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  #1  
Old 05-11-2018, 8:21 PM
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Old 05-11-2018, 9:28 PM
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the baptismal waterboarding is rather entertaining.



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Old 05-11-2018, 10:34 PM
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Very sad! Infant Baptism has no meaning for them. If anyone is being baptized they must be able to acknowledge their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
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Old 05-12-2018, 8:11 AM
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Very sad! Infant Baptism has no meaning for them. If anyone is being baptized they must be able to acknowledge their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Amen to that!
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Old 05-12-2018, 9:12 AM
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So Lydia and her whole household were wrong? On the other hand, there is no scripture stating they had to be old enough to acknowledge anything.
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Old 05-12-2018, 9:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
there is no scripture stating they had to be old enough to acknowledge anything.
Acts 8:37

Romans 10:9


also Acts 8:38 states they both went down "into" the water. Acts 8:39 and when they both came up out of the water.
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Old 05-12-2018, 9:41 AM
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Doesn't say anything about acknowledging anything. It says he wanted to get baptized and did.
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Old 05-12-2018, 9:47 AM
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Doesn't say anything about acknowledging anything. It says he wanted to get baptized and did.
"And he answered and said I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God"

Seems to me he acknowledged something, no?

Acts 8:37 Philip said to him if thou believest with all thine heart thou mayest (speaking of the eunuch asking to being Baptized)

Philip asked him that after preaching the gospel of Jesus earlier in Acts, 8:35

He has to acknowledge something before being allowed to be baptized.

Acts 8:36 the eunuch asked what doth hinder me to be baptized, He has to acknowledge that he believes after hearing the scripture of Jesus, that Jesus is the son of God.
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:36 AM
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I'm more than willing to allow you your point. Still, there are no scriptures about "old enough".
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:37 AM
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So Lydia and her whole household were wrong?
Speaking of Lydia,
Acts 16:14 she attended unto the things that were spoken of Paul.

Speaking of Paul,
Acts 9:20 and straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, That he was the son of God.
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:39 AM
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I'm more than willing to allow you your point. Still, there are no scriptures about "old enough".
Fair enough,

If an infant ever speaks a coherent sentence let me know first

Also on a side note: I've seen members bash each other here and that's not what it's about, I don't like that.
Just friendly scripture reading to one another is what I like.
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:42 AM
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Fair enough,

If an infant ever speaks a coherent sentence let me know first
No prob. Though I don't know what infants have to do with this. I never mentioned them.
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:52 AM
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No prob. Though I don't know what infants have to do with this. I never mentioned them.
True,
Old enough to acknowledge Christ is the son of God and hear the scripture, and understand it is what I was implying.
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Old 05-12-2018, 11:51 AM
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True,
Old enough to acknowledge Christ is the son of God and hear the scripture, and understand it is what I was implying.
Ok.
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Old 05-13-2018, 5:57 PM
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13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
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Old 05-17-2018, 9:04 AM
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That is how I baptize my donuts (Dunk, pour, sprinkle). It works - they are holy.
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Old 06-01-2018, 8:05 AM
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Roughly, as best as I know from the Catholic and Orthodox perspective, and it’s an old one...
Baptism is a Grace. Households were baptized in their entirety which included babies. Baptism as Sacrament, was the New Covenant which effectively replaces the Old Covenant of Circumcision which was performed on the 8th day after birth. Baptism (like circumcision)was historically performed on infants because they deserve God’s Grace and even though they cannot repent, for they do not sin, they are cleansed of Original Sin and can now be guided by the Holy Spirit and grown in Faith.

Baptism is also one of the even sacraments as the first Rite of Exorcism, wherein the Holy Spirit fills the initiate into Christ’s Family.

God chooses us long before before we are able to intellectually choose Him. And He chooses ALL of us. And since parents are responsible for the spiritual welfare of their children, they are are responsible for bringing their children to the Lord via baptism in the covenant to raise the children as Christians.

Baptism isn’t just a symbolic initiation.
Baptism is a Spiritual and Supernatural Covenant with God (not just a spiritually emotional one), and babies who do not have the intellectual capacity to choose to have Faith, DESERVE the Grace of the Holy Spirit as soon as possible.


That said, I don’t know that dunking a baby is deadly, but I’ve never heard of any problems or anything before so I guess it’s acceptable...personally and from what I’ve ever witnessed, the priest just pours water over the babies’ heads...maybe that dunking is a cultural thing...but it’s far less painful than a circumcision that’s for sure!

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Old 06-01-2018, 8:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Burble74 View Post
Roughly, as best as I know from the Catholic and Orthodox perspective, and it’s an old one...
Baptism is a Grace. Households were baptized in their entirety which included babies. Baptism as Sacrament, was the New Covenant which effectively replaces the Old Covenant of Circumcision which was performed on the 8th day after birth. Baptism (like circumcision)was historically performed on infants because they deserve God’s Grace and even though they cannot repent, for they do not sin, they are cleansed of Original Sin and can now be guided by the Holy Spirit and grown in Faith.

Baptism is also one of the even sacraments as the first Rite of Exorcism, wherein the Holy Spirit fills the initiate into Christ’s Family.

God chooses us long before before we are able to intellectually choose Him. And He chooses ALL of us. And since parents are responsible for the spiritual welfare of their children, they are are responsible for bringing their children to the Lord via baptism in the covenant to raise the children as Christians.

Baptism isn’t just a symbolic initiation.
Baptism is a Spiritual and Supernatural Covenant with God (not just a spiritually emotional one), and babies who do not have the intellectual capacity to choose to have Faith, DESERVE the Grace of the Holy Spirit as soon as possible.


That said, I don’t know that dunking a baby is deadly, but I’ve never heard of any problems or anything before so I guess it’s acceptable...personally and from what I’ve ever witnessed, the priest just pours water over the babies’ heads...maybe that dunking is a cultural thing...but it’s far less painful than a circumcision that’s for sure!
Sorry, but that's not the Biblical view, the Christian view. Yes, it's the RCC view, but that's man's view, not God's.

Biblical view:
1. Baptism is ONLY for those who have put their faith in Christ, not babies.
2. Baptism does not save, does not infuse grace. It is a response for what God has done through Christ already. It's a testimony of the salvation we've already received.

"Baptism" is an unfortunate choice by the King James translators. It is merely a transliteration (sound-a-like) word from the Greek word "baptizdo." It really means "immersion" and like all other words has different meanings depending on the context. To be "immersed in a book" is different than to be "immersed in water." Immersion can be in Christ (1 Peter 3:18-21), can be spiritual (i.e. spiritual baptism per 1 Cor 12), and can mean in water (Acts examples). Context, context, context.

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Old 06-01-2018, 9:35 AM
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Sorry, but that's not the Biblical view, the Christian view. Yes, it's the RCC view, but that's man's view, not God's.

Biblical view:
1. Baptism is ONLY for those who have put their faith in Christ, not babies.
2. Baptism does not save, does not infuse grace. It is a response for what God has done through Christ already. It's a testimony of the salvation we've already received.

"Baptism" is an unfortunate choice by the King James translators. It is merely a transliteration (sound-a-like) word from the Greek word "baptizdo." It really means "immersion" and like all other words has different meanings depending on the context. To be "immersed in a book" is different than to be "immersed in water." Immersion can be in Christ (1 Peter 3:18-21), can be spiritual (i.e. spiritual baptism per 1 Cor 12), and can mean in water (Acts examples). Context, context, context.

God bless,
It is the biblical view.
IntrestIng how in one breath the biblical view is Christian, but in the same breath a catholic universal Christian Church view is not “Christian” I especially since the Bible was traditionally passed down and finally compiled into a book while still the Catholic Church...the first Christian Church, before the reformation if you know your objective history.

As you know the Bible was compiled in the Church long before the Reformation.
Even even Marrtin Luther knew this and he did not contest the practice.
The King James Version was changed from the original because it had to fit the Protestant view since that is the only thing Martin Luther took with him when he left the Church, therefore he did not have the benefit of the Tradition and the History which contributed to the compilation of the Bible

It does not state in scripture that you must be of age.

Im not an apologist, so I can’t explain it as well as others who are more knowledgeable.
Take a look a this article:

“Evangelical Protestants say that infants are not fit candidates for baptism because they are unable to manifest a desire to “accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior.” Baptism, they say, is not regenerative—it does not do anything to the soul but is only a public sign to other Christians that the new believer believes.

In contrast, the Catholic Church (like the Eastern churches and “mainline” Protestant churches) always has taught that baptism forgives sins, infuses grace, and marks one’s entrance into the Faith, and baptism can be conferred on infants validly.

Our Lord said that only the baptized can enter heaven (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of having a right to his kingdom. He asserted such a right for children: “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 19:14). If heaven belongs to children, they must be able to be baptized. Evangelicals say this applies only to older children, those capable of “making a decision for Jesus,” not to infants. But Luke 18:15 says, “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them.” The context here and in Matthew 19 does not suggest that our Lord limited his remarks to children over the age of reason (approximately seven years of age).

Besides, we need to consider the place of baptism in the New Covenant. It replaced the circumcision of the Old Covenant (Col. 2:11-12). It was infants mainly who were circumcised (Gen. 17:12), which suggests that baptism must be able to be administered to infants. What is more, nowhere does Scripture say that baptism is to be restricted to adults. If that were the case, one might expect to find, if not a clear-cut proscription, at least accounts of baptisms in which young children were set apart and refused the sacrament.

On the other hand, one must admit the New Testament does not recount explicitly the baptism of infants or young children. But there are hints.

Lydia, identified as “a seller of purple goods” and “a worshiper of God,” is reported to have given “heed to what was said by Paul. And when she was baptized, with her household” (Acts 16:14-15).



A few verses later comes the story of the imprisonment of Paul and Silas. After their miraculous release, their jailer asked them, “What must I do to be saved?” “And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house . . . and he was baptized at once, with all his family” (Acts 16:30-33).

In his introductory remarks to the Corinthians, Paul remarked, “I did baptize also the household of Stephanas” (1 Cor. 1:16). In this and the other two instances entire families or households were baptized. Presumably these included children. If Paul had baptized only the adult members of the families, we would have expected the accounts to note, for instance, that Lydia “and her husband” were baptized, or the jailer “and his wife,” or Stephanas “and his brother,” or some such words. The terms “family” and “household” implied then, as they do today, at least two generations. If children indeed were included in these multiple baptisms, and if the youngest children were excluded because of intellectual incapacity, why no mention of that?

Granted, these verses do not form an indisputable argument, but their implication supports infant baptism.

Likewise with all we know from early Christian history. Origen, writing in the third century, remarked, “The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism also to infants” (Commentary on Romans). John Chrysostom remarked, “For this reason we baptize even infants, though they do not have sins: so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his members” (Catechesis to the Illuminated).

In A.D. 252, a council at Carthage in North Africa condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld until the eighth day after birth (the customary time at which circumcision had taken place under the Abrahamic covenant). The council was not settling a dispute about whether infants should be baptized but when: following the old custom or as soon as possible?

It was not until the Middle Ages that some groups, such as the Waldenses and Catharists, began to reject infant baptism. Later, the Anabaptists (“rebaptizers”) echoed them in saying that infants are incapable of being baptized validly. But all this was foreign to the first millennium of Christianity.

The Evangelical position against infant baptism is not a consequence of the Bible’s strictures but of the logic of Evangelicalism’s notion of salvation. To be saved, one must “accept Christ” in a positive and explicit manner. Infants and young children are incapable of making such an “acceptance,” and thus they are excluded from baptism. On Evangelicalism’s terms this makes sense—but it makes no sense on scriptural or historical terms.”


Especially since salvation is from God’s Grace not our ability to have Faith...otherwise only the most faithful are saved, but the prodigal Son was not the most faithful of sons, and he was not even sorry, but sorry he failed that he returned, and yet he was saved

Or watch this-
it might challenge your views about the Catholic Church...whatever they may be
https://youtu.be/jV2dMB4Sofg

Last edited by Burble74; 06-01-2018 at 10:11 AM..
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Old 06-01-2018, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Burble74 View Post
It is the biblical view.
IntrestIng how in one breath the biblical view is Christian, but in the same breath a catholic universal Christian Church view is not “Christian” I especially since the Bible was traditionally passed down and finally compiled into a book while still the Catholic Church...the first Christian Church, before the reformation if you know your objective history.
There have been other threads on this, but no, the Catholic church is not Christian, it's just "Catholics." The term Christian is defined in the Bible and the biblical definition of salvation is NOT the RCC definition. In fact, the RCC proves this by calling Christians "anathema" for believing the biblical definition of salvation (Go read the Council of Trent canons - they are your doctrine.).

No, the Bible didn't not get compiled into one book by the RCC. Most of the Bible is the Old Testament and it was in place long before the time of Christ. Every book of the New Testament became the authoritative word of God the moment the author's pen finished it. Notice how the authors of the NT write directly to those churches by the authority of Christ? The Holy Spirit compiled the books of the New Testament and they were recognized as such LONG before the councils acknowledged what the Holy Spirit had done and Christians were already using. The RCC came along centuries later and added books that are not inspired. Just historical works of men... I never mentioned the Reformation - why do you? Just go back to when the books (mostly letters) were written. If you need good references for excellent books on the Canonicity of Scripture I've got several in my library I can refer you to.

Quote:
As you know the Bible was compiled in the Church long before the Reformation.
Even even Marrtin Luther knew this and he did not contest the practice.
The King James Version was changed from the original because it had to fit the Protestant view since that is the only thing Martin Luther took with him when he left the Church, therefore he did not have the benefit of the Tradition and the History which contributed to the compilation of the Bible.
Again - who said anything about the Reformation? Not me. If I want the Word of God, I read the Bible, not the Reformers. No, the KJV was not changed from the original. It's actually based on a more historically valid Greek text than the Catholic Bible. Do you know your Greek texts?

Quote:
It does not state in scripture that you must be of age.
I never said anything about age. I said those who put their faith in Christ. Babies can't do that.

Quote:
Im not an apologist, so I can’t explain it as well as others who are more knowledgeable.
Take a look a this article:

“Evangelical Protestants say that infants are not fit candidates for baptism because they are unable to manifest a desire to “accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior.” Baptism, they say, is not regenerative—it does not do anything to the soul but is only a public sign to other Christians that the new believer believes.

In contrast, the Catholic Church (like the Eastern churches and “mainline” Protestant churches) always has taught that baptism forgives sins, infuses grace, and marks one’s entrance into the Faith, and baptism can be conferred on infants validly.

Our Lord said that only the baptized can enter heaven (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of having a right to his kingdom. He asserted such a right for children: “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 19:14). If heaven belongs to children, they must be able to be baptized. Evangelicals say this applies only to older children, those capable of “making a decision for Jesus,” not to infants. But Luke 18:15 says, “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them.” The context here and in Matthew 19 does not suggest that our Lord limited his remarks to children over the age of reason (approximately seven years of age).

Besides, we need to consider the place of baptism in the New Covenant. It replaced the circumcision of the Old Covenant (Col. 2:11-12). It was infants mainly who were circumcised (Gen. 17:12), which suggests that baptism must be able to be administered to infants. What is more, nowhere does Scripture say that baptism is to be restricted to adults. If that were the case, one might expect to find, if not a clear-cut proscription, at least accounts of baptisms in which young children were set apart and refused the sacrament.

On the other hand, one must admit the New Testament does not recount explicitly the baptism of infants or young children. But there are hints.

Lydia, identified as “a seller of purple goods” and “a worshiper of God,” is reported to have given “heed to what was said by Paul. And when she was baptized, with her household” (Acts 16:14-15).



A few verses later comes the story of the imprisonment of Paul and Silas. After their miraculous release, their jailer asked them, “What must I do to be saved?” “And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house . . . and he was baptized at once, with all his family” (Acts 16:30-33).

In his introductory remarks to the Corinthians, Paul remarked, “I did baptize also the household of Stephanas” (1 Cor. 1:16). In this and the other two instances entire families or households were baptized. Presumably these included children. If Paul had baptized only the adult members of the families, we would have expected the accounts to note, for instance, that Lydia “and her husband” were baptized, or the jailer “and his wife,” or Stephanas “and his brother,” or some such words. The terms “family” and “household” implied then, as they do today, at least two generations. If children indeed were included in these multiple baptisms, and if the youngest children were excluded because of intellectual incapacity, why no mention of that?

Granted, these verses do not form an indisputable argument, but their implication supports infant baptism.

Likewise with all we know from early Christian history. Origen, writing in the third century, remarked, “The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism also to infants” (Commentary on Romans). John Chrysostom remarked, “For this reason we baptize even infants, though they do not have sins: so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his members” (Catechesis to the Illuminated).

In A.D. 252, a council at Carthage in North Africa condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld until the eighth day after birth (the customary time at which circumcision had taken place under the Abrahamic covenant). The council was not settling a dispute about whether infants should be baptized but when: following the old custom or as soon as possible?

It was not until the Middle Ages that some groups, such as the Waldenses and Catharists, began to reject infant baptism. Later, the Anabaptists (“rebaptizers”) echoed them in saying that infants are incapable of being baptized validly. But all this was foreign to the first millennium of Christianity.

The Evangelical position against infant baptism is not a consequence of the Bible’s strictures but of the logic of Evangelicalism’s notion of salvation. To be saved, one must “accept Christ” in a positive and explicit manner. Infants and young children are incapable of making such an “acceptance,” and thus they are excluded from baptism. On Evangelicalism’s terms this makes sense—but it makes no sense on scriptural or historical terms.”


Especially since salvation is from God’s Grace not our ability to have Faith...otherwise only the most faithful are saved, but the prodigal Son was not the most faithful of sons, and he was not even sorry, but sorry he failed that he returned, and yet he was saved

Or watch this-
it might challenge your views about the Catholic Church...whatever they may be
https://youtu.be/jV2dMB4Sofg
Since you didn't write that, I won't take it apart and show all the places it is wrong. Please only post what you know and can defend.

But, I do always smile when someone argues that baptism replaces circumcision of the Old Testament. Poor females of the world can never be baptized because they were never circumcised. There goes half the population.

Remember, according to your church, I, and all Christians, are anathema. Yet, we believe the Word of God - from God, Himself - on how He wants us to come to Him for eternal salvation.

God bless,
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“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther
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Old 06-01-2018, 1:44 PM
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Originally Posted by billvau View Post
There have been other threads on this, but no, the Catholic church is not Christian, it's just "Catholics." The term Christian is defined in the Bible and the biblical definition of salvation is NOT the RCC definition. In fact, the RCC proves this by calling Christians "anathema" for believing the biblical definition of salvation (Go read the Council of Trent canons - they are your doctrine.).

No, the Bible didn't not get compiled into one book by the RCC. Most of the Bible is the Old Testament and it was in place long before the time of Christ. Every book of the New Testament became the authoritative word of God the moment the author's pen finished it. Notice how the authors of the NT write directly to those churches by the authority of Christ? The Holy Spirit compiled the books of the New Testament and they were recognized as such LONG before the councils acknowledged what the Holy Spirit had done and Christians were already using. The RCC came along centuries later and added books that are not inspired. Just historical works of men... I never mentioned the Reformation - why do you? Just go back to when the books (mostly letters) were written. If you need good references for excellent books on the Canonicity of Scripture I've got several in my library I can refer you to.



Again - who said anything about the Reformation? Not me. If I want the Word of God, I read the Bible, not the Reformers. No, the KJV was not changed from the original. It's actually based on a more historically valid Greek text than the Catholic Bible. Do you know your Greek texts?



I never said anything about age. I said those who put their faith in Christ. Babies can't do that.



Since you didn't write that, I won't take it apart and show all the places it is wrong. Please only post what you know and can defend.

But, I do always smile when someone argues that baptism replaces circumcision of the Old Testament. Poor females of the world can never be baptized because they were never circumcised. There goes half the population.

Remember, according to your church, I, and all Christians, are anathema. Yet, we believe the Word of God - from God, Himself - on how He wants us to come to Him for eternal salvation.

God bless,
Interesting you say that, cuz catholic females are baptized every day.
We Catholics Christians believe that everyone is worthy of heaven, even if babies do not have the ability to reason....they deserve heaven because they were also saved, and through baptism cleansed of orifgnal sin.

Does that mean a severely retarded person who has the mentality of an infant cannot be baptized because he cannot reason to have Faith?


Interesting also that you generally believe that salvataion is not earned Yet you have to have faith BEFORE getting baptized. The article said it better than I could but I’ve known much of it because it’s what I knew growing up in the church.
If anyone else misunderstands the teaching of the church. They can simply go to Catholic.com and find out for themselves.

If I am not a Christian, that’s news to me...

Since I believe in One God, the Father, the almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ His only son our lord who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the. Irvin Mary, suffered under pointius piltae, was. Rucified died and was buried, descended into Hell (hades) on the third day rose again from the dead, He ascended into Heaven and seated at the right hand of god the father , ....by golly I’m a Christian and anyone who says otherwise should do their own research into the early church...read the church fathers....
..

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Old 06-01-2018, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Burble74 View Post
Interesting you say that, cuz catholic females are baptized every day.
We Catholics Christians believe that everyone is worthy of heaven, even if babies do not have the ability to reason....they deserve heaven because they were also saved, and through baptism cleansed of orifgnal sin.

Does that mean a severely retarded person who has the mentality of an infant cannot be baptized because he cannot reason to have Faith?


Interesting also that you generally believe that salvataion is not earned Yet you have to have faith BEFORE getting baptized. The article said it better than I could but I’ve known much of it because it’s what I knew growing up in the church.
If anyone else misunderstands the teaching of the church. They can simply go to Catholic.com and find out for themselves.

If I am not a Christian, that’s news to me...

Since I believe in One God, the Father, the almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ His only son our lord who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the. Irvin Mary, suffered under pointius piltae, was. Rucified died and was buried, descended into Hell (hades) on the third day rose again from the dead, He ascended into Heaven and seated at the right hand of god the father , ....by golly I’m a Christian and anyone who says otherwise should do their own research into the early church...read the church fathers....
..
Of course females are baptized too. I was just pointing out the absurdity of that argument because circumcision was only for boys in the OT.

The belief that everyone is "worthy" of heaven is definitely not biblical. God says no one is worthy of heaven - all have sinned and fall short of the glory God (Rom 3:23; 6:23) and will die eternal death (hell) apart from salvation in Christ. And, biblically, baptism cleanses no one, saves no one.

Infants who die, the severe mentally-handicapped, etc. get instant heaven. See David in 2 Samuel 12:23 for an example. Would take a whole book to answer this one.

Read Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Faith is the means by which we respond to the gospel "through faith." It is a gift of God because we are all dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1-3) and cannot respond to anything of God (Read Romans 3:10-19 - ALL have turned aside, etc.).

I was born and raised Catholic. I was saved out of Catholicism into Christianity. I once believed that my baptism as a baby infused me with the grace and faith to believe to get into heaven. I had to do good works to earn my salvation. I could lose my salvation too. BUT, I then was told the biblical gospel of salvation - no works, no baptism, but the need to acknowledge that I was a sinner deserving and destined to hell - with no way to be good enough to earn heaven. The only way was to tell the Lord Jesus that I deserved hell but wanted His free gift (Romans 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9) of eternal life (heaven) by letting His death and resurrection be the substitute for the death that I deserve. My life changed instantly. I was a new creature, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and I KNEW from deep inside that I was now headed to heaven.

Yes, Catholics believe that Jesus died for sins as you do. I know the creeds well (they were for the early church, but have no need now). BUT, to also believe that you need baptism to give you the grace and faith to believe that a work of baptism had to be performed on your behalf. God doesn't accept works. Works are paid wages (Read Romans 4! That will convince you of God's view of works!). See, if you add ANYTHING to faith, it's no longer faith and God doesn't accept it. The right belief is everything because God wants you to KNOW that He alone did EVERYTHING for your salvation and you did nothing. That's why it's called "grace." = UNDESERVED merit/favor. we deserve death, He gives eternal life as a free gift.

Why do I make a point of differentiating Christianity from Catholicism? I firmly believe that when a Catholic calls themselves a Christian, they never stop to see the fundamental difference in beliefs about how one gets into heaven. I want every Catholic to know that if they believe what the RCC teaches, then they don't believe God's Word - the Bible - on God's expectations of how to get into heaven. I don't want them dying and standing before Christ only to hear, "Depart from Me, I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23).

God bless,
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Old 06-01-2018, 4:27 PM
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My way is right!

No, my way is right! You're wrong!

I'm not wrong, you're not even a real Christian!

Not a real Christian? I'm the original Christian!

... And so it goes for another millennium...

Would be nice if folks could ask good questions of each other to understand WHY they do what they do rather than just signal their respective tribal loyalties.

I used to say that I was attending the "Church of Living Water" when I would skip out to go surf or fish somewhere. At the former, full immersion is required. At the latter, it's mostly just wading with an occasional, accidental dunk.

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Old 06-01-2018, 4:39 PM
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Very sad! Infant Baptism has no meaning for them. If anyone is being baptized they must be able to acknowledge their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
This.
I was dunked... I was 6.
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Old 06-01-2018, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
My way is right!

No, my way is right! You're wrong!

I'm not wrong, you're not even a real Christian!

Not a real Christian? I'm the original Christian!

... And so it goes for another millennium...

Would be nice if folks could ask good questions of each other to understand WHY they do what they do rather than just signal their respective tribal loyalties.
Read these words of Jesus Christ, Himself:

Mt7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

What is Christ saying? There are those who did ALL kinds of religious things - even in Christ's name who WON'T get into heaven! He calls their activities "LAWLESSNESS." How would you explain this "seeming" paradox of great religious activity and yet not getting into heaven? Since you've entered the discussion, how about some help?


No tribal loyalties, but good discussion of differing beliefs and roots of those beliefs. You're the one with the drive-by comments that don't add anything to the discussion.
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Old 06-01-2018, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Of course females are baptized too. I was just pointing out the absurdity of that argument because circumcision was only for boys in the OT.

The belief that everyone is "worthy" of heaven is definitely not biblical. God says no one is worthy of heaven - all have sinned and fall short of the glory God (Rom 3:23; 6:23) and will die eternal death (hell) apart from salvation in Christ. And, biblically, baptism cleanses no one, saves no one.

Infants who die, the severe mentally-handicapped, etc. get instant heaven. See David in 2 Samuel 12:23 for an example. Would take a whole book to answer this one.

Read Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Faith is the means by which we respond to the gospel "through faith." It is a gift of God because we are all dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1-3) and cannot respond to anything of God (Read Romans 3:10-19 - ALL have turned aside, etc.).

I was born and raised Catholic. I was saved out of Catholicism into Christianity. I once believed that my baptism as a baby infused me with the grace and faith to believe to get into heaven. I had to do good works to earn my salvation. I could lose my salvation too. BUT, I then was told the biblical gospel of salvation - no works, no baptism, but the need to acknowledge that I was a sinner deserving and destined to hell - with no way to be good enough to earn heaven. The only way was to tell the Lord Jesus that I deserved hell but wanted His free gift (Romans 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9) of eternal life (heaven) by letting His death and resurrection be the substitute for the death that I deserve. My life changed instantly. I was a new creature, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and I KNEW from deep inside that I was now headed to heaven.

Yes, Catholics believe that Jesus died for sins as you do. I know the creeds well (they were for the early church, but have no need now). BUT, to also believe that you need baptism to give you the grace and faith to believe that a work of baptism had to be performed on your behalf. God doesn't accept works. Works are paid wages (Read Romans 4! That will convince you of God's view of works!). See, if you add ANYTHING to faith, it's no longer faith and God doesn't accept it. The right belief is everything because God wants you to KNOW that He alone did EVERYTHING for your salvation and you did nothing. That's why it's called "grace." = UNDESERVED merit/favor. we deserve death, He gives eternal life as a free gift.

Why do I make a point of differentiating Christianity from Catholicism? I firmly believe that when a Catholic calls themselves a Christian, they never stop to see the fundamental difference in beliefs about how one gets into heaven. I want every Catholic to know that if they believe what the RCC teaches, then they don't believe God's Word - the Bible - on God's expectations of how to get into heaven. I don't want them dying and standing before Christ only to hear, "Depart from Me, I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23).

God bless,
Didn’t mean “worthy” of heaven. By bad. I meant that we were all saved and
As such God doesn’t favor one over another...we are EQUALLY SAVED


THE church DOESNT teach that we are destined for Hell...there is no predestination in the Catholic Church.

Works are the fruit of true Faith, but it isn’t by works...nobody EARNS HEAVEN.
We are obliged to follow Christ.

No I am not perfect even in my explanation, but I need a community to help, a community that is made up of those who Los. A,e before me, the church fathers, saints, my teachers , God above all of course, but for me to say I need only God help, I have to accept that God also works through those whom He puts into our lives.

I am a Christian whether you like it or not. And of one of the oldest faiths, but you don’t have to believe me. Just study the church fathers...or better yet.
Have a listen to Relevant Radio. I’m sure they’d love to hear from you since you are a scholar of the Bible. You can school them right on air since they do not screen callers, and welcome any and all points of view.

I never said good works merited heaven, but as the Bible points out,

faith without good works is like the body without a soul.

What’s the point of saying you believe in God if you don’t want to do God’s work...we would just all be hypocrites...

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Old 06-01-2018, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Burble74 View Post
Didn’t mean “worthy” of heaven. By bad. I meant that we were all saved and
As such God doesn’t favor one over another...we are EQUALLY SAVED


THE church teach that we are destined for Hell...there is no predestination in the Catholic Church.

Works are the fruit of true Faith, but it isn’t by works...nobody EARNS HEAVEN.
We are obliged to follow Christ.

No I am not perfect even in my explanation, but I need a community to help, a community that is made up of those who Los. A,e before me, the church fathers, saints, my teachers , God above all of course, but for me to say I need only God help, I have to accept that God also works through those whom He puts into our lives.

I am a Christian whether you like it or not. And of one of the oldest faiths, but you don’t have to believe me. Just study the church fathers...or better yet.
Have a listen to Relevant Radio. I’m sure they’d love to hear from you since you are a scholar of the Bible. You can school them right on air since they do not screen callers, and welcome any and all points of view.

I never said good works merited heaven, but as the Bible points out,

faith without good works is like the body without a soul.

What’s the point of saying you believe in God if you don’t want to do God’s work...we would just all be hypocrites...
Thanks for your clarifications and explanations! We're probably at a good ending point of this discussion. Thanks for bearing with me.

Please note - I question no individual's salvation. That's between the Lord and you. BUT, church doctrines are published and comparable to the Bible. So, as part of God's expectation that I share the gospel, I am also required to point out those churches whose doctrine differs from God's way. As I said, I really don't want to see anyone told, "Depart from Me, I never knew you."

God bless and have a great weekend,
Bill
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Old 06-01-2018, 7:24 PM
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Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Thanks for your clarifications and explanations! We're probably at a good ending point of this discussion. Thanks for bearing with me.

Please note - I question no individual's salvation. That's between the Lord and you. BUT, church doctrines are published and comparable to the Bible. So, as part of God's expectation that I share the gospel, I am also required to point out those churches whose doctrine differs from God's way. As I said, I really don't want to see anyone told, "Depart from Me, I never knew you."

God bless and have a great weekend,
Bill

Sorry I meant DOESNT teach that we are destined for Hell,
BUT our free will allows us to reject God despite His offered Grace

(I typed it in and it became another word which I accidentally deleted,)
Typing on an iPad can be tricky!

But truly if there something that doesn’t make sense, ask around because perhaps you had Catholic people reoundyou who catechized the wrong thing...and it happens a great deal...wrong interpretation or wrong teaching nd it turns people from the faith.

You have a great weekend as well. And as always be safe at the range!
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Old 06-01-2018, 7:30 PM
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Old 06-01-2018, 8:31 PM
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<...Snipped...>

Why do I make a point of differentiating Christianity from Catholicism? I firmly believe that when a Catholic calls themselves a Christian, they never stop to see the fundamental difference in beliefs about how one gets into heaven. I want every Catholic to know that if they believe what the RCC teaches, then they don't believe God's Word - the Bible - on God's expectations of how to get into heaven. I don't want them dying and standing before Christ only to hear, "Depart from Me, I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23).

God bless,
So since you're saying Catholics aren't Christians and we know only Christians go to Heaven, Catholics will be going to hell? Nah.

Personally I believe that Luther, Spurgeon, the Popes of the past, Mother Teresa et al., are all rejoicing in His presence while we debate this here.
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Old 06-02-2018, 7:18 AM
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Billvau- I think if you really pressed Jesus on the issue, he wouldn’t care. There’s plenty of things that he spelled out very explicitly (helping the poor, rejecting wealth, etc). Those things are work enough for several lifetimes. Exactly how one does baptism or if you bother with it at all seems to be more of something churches worry about than the Teacher himself.
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Old 06-02-2018, 7:20 AM
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Billvau- I think if you really pressed Jesus on the issue, he wouldn’t care. There’s plenty of things that he spelled out very explicitly (helping the poor, rejecting wealth, etc). Those things are work enough for several lifetimes. Exactly how one does baptism or if you bother with it at all seems to be more of something churches worry about than the Teacher himself.
It's God you have to worry about, Jesus is the mediator.

1 Timothy 1:5


Matthew 7:21-23 is cause Jesus doesn't really care?
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Old 06-02-2018, 7:32 AM
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Billvau- I think if you really pressed Jesus on the issue, he wouldn’t care. There’s plenty of things that he spelled out very explicitly (helping the poor, rejecting wealth, etc). Those things are work enough for several lifetimes. Exactly how one does baptism or if you bother with it at all seems to be more of something churches worry about than the Teacher himself.
Well...then you just called Jesus a liar for what He said in Matthew 7:21-23.

To you and to everyone else disagreeing with what I've written, I challenge to you to go to God's Word and take Him at His Word - in context, properly interpreted. Our opinions are nice, but His requirements are necessary to get into heaven.

Have a blessed day!
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Old 06-02-2018, 7:43 AM
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It's God you have to worry about, Jesus is the mediator.
Matthew 7:21-23 is cause Jesus doesn't really care.

If one is a Christian, one knows that Jesus IS God. So is the Holy Spirit and the Father. The Paraclete. The Trinity. Jesus was fully God and Fully Man. Jesus never contradicts the Father. So His command to ultimately Love, is a command. He is the WORD made Flesh. He is scripture in the flesh that’s why He taught with authority

Everyone always gets on Catholics, because many of them mistakenly think you have to earn heaven, it you know what, if I’m bleeding on the street, it’s the one who helps me, the one even though he is wrong on his theology or whatever, the Samaritan who will be favored, not the faithful man of the cloth who wants to keep his hands clean...
Now it’s Solo Patris? god the Father only?

The Reason God sent Jesus, is because He IS God..A part of himself.
In th beginning there was God, and the Word, and the Word was with and the Word was God.....and Christ the Messiah is the Word made flesh.

TO SAY JESUS doesn’t really care is taken WAY out of context...

Jesus is preaching about TRUE VS FALSE professions, actions etc...stated clearly in most modern versions of the Bible:

KJV
Mathew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:21-23 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’


IN your name is to use God’s name in vain here...

He who does the WILL of my Father ,
JESUS and the Father have the same will (they do Not conflict)
To do something unwillingly, or because you want something (enter heaven) versus to do WILLINGLY ARE two different things. It’s not the work, but your will to obey Gods commandments and doing it with your whole heart.

If you truly have Faith, then you obey God’s commandments, and one of them is repent...
To REPENT isn’t a one and done deal, it’s an ongoing process TO align OUR WILL to Be in line with God’s WILL...do is an action verb.

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Old 06-02-2018, 7:51 AM
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I'm not Catholic.
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Old 06-02-2018, 8:15 AM
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Born agains the ex-smokers of the Christian world.
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Old 06-02-2018, 8:23 AM
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I'm not Catholic.
Not an excuse to take the Bible our of context.

I’m merely stating that in the passage Jesus is showing the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN:

GENUINE WILLFUL OBEDIENCE
Well we know when we are being obedient to God or not...self explanatory
(Christ also followed the law by honoring His parents, since it was at His Mother’s behest that He performed His first Miracle at the Wedding at Cana etc, since He also came not to Abolish the Law but to fulfill it)

AND

FALSE ACTIONS DONE in the name of God
(false prophets who do magic, sorcery, satanic or otherwise or even the mundane good works in God’s name for reasons other than that God wills it SINCE ONLY GOD knows what goes on in the heart of men and can distinguish between genuine and false actions and recognize when someone has willfully rejected God’s will in favor of selfish or otherwise wicked motives in the guise of good or wonderful works supposedly in his name. You can’t fool God by appearing to be good in word and deed if you’re secretly disobeying the Father.

From the sermon on the mount. It’s not contradicting what Christ commands because Christ won’t contradict himself in His teachings.

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Old 06-04-2018, 9:02 AM
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Born agains the ex-smokers of the Christian world.
That one made me laugh!
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Old 06-04-2018, 9:16 AM
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"Verily, verily, I say unto you: Unless you've been dunked, no baptism for you."

Wait. Nope. He never said that.

Love God. Love your neighbor. Give to the poor. Help those in need. Self sacrifice for the sake of others. Never let rules interfere with any of the above. Yep. Lots of stuff about that. Lots. Seems that he couldn't stop talking about it. Baptism? Yea, he did that once. His semi-feral & homeless cousin talked him into it one day. But that was about it.
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Old 06-22-2018, 5:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyron View Post
Very sad! Infant Baptism has no meaning for them. If anyone is being baptized they must be able to acknowledge their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Wrong.


There are precisely two influences in the world. Jesus. And His, 'loyal opposition.' How LONG do you want to leave your child in the clutches of the latter?


Moreover, baptism is a GIFT. Be ye 8 seconds, or 108 years old, you do NOTHING to "earn" it; all you CAN "do," is say, "THANK you," in acknowledgement of Christ free & unmerited grace in the gift of His sacrament.



Remember the 3rd article of the Creed, as we teach it from the Small Catechism;


Quote:
The Third Article.
Of Sanctification.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

What does this mean?--Answer.


I believe that I cannot - by my own reason or strength - believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but... the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

One CANNOT, 'make a decision for Jesus.' Because by the time you can even THINK the words... the Holy Spirit done got to you FIRST.




/Here endeth the lesson...
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