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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#241
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Yes, it should be legal to do an AOW on a pistol with a fixed mag. The fixed mag keeps it out of the AW realm in which the VFG would be an evil feature. I think vandal has a good idea in the way he is gonna do the process.
pto, I don't see why you couldn't build it up in Title 1 configuration and file the Form 1 afterwards. Then, after the Form comes back approved, put the VFG on and make it Title 2. edit: +1 on the pistol definition. AFAIK, CA has no AOW definition. So AOW is not a type of firearm in CA law. However, CA says that if a specific firearm is a federally defined AOW and lawfully possessed federally, then it is exempt from all of the 12020 prohibitions.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Last edited by ke6guj; 06-13-2008 at 9:17 AM.. |
#243
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Just curious, what would stop someone from building an AK style firearm the same way, AOW the firearm for the SBR exemption, and replace the 16" barrel with a krink style barrel? Would this not make it a non assult weapon, detatchable mag short barrel firearm? Last edited by AYEAREFIFTEEN; 06-13-2008 at 11:37 AM.. |
#244
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If you had it registered as an AOW (and I'm not sure if a 16"/26" PG-only firearm could be) once you put the pistol barrel on, you've created a CA pistol. CA defines pistol as any firearm with a <16" barrel. And if it is a CA pistol, then it must comply with the CA pistol AW rules, and that means no detachable mag for you.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#245
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I think pistol is also defined as "can be concealed.....blah blah." Don't see many people trying to jam a krink down their pants and conceal it. Edit: I got the "handgun" and "pistol" deffinitions mixed up in my last sentence. You are correct about the 16" length. I'm still curious about the AOW status though not making the firearm a pistol. Last edited by AYEAREFIFTEEN; 06-13-2008 at 12:14 PM.. |
#246
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#247
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I guess what I'm trying to say is if its okay to AOW your cruiser to chop the barrel under 16" and it is not considered a pistol/handgun/concealable firearm, why not an AK? |
#248
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I may be wrong on this and CA may not consider an AOW to be a pistol, but I am taking the safe approach until proven otherwise.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#249
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Don't you have to file tax returns on a trust, or some other yearly thing?
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WTB: SWISS & German police trade in pistols WTB: German made & proofed SIG P226R & P228R WTB: Factory cutaway pistols & rifles WTB: LAPD Ithaca M37 / CHP S&W / Other PD trade ins.... |
#250
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In the mean time I've got a Cruiser requiring an AOW status. If only... |
#251
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AFAIK, you only have tax issues if the trust makes a profit, and those can be claimed on the grantor's tax returns.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#252
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Smoothbore. That is what makes the "cruiser" shotgun an AOW and not a pistol.
And good luck on the MCS. Even going through my department I cannot even get the fore end or action bars from Remington. Justin
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[SIZE="4]For any questions contact me by email. Thanks, Justin[/SIZE] Quote:
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#253
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I once spoke to CA-DOJ about corporate ownership of firearms and their line was that only "living" entities could own firearms in CA. Trust I have an idea about, but LLC's and corporations I have no Idea what the procedure for transfer would entail... any thoughts... If this was covered please point me in the right direction...
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oh this... It's a Single Cylinder - Single Stroke,
Internal Combustion Engine, with a Free Floating Piston... |
#255
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Too bad most things in life are not this easy.... Justin
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[SIZE="4]For any questions contact me by email. Thanks, Justin[/SIZE] Quote:
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#256
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Mossberg 500 JIC Thats an example...
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oh this... It's a Single Cylinder - Single Stroke,
Internal Combustion Engine, with a Free Floating Piston... Last edited by Cali-V; 06-13-2008 at 4:36 PM.. |
#257
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I agree the trust is easy... I love the simplicity of using a trust. But how would a transfer to a LLC or Corp take place here in California... Of the three, if formed correctly the LLC or Corp structure may have benefits which a trust may not offer...
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oh this... It's a Single Cylinder - Single Stroke,
Internal Combustion Engine, with a Free Floating Piston... Last edited by Cali-V; 06-13-2008 at 4:38 PM.. |
#258
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#259
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But, I was informed, that they are pump action, they shoot shotgun shells, the barrel is over 18", and the OAL is over I think 28".... so it's a CA legal shotgun... I think CZ makes something similar, it has a really scary standoff device... They both were all day $300.00+ fees...
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oh this... It's a Single Cylinder - Single Stroke,
Internal Combustion Engine, with a Free Floating Piston... |
#260
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What is the definition of "shotgun" that CA uses? If it is this one then you may be onto something:
http://www.emsa.cahwnet.gov/emsdivision/firearm_def.asp "SHOTGUN A firearm intended to fire from the shoulder that uses a shotgun shell to propel one or more projectiles through a long barrel with a smooth bore. It may have one or more barrels. " I don't know if the Saiga-12 uses a standard AK flat, but if so, this might work: buy a demilled Saiga-12 kit, build one up from a flat with 18"+ barrel, AOW it with a 16.1" barrel, dual pistol grips, and have it take a detachable magazine. Right? Last edited by vandal; 06-13-2008 at 6:43 PM.. Reason: Corrected per GuyW's suggestion |
#261
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#262
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Ah, yes. There is not a CA "AOW" definition so I don't like to use that term lest it be confused with the federal definition, but you're right -- what I was describing was not a pistol (>16"bbl), not a rifle (not a rifled bore), not a shotgun (not designed to be fired from the shoulder). And actually since it is starting with >16" barrel it would not need to be configured as single-shot to begin with (I think.)
Last edited by vandal; 06-13-2008 at 6:42 PM.. |
#263
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Mossberg has a couple models out there. The 500 JICs and Cruisers. And Remington has one 870 model out there with the PG, model #24823.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#264
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I still think you will run into AW snags. Yes, if built on a flat, it would not be a "shotgun" since it never had a stock, so it would not need to comply with the shotgun AW rules. But, I think it would be considered a pistol in CA as soon as the barrel went under 16", and at that point you have to comply with the pistol AW rules. And that means no detachable mag.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#265
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#266
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#267
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Hey guys,
Sorry I have read through most of the pages but still am slightly confused. Ok from what I have have read if my friend has a C&R FFL and he buys a C&R M1 carbine, then we do a PPT to myself. OK now that I own it I set up a trust and transfer the rifle to my trust and send the paperwork into ATF for a SBR. When that is approved we take it to a gunsmith and get it shortened and I am good to go? Is that right? Thanks guys. Trevor |
#268
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IMHO you would have to go fixed-mag on the M1 carbine. Per CA definition, anything with under 16" of barrel is a pistol.
"12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length. " also 12001.(f): Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020. So it can be both a SBR/SBS AND a pistol. If it is a pistol you run afoul of: 12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following: ... (4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer. (B) A second handgrip. (C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel. [M1: Yep] (D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip. [M1: Yep] I just don't see any way around it. |
#269
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#270
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OK thanks for the answers. Obviously it is easy enough for me to get my C&R license to purchase it myself. So any better specific examples of C&R rifles that we could SBR in california? I will have to try to read through some more pages to figure out the AOW stuff.
Thanks again I am very interested in this idea. Trevor |
#271
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#272
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Is a Knights masterkey a ca legal AOW?
no grip, no stock How would it work if you put a knights masterkey on a reg'd AW? Edit: Just found it, its a short barrel shotgun. Too bad. .
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WTB: SWISS & German police trade in pistols WTB: German made & proofed SIG P226R & P228R WTB: Factory cutaway pistols & rifles WTB: LAPD Ithaca M37 / CHP S&W / Other PD trade ins.... Last edited by ptoguy2002; 06-18-2008 at 2:58 PM.. |
#273
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The common thought in the NFA community is that once you hang an AOW masterkey under a rifle, it becomes an SBS due to the rifle stock. I believe that the masterkeys are sold as SBS's for that exact reason.
So, that just means you need to get a C&R 870 Once you have a legal SBS, I don't think there are any legal reasons why you couldn't attach it to a reg'd AW. I'm not even sure if it would be a problem hanging one under an OLL. But in the end, the common feeling is that the masterkey setup is a waste of time and not worth it for use in a real CQB arena. But, we aren't concerned with that, its all about tacticool, and I think a masterkey definitely qualifies.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#274
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Probably true about a waste of time, but its all (anything you can get in california) a waste of time and not practical anyway. Its fun though. So if I find a C&R 870, thats ok, and since the masterkeys are basically 870s anyway, I could probably do something??? **Have you found an NFA dealer in cali willing to do an NFA transfer yet?
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WTB: SWISS & German police trade in pistols WTB: German made & proofed SIG P226R & P228R WTB: Factory cutaway pistols & rifles WTB: LAPD Ithaca M37 / CHP S&W / Other PD trade ins.... |
#275
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Yup, you should be able to with a C&R 870 SBS. The issue becomes finding a mount for the 870. There are apparently a couple designs out there that go in an out of production.
Just make sure that whatever mount you use does not let the rear of the 870 come in contact with the front of the mag well under recoil. Bad Things can happen if that occurs. Theres also a mount that hangs off the front takedown pin that transfers the SBS recoil into the lower receiver and may cause problems. As for CA NFA dealers willing to do work with us, haven't found anybody except for M24 up in NorCal. I still need to talk to my local guy but since I'm not ready to spend more money, I've put it off. Don't want to look like one of those looky-loos. There is one other possibility that I just realized, an FFL doesn't have to be an SOT to transfer an NFA firearm. Any FFL can do the transfer, they just don't get FFL-to-FFL transfers tax free. Now, for an SBS, that adds a second $200 tax that makes it unfeasable, but for an AOW, its just an extra $5 tax stamp. That might be doable and would open up the dealer search to any FFL willing.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#276
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Not to get too far off track... but the above would be a little more functional and slightly more interesting mounted on a pistol based AR AOW...
Not sure if it could be done here in CA... But it would be exceedingly tacticool...
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oh this... It's a Single Cylinder - Single Stroke,
Internal Combustion Engine, with a Free Floating Piston... |
#277
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that exact combo has been mentioned as a way to be able to mount an AOW under an AR. By hanging the AOW under a pistol, there is no shoulder stock to turn the AOW into an SBS.
Now, would the AR need to be an AOW, or would a "regular" AR pistol be enough (fixed mag for CA)? That would take some thought to figure out all the legalities.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#279
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Found three M37s on the first page of the search I did.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=102656657 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=102150774 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=102160252 As for 870s, they are harder to locate since there is only 7 years of C&Rs out there. YOu'd need to to look at the pictures/text for serial number or email the seller what serial number it was. 572,000 is the cut-off for 1957 870s. Ithacas cut off at 704,000 for 1957 M37s. As a price point, I paid under $200 shipped for my 37, and got a couple 870s for $280 & $320 shipped.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Last edited by ke6guj; 06-18-2008 at 4:22 PM.. |
#280
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Sweet man, my gunbroker-fu is weak. Was searching in the wrong spot. Now I just need to wait for this C&R to slowly get here. Has anyone done a side by side and cleaned up the stock to only a pistol grip? I think that will have to be my next project. |
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