Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > SPECIALTY FORUMS > FFL's Forum
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:49 PM
lanzador49 lanzador49 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 53
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default Interstate / Intrafamiliar Off Roster Question

I have tried to decipher the various threads on topic, but have some follow up questions if someone might indulge me.

Son is resident out of California; father California resident. Son purchases handgun that is not on California roster and wants to give it as a gift to father in California.

My understanding is that the transfer must be done through an FFL in California. Correct?

I also understand that the transfer is exempt from California roster. Correct?

I also understand that firearm still subject to 10 day wait, and 1 in 30 rule. Correct?

Question 1: can son legally enter California with the off roster handgun?

2: Can son then just give it to dad? Or must the gun be brought by son to California FFL for the transfer?

3: How about if son is not in California, and dad is visiting son out of state...can dad come back with it and do the Report of Operation of Law Transfer? (my inclination here is that, since it's interstate, the firearm must be sent or brought to the FFL by the out of state son first).

Thank you. Any other input would be appreciated.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-10-2018, 1:04 AM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 37,270
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lanzador49 View Post
I have tried to decipher the various threads on topic, but have some follow up questions if someone might indulge me.

Son is resident out of California; father California resident. Son purchases handgun that is not on California roster and wants to give it as a gift to father in California.

My understanding is that the transfer must be done through an FFL in California. Correct?

I also understand that the transfer is exempt from California roster. Correct?

I also understand that firearm still subject to 10 day wait, and 1 in 30 rule. Correct?

Question 1: can son legally enter California with the off roster handgun?

2: Can son then just give it to dad? Or must the gun be brought by son to California FFL for the transfer?

3: How about if son is not in California, and dad is visiting son out of state...can dad come back with it and do the Report of Operation of Law Transfer? (my inclination here is that, since it's interstate, the firearm must be sent or brought to the FFL by the out of state son first).

Thank you. Any other input would be appreciated.
1: yes

2: NO, cannot just give - federal law requires the transfer between resident of different states must use an FFL, and in the case of handguns, that FFL must be in the state of residence of the person who receives the gun.

3: NO - different part of Federal law makes it illegal to bring guns from out of state 'without benefit of FFL' if there's a transfer involved.

See the sticky - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=503873
__________________
[Carol Ann voice]The Legislature is baaa-ack .... [/Carol Ann voice]

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-10-2018, 3:01 AM
lanzador49 lanzador49 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 53
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Thank you. Read that other thread - looks like you've encountered all the possible hypotheticals...

So, son (non-California resident) can either (a) send the handgun to an FFL in California, or (b) bring it and walk in to an FFL in California, to do the transfer to father (California resident)...subject to 10 day wait and 1 in 30.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-10-2018, 7:14 AM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 9,414
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

I have heard, but not confirmed, that it is exempt from the 1 in 30. Someone (not just a random person) mentioned that in another thread.

As said, it has to go through a CA FFL.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-10-2018, 8:42 AM
shootsocal_dave's Avatar
shootsocal_dave shootsocal_dave is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Orange County
Posts: 360
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I did a 15+ gun Intrafamilar transfer and called the DOJ, they told me to use exempt handgun, and check the 1/30 exempt button because its a family transfer it does not count as a purchase.
__________________
shootsocal.com
CA FFL
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-10-2018, 8:53 AM
BONECUTTER BONECUTTER is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 1,689
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
I have heard, but not confirmed, that it is exempt from the 1 in 30. Someone (not just a random person) mentioned that in another thread.

As said, it has to go through a CA FFL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
I did a 15+ gun Intrafamilar transfer and called the DOJ, they told me to use exempt handgun, and check the 1/30 exempt button because its a family transfer it does not count as a purchase.
I have never seen a family transfer exemption to the 1 in 30.

The PC outlines the only exemptions:
Quote:
12072 (9)(A)No person shall make an application to purchase more than one handgun within any 30-day period.

(A) shall not apply to any of the following:

(i)Any law enforcement agency.

(ii)Any agency duly authorized to perform law enforcement duties.

(iii)Any state or local correctional facility.

(iv)Any private security company licensed to do business in California.

(v)Any person who is properly identified as a full-time paid peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, and who is authorized to, and does carry a firearm during the course and scope of his or her employment as a peace officer.

(vi)Any motion picture, television, or video production company or entertainment or theatrical company whose production by its nature involves the use of a firearm.

(vii)Any person who may, pursuant to Section 12078, claim an exemption from the waiting period set forth in subdivision (c) of this section.

(viii)Any transaction conducted through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

(ix)Any person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071.

(x)The exchange of a handgun where the dealer purchased that firearm from the person seeking the exchange within the 30-day period immediately preceding the date of exchange or replacement.

(xi)The replacement of a handgun when the personís handgun was lost or stolen, and the person reported that firearm lost or stolen prior to the completion of the application to purchase to any local law enforcement agency of the city, county, or city and county in which he or she resides.

(xii)The return of any handgun to its owner.

(xiii)Community colleges that are certified by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training to present the law enforcement academy basic course or other commission-certified law enforcement training.
VII & VIII are muddy to me, someone with better legaleze can explain but I dont see out of state family transfers listed so it looks like they need to follow the 1 in 30 rules. I went over this with DOJ a few years back and my rep could not find anything saying it was legal to skip the 1 in 30.... A customer was gifted about 8 firearms and had to do one a month.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:13 AM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 37,270
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
I have never seen a family transfer exemption to the 1 in 30.

The PC outlines the only exemptions:


VII & VIII are muddy to me, someone with better legaleze can explain but I dont see out of state family transfers listed so it looks like they need to follow the 1 in 30 rules. I went over this with DOJ a few years back and my rep could not find anything saying it was legal to skip the 1 in 30.... A customer was gifted about 8 firearms and had to do one a month.
That's my reading as well.

If DOJ wants to grant an indulgence now and again, I guess that's OK, but ordinarily we complain about folks just making their own laws without the legislature.

(And, 12072 is gone, since 2012. The part you quote is now PC 27535, with more exceptions at 26950 and following)
__________________
[Carol Ann voice]The Legislature is baaa-ack .... [/Carol Ann voice]

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:25 AM
BONECUTTER BONECUTTER is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 1,689
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
That's my reading as well.

If DOJ wants to grant an indulgence now and again, I guess that's OK, but ordinarily we complain about folks just making their own laws without the legislature.

(And, 12072 is gone, since 2012. The part you quote is now PC 27535, with more exceptions at 26950 and following)
Thanks for the updated PC...Since the re-numbing all my bookmarks are worthless.
I won't do anything outside of the PC unless my current Rep puts it in writing...cause .. you know.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:31 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 9,414
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

I just checked and was told that interstate intrafamilial transfers are exempt from the 1 in 30. The FSC exemption to use is X02 (although they still need a FSC) and mark the comment that it is an intrafamilial transfer. You also need to retain documentation, including a copy of the ID of who it is coming from, to confirm it is really from them.

As to the CA PC, it would take some time to see if it works that way. You would have to check to see where it talks about the intrafamilial transfer and how that relates to the DROS process.

You can choose to ignore, confirm or something else with regards to this. YMMV.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-12-2018, 8:17 AM
shootsocal_dave's Avatar
shootsocal_dave shootsocal_dave is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Orange County
Posts: 360
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

intrastate intrafamilar transfers are "kind of new". I say that becuase I think the DOJ wrote itself in a corner and never actually made a exemption for these transfers, and realized they should have. So it seems they are making it work.
__________________
shootsocal.com
CA FFL
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-12-2018, 4:55 PM
lanzador49 lanzador49 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 53
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

The person who is the subject of this hypothetical (!!!) received the item and the FFL that person used (Sacramento Gun Club) said that the 1:30 rule ABSOLUTELY applies. No exceptions except the specific ones listed...just fyi. Pretty nice gun, too....! The person received a Sig p320 Compact (sans magazines, of course). The person can get it in 10 days.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-15-2018, 8:38 AM
painkiller painkiller is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 349
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

Clear as mud here.i always thought intrafamiliar transfers exempted the 1/30 like kamesa said
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-15-2018, 1:04 PM
lanzador49 lanzador49 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 53
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Mud? Cement.

Here's my conclusion and understanding (from within the cement)(librarian...please offer corrections...)

1. A linear family member (grandfather - father - son... as opposed to lateral family member such as cousins, aunts, uncles...) may gift an off roster handgun to a California resident BUT IT MUST BE DONE THROUGH AN FFL.

2. Either the out of state party has the firearm sent to a California FFL, or brings it personally to the California FFL, for the transfer. The recipient in California can't just bring it in on his own; the out of state owner must be present to prove they are out of state at the FFL.

3. The out of state person can send it himself or herself, but it depends on the FFL in California as to whether they will receive a gun from a private party or whether they only accept from another FFL from out of state. Also - there is a question as to whether a non-licensed person can walk into FedEx or UPS or USPS and ship a firearm on their own.

4. There is a 10-Day waiting period.

5. The transaction is subject to the 1:30 rule (Penal Code Section 27535)

6. The Giftor must include a LETTER OF GIFT stating that they are over 21, giving it to someone over 21, they are out of state, they are the legal owner of the firearm, and that no consideration was paid by the California recipient for the gift. Some FFL's require that the letter be NOTARIZED. The letter must include a copy of BOTH SIDES of the out of state Driver's license; the letter must include identifying information for the firearm (brand, model, caliber, serial number).

I'm sure that there are other issues - i.e., if both giftor an giftee are California residents, they can simply send in the DOJ form with a $19 fee, but that is a different issue (Penal Code Section 27875, exemptions from using a dealer for private party transactions). The analysis above would apply to INTRAFAMILY and INTERSTATE transactions.

Yeah - clear as cement.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 9:28 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.