[Librarian]

And the long answer to this FAQ is at the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Un...oncealed_Carry

[killathrilla]

...

[Coded-Dude]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again......I don't know, can you ?

[meaty-btz]

Walled Gardens folks. Wall up your house and property.. Good way to keep goblins, street types, and salesmen at bay.

[P5Ret]

25850. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when the
person carries a loaded firearm on the person or in a vehicle while
in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city
or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area
of unincorporated territory.

Seems pretty simple. I see nothing that says your yard has to have a fence, nor is your front yard a public place. Yes it is open, and people may pass through neighbors may take a short cut across your driveway, but it is not a public place.

Yes California does have a Castle Doctrine law and has had for well over 100 years, read PC section 198.5.

[Liberty1]

Case law says 'have a fence stay out of jail'.

People v Strider

http://blogs.findlaw.com/california_...o-b204571.html

[killmime1234]

Originally Posted by P5Ret

25850. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when the
person carries a loaded firearm on the person or in a vehicle while
in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city
or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area
of unincorporated territory.

Seems pretty simple. I see nothing that says your yard has to have a fence, nor is your front yard a public place. Yes it is open, and people may pass through neighbors may take a short cut across your driveway, but it is not a public place.

Yes California does have a Castle Doctrine law and has had for well over 100 years, read PC section 198.5.

It's been opined, by which authority I can't remember, that it is still considered a "public place" if it is publicly accessible, regardless of property lines. I believe you'll find that information in the FAQ page Librarian posted.

ETA: Liberty1 beat me to the punch.

[OneHotDog]

Originally Posted by P5Ret

25850. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when the
person carries a loaded firearm on the person or in a vehicle while
in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city
or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area
of unincorporated territory.

Seems pretty simple. I see nothing that says your yard has to have a fence, nor is your front yard a public place. Yes it is open, and people may pass through neighbors may take a short cut across your driveway, but it is not a public place.

Sorry, but the calguns wiki link above stands in direct opposition to your statement.

[P5Ret]

Originally Posted by Liberty1

Case law says 'have a fence stay out of jail'.

People v Strider

http://blogs.findlaw.com/california_...o-b204571.html

Not really applicable to the situation, as the defendant did not own or live at the property, and basically ran from the police, at a known gang house where there had been previous shootings.

[P5Ret]

Originally Posted by OneHotDog

Sorry, but the calguns wiki link above stands in direct opposition to your statement.

I'll stick with the quoted law from the penal code, which shows no requirement to have a fence around your property.

[OneHotDog]

Originally Posted by P5Ret

Not really applicable to the situation, as the defendant did not own or live at the property, and basically ran from the police, at a known gang house where there had been previous shootings.

Yeah, but the problem is, the cops can't distinguish a property owner from any other random open carry citizen. So they have to assume the OC is illegal. Fence or no fence. I am guessing.

Well, whatever the law says, its so vague, I don't know how anyone can defend their property and family without running afoul of the law. This is just a pathetic situation.

BTW, in case you haven't guessed yet, I am completely new to carrying guns for self-defense. Up to now, I've only done target shooting for pleasure and never actively attempted to protect anything (even myself!).

[mdimeo]

Originally Posted by P5Ret

I'll stick with the quoted law from the penal code, which shows no requirement to have a fence around your property.

Have fun in the lockup!

[Glock22Fan]

Wow, some of you sure are bursting to expose your ignorance (and I don't mean the OP, although he seemed initially reluctant to believe the advice given "Surely you jest?").

It has been said over and over again that common sense isn't very commmon sense in California and the exemplar of that is that your property can still be public property. At least, that's the way the courts here see it. Doesn't matter if you don't like it, doesn't matter if your dictionary says different, anywhere the public has access, it does not matter who owns it, can be treated as public property. The only way to be safe is behind a locked, or at least lockable, barrier. (fence with lockable gate, your front (or garage) door or where ever else you can ban public acccess).

And p5Ret, try looking up People v. Overturf and the court case a while back involving one of our members, Theseus. Play silly games and ignore case law, win stupid prizes.

[greg36f]

Originally Posted by OneHotDog
Just for carrying a gun on my own property? Surely you jest.

And yes my frontyard is not fenced. I am not in a GFSZ.


So I have no gun rights and no property rights. There is no castle doctrine in California that I know of. Sooooo, what rights do I have to protect my family? Do I have I right to jump in front of a bullet intended for my kids? Do I have a right to call the cops before someone touches my kids or wife? Tell me SOMETHING reassuring....


OP, I will not get into the legal debate already discussed here because others are moiré qualified and articulate.

I will say this though. Try not to get sucked into the negative attitude that is too often on display here on Cal Guns.

California is not perfect and there are many laws that should not exist or need changing; but it's not as bad as some will lead you to believe. We have pretty good laws that allow you to protect yourself in your home and there are exceptions that allow you to bring your gun into your yard or even a "true" public space if need be.

If you hear you kids cry for help and some guy is attacking them with a shovel in your yard, blaze away.

If your neighbor is getting beaten to death in the street, you are good to go protecting him / her.

Just because you cannot walk around your front yard with a gun does not mean all is lost.

Don’t get sucked into the negative. It will just blind you to the positive and make you one more angry gun owner.

[Wiz-of-Awd]

"I think"

...deliberately testing your neighbors and the law regarding your 2A rights is a step in the wrong direction. Know your rights and exercise them, but be careful to not impose them onto others who have rights as well.

This kind of "publicity" is very much to blame, when the attention it gains turns into legislation against your (our) rights.

A.W.D.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by P5Ret

25850. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when the
person carries a loaded firearm on the person or in a vehicle while
in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city
or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area
of unincorporated territory.

Seems pretty simple. I see nothing that says your yard has to have a fence, nor is your front yard a public place. Yes it is open, and people may pass through neighbors may take a short cut across your driveway, but it is not a public place.

Yes California does have a Castle Doctrine law and has had for well over 100 years, read PC section 198.5.

You have missed many points in your assumptions. First and foremost UOC of a handgun in this situation is now illegal. (there are many exemptions)

You also need to understand trespass laws. Even in the country, without posting or fencing, a property may be private but the assumption of public access is what the courts would look at. Without signs or fencing the public can assume ones property is accessible until the private property owner orders them to leave. 200 acres of land is no different than a city lot.

CA law will always consider under current law, unposted or un fenced property to be publicly accessible thus, creating your inability to openly carry a handgun in these areas where shooting is prohibited and short of an LTC. Posting and fencing is a game changer. You now have private, inaccessible property.

You MAY still openly carry a long gun, except in a GFSZ

[Decoligny]

Originally Posted by littlejake

Yes, you will draw a SWAT team in LA county. If your front yard is not fenced, then it's an area where you're in legal limbo as to your property rights -- i.e. People can walk across your front yard. In this unfenced area, if you happen to be in a school zone, you risk prosecution under the GFSZ laws.

Worst case, the police tell you to lie prone, you refuse, and they shoot you 100 times.

I don't know why people insist on combining two seperate and distinct laws.

GFSZ law has nothing to do with the "public area" which is an unfenced front yard.

The "public area" reference has to do with the law against having a loaded firearm in an incorporated city, or in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

They do not apply to each other.

I live in unicorporated Kern County. I can legally carry a loaded firearm (openly or concealed) on my own front lawn. It wouldn't matter one bit if I lived right across the street for an elementary school.

[Decoligny]

Originally Posted by taperxz

If it is not fenced, it is open to the public, you will be arrested for illegal UOC.

However, on his own property he can carry concealed, he just can't carry loaded.

[P5Ret]

So if my front yard is a "public place" as some have suggested, and I lived in the city of Palo Alto, it would be a crime for me to smoke in my front yard? they have a no smoking in public place ordinance their definition of a public place seem to be pretty much in line with what all the lawyers here are saying. Pretty interesting good thing I don't smoke or feel the need to draw unwanted attention to myself by carrying a loaded gun in my front yard, not that anyone could see me as my closest neighbor is about 100 yards away.

Easiest way to stay out of trouble, having learned from an older brother who couldn't stay out of trouble is to not draw attention to yourself in the first place. Kind of what I said in the first post I made in this thread.

[rayrayz]

Originally Posted by OneHotDog

Just for carrying a gun on my own property? Surely you jest.

And yes my frontyard is not fenced. I am not in a GFSZ.


So I have no gun rights and no property rights. There is no castle doctrine in California that I know of. Sooooo, what rights do I have to protect my family? Do I have I right to jump in front of a bullet intended for my kids? Do I have a right to call the cops before someone touches my kids or wife? Tell me SOMETHING reassuring....

nope, he does not. on the bright side you can have guns inside..... Sucks that we do not have a castle doctrine......
As another member pointed out, you may not want thugs to know that you have guns as this may put targets on your home.

[Coded-Dude]

Originally Posted by P5Ret

So if my front yard is a "public place" as some have suggested, and I lived in the city of Palo Alto, it would be a crime for me to smoke in my front yard? they have a no smoking in public place ordinance their definition of a public place seem to be pretty much in line with what all the lawyers here are saying. Pretty interesting good thing I don't smoke or feel the need to draw unwanted attention to myself by carrying a loaded gun in my front yard, not that anyone could see me as my closest neighbor is about 100 yards away.

Easiest way to stay out of trouble, having learned from an older brother who couldn't stay out of trouble is to not draw attention to yourself in the first place. Kind of what I said in the first post I made in this thread.

I can't seem them citing fro smoking in your yard(but who knows, this is CA).....now citing/arresting you for public intoxication in your own yard?(happens all the time I'm sure).

[supra]

Originally Posted by P5Ret

I'll stick with the quoted law from the penal code, which shows no requirement to have a fence around your property.

It seems simple enough. However, case law will further define terms such as "public place" ect. If you want to keep your gun rights, you should take the advice given by Calguns and informed Calgunners like Librarian.

Interpreting the penal code yourself without any case law to support your opinion is a good way to get yourself in trouble. The LEO, DA, and/or judge does not care about your interpretation of the law.

[steelcore]

Originally Posted by P5Ret

Easiest way to stay out of trouble, having learned from an older brother who couldn't stay out of trouble is to not draw attention to yourself in the first place. Kind of what I said in the first post I made in this thread.

I agree. Why push the envelope? Do you NEED to carry a gun in your front yard? Are you there for hours, exposed to drive-by shootings?

Just carry concealed on your property if you honestly want protection. I've done it when I was concerned about retaliation, but no one would have EVER known I had a condition 1 weapon on me.

If you want to draw negative attention and make your neighbors unfriendly and doubt your intentions, go ahead and show off that pistol. Might as well carry a sign on a stick as well, cause I'd take that as a cry for attention if my neighbors did that.

[odysseus]

These threads come up all the time. I have to always ask, if you had an attorney, what answer do you think your attorney would recommend you do for your own best interest?

Most probably that while perhaps you might think you are in a position to argue about it in court, your attorney might tell you that it is slippery, you could be arrested anyway and put in jail and have to post bond, you could lose a criminal court case on a myriad of reasons, and it will cost you a lot of money either way even if you won. Is it worth it? Sure we all need test cases, cases that go further to test the law and liberty. Do you want to be and even can you be that person?

...and as mentioned, people concealed carry on their property all the time and no one is the wiser. Quasi public access on private owned property is tricky to carry loaded on and LE in most urban\suburban areas will have an arrest first policy. Open carry in today's society brings in a lot of issues from the unwashed masses. Yes - it shouldn't be this way, but it is the state of things.

[OneHotDog]

Originally Posted by steelcore

I agree. Why push the envelope? Do you NEED to carry a gun in your front yard? Are you there for hours, exposed to drive-by shootings?

Just carry concealed on your property if you honestly want protection. I've done it when I was concerned about retaliation, but no one would have EVER known I had a condition 1 weapon on me.

If you want to draw negative attention and make your neighbors unfriendly and doubt your intentions, go ahead and show off that pistol. Might as well carry a sign on a stick as well, cause I'd take that as a cry for attention if my neighbors did that.

Yeah, but if my property is considered a public area according to case law, carrying concealed is also not an option. The bottomline is that you cannot be outside in a public area and carry a firearm without a LTC.

This goes back to my question that I posted over at the LTC discussion forum. No permit, no carry, no protection.

Okay, you say "OP, if a bad guy accosts you or your family, just go in the house and get your firearm". Hey, no problem, except my firearms are locked and the ammo is locked and they in two different locations. (I have small curious children that wanna grab and touch everything. So I'm safety conscious, and not just because this cesspool called California requires me to be. I don't want my children hurt.) Meanwhile, the bad guys have already hurt my kids or wife.

I'll risk the unlawful concealed carry on my property if I have to though.

[greg36f]

Originally Posted by OneHotDog

Yeah, but if my property is considered a public area according to case law, carrying concealed is also not an option. The bottomline is that you cannot be outside in a public area and carry a firearm without a LTC.

This goes back to my question that I posted over at the LTC discussion forum. No permit, no carry, no protection.

Okay, you say "OP, if a bad guy accosts you or your family, just go in the house and get your firearm". Hey, no problem, except my firearms are locked and the ammo is locked and they in two different locations. (I have small curious children that wanna grab and touch everything. So I'm safety conscious, and not just because this cesspool called California requires me to be. I don't want my children hurt.) Meanwhile, the bad guys have already hurt my kids or wife.

I'll risk the unlawful concealed carry on my property if I have to though.

OP, you are confusing "public access" and "public property".

[steelcore]

First, why would you get arrested for a concealed carry on your own property? Only if you were drawing attention, right? No police officer would make contact with you unprovoked.

If someone confronts you on the lawn and you don't make some effort to retreat before drawing your weapon, it's a sign of aggression. That's how the police and judge will look at it. It doesn't matter AT ALL how you view it. They make the decisions. Don't be the guy that makes law more strict because he wanted to see how far he could push the grey area of the laws.

If you need to be outside and carry a gun while your children play, move to a different area. Saying "it costs a lot to move" isn't valid either, because nothing is worth more than family.