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  #1  
Old 06-30-2018, 2:38 PM
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Talking Was the American Revolution a Biblically-justifiable Revolution?

With Independence Day next week, I'll be teaching on this tomorrow in Sunday School. Soooooo, thought I'd see what Christians here know about the biblical perspective on revolution, specifically, the American Revolution!

I'm sure we all have a view, and many will go to Google to justify their view. I'm not interested in that! I'm more interested in how you would answer someone at church tomorrow who comes up to you with this question! In other words, put on the spot, how would you answer them from the Bible!

I'll take the time to thoroughly read responses that are based on the Bible. BUT, I'm not here on this topic to debate your position vs. mine, etc. I'll find time to post my biblical view sometime in the next few days when my schedule permits!

God bless and Happy 4th of July / Independence Day to all!
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Old 06-30-2018, 6:45 PM
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The Mercantilist system forced upon the colonists was sinful. Not allowing the colonists to trade on the free market and only being allowed to buy and sell from British companies at the prices they set guaranteed poverty for the colonists. Then forcing the colonists to pay for the British Navy to protect the shipping lanes to and from India was punishing while giving the colonists no say in Parliment. Our God is a just God. He demands that His people be just. How could good Christian men stand by and allow an unjust government starve it's own citizens? If you think this is hyperbole, just remember the Irish potato famine inflicted by the British just a half century later. The American Revolution was fought by men who did not want to but had to.
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Old 06-30-2018, 7:09 PM
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passages in the bible do encourage submission to government, and so i have heard more than one christian denounce the rebellion (of whites) as not supported by the bible.

there is some support for the idea that, although the colonies had their legitimate grievances, many were overblown and could have been addressed without revolution.

however, i believe justification can be found when the british started to disarm colonists in and around boston, and in the atrocities committed by the british in order to maintain control prior to and during the revolution.
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Old 07-01-2018, 5:17 AM
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Ecclesiastes 3 King James Version (KJV)

3 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
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Old 07-01-2018, 9:46 AM
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The colonialis were suppose to submit to authority and obey all the laws set forth unless of course those laws violated God's laws.
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Old 07-01-2018, 11:00 AM
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(1 Peter 2:13-20)


1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.

"Let every soul be subject" I think that means everybody.

"For there is no power but of God": the powers that be are ordained of God."

The text says "All powers" and makes no exceptions, not even King George.

Some people might not believe or like what Peter wrote. But for me, it is plain enough to understand.

In WWii for instance our leaders said fight the Germans and we are to obey and join the army if drafted. The German soldiers were obeying their leaders. Their soldiers were not sinners for fighting in the war against us.
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Old 07-01-2018, 4:16 PM
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Take a good long look at The Mayflower Compact. The purpose stated in it was being subverted by the english crown. AND the crown WAS being a terror to me and women who conducted GOOD works, so look at this as item 3 in post # 6 is clearly Not the case with the crown's actions and treatment of the colonists in a evil manner by the crown.

Psalm 1
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Old 07-03-2018, 9:58 PM
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Biblical answer is Romans 13 1-7

13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will [a]bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

Subversion only comes about when we are instructed to go against God's word by the government. It is at that time the government can be subverted. Even then their are plenty of examples of the subversion done quietly rather than open disobedience. i.e the mid-wives not killing the newborn boys Exodus 1:17.

Tough pill to swallow for me but it is God's word and not my word. God does use all things to his purpose as he has used this nation for more good than bad and as home (refuge) for the Jew (God's people) during despair.
John McAuther gives a good teaching on this subject too.
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:26 PM
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I have listened to sermons on the Bible verses cited in the preceding posts, and I have heard varying explanations from being obedient to opposing wicked rules and rulers, and all of the sermons have been persuasive.

I believe, we would have a clear and unmistakable path to take, if God wanted us to rebel against our government. As wicked as the obama administration was and is being revealed, I never believed we were given permission to rebel against our government. In the multitude of circumstances of God allowing the obama administration to get away with the crimes it committed, I see the blessing that God has bestowed on this nation for waiting on Him to remove obama from power.
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:33 PM
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Justifiable or not, I'm sure thankful God blessed this country from its inception! there's multitudes of examples that suggest divine intervention, and that continually.
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Old 07-04-2018, 4:40 AM
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Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous increase, the people rejoice, But when a wicked man rules, people groan.

Psalm 125:3
For the scepter of wickedness shall not rest upon the land of the righteous, So that the righteous will not put forth their hands to do wrong.

Proverbs 28:15
Like a roaring lion and a rushing bear Is a wicked ruler over a poor people.

Isaiah 10:1
Woe to those who enact evil statutes And to those who constantly record unjust decisions,

Micah 7:3
Concerning evil, both hands do it well The prince asks, also the judge, for a bribe, And a great man speaks the desire of his soul; So they weave it together.

Isaiah 1:23
Your rulers are rebels And companions of thieves; Everyone loves a bribe And chases after rewards They do not defend the orphan, Nor does the widow's plea come before them.

Ezekiel 22:27
"Her princes within her are like wolves tearing the prey, by shedding blood and destroying lives in order to get dishonest gain.

Isaiah 3:14
The LORD enters into judgment with the elders and princes of His people, "It is you who have devoured the vineyard; The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
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Old 07-04-2018, 5:05 AM
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Oppression by the bootjacks. Like Moses leading jews out of slavery. If we had mot licked them out of US most of europe and italy would be speaking German and saluting the nazi flag. Maybe even the USSR.
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Old 07-04-2018, 5:53 AM
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Happy Independence Day to All! Thanks, everyone, for taking time to respond. As I expected I've been super-busy and today is no exception. So, haven't had time to summarize what I'm teaching in Sunday School (and, we didn't finish Sunday due to excellent questions and discussion).

But, the bottom line biblically is that the American Revolution was not justifiable. There are clear passages commanding us to obey government (Romans 13:1-5; 1 Peter 2:13-17) - and they were written at times of great oppression, times of pure totalitarionsm(sp?)/dictatorship. Also, there are no biblically-supported revolutions except one that threatened the line of Christ in the OT.

There are many biblical principles that also come into play about passages that can / cannot be used. For example, you have to be very careful when quoting the OT, because Israel was under a Theocracy and under the Mosaic Law, which we are not. And, you have to understand what the Bible means about murder, killing, war, the sword, vengeance, etc.

All nations today are not ruling under God, although all are ordained by God. Even the best of nations are going to have sinful leaders / sinful laws. But, the question underlying our behavior is - do the laws, decrees, executive orders, etc. COMPEL us to sin or do they just CONDONE sin? For example, abortion is condoned, not compelled. So, Christians avoid that law. But, when the mid-wives in the time of Moses were compelled to sin and kill babies that was different. They were to disobey. We disobey when compelled. Read Daniel 3 and Daniel 6! Compelled, disobeyed, punished (lions den/fiery furnace), and protected! But they didn't revolt. And, we don't revolt. We don't break laws committing civil disobedience. We can flee or we can submit to punishment for disobedience. And, in our country, we we elect Caesar, we can legally work to change laws and leaders. But, the power of the sword is only for government (Romans 13).

So, as Christians, today we celebrate what God has allowed for us in this country. We just don't celebrate how that freedom was attained. God has blessed us immensely in spite of many, many sins on the part of leaders and sins in our own lives! We're just thankful for everything under our sovereign God.

If you're interested, Geisler wrote an exceptional chapter in his Christian Ethics book on Civil Disobedience. Great read. Totally biblical in argument and examples.

So, Happy 4th and God bless!
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Old 07-08-2018, 11:37 PM
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"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." -Ephesians 6:12

Satan is the ruler of this world. While God has set governments in place, Satan and the forces of darkness are the Deep State, invisibly manipulating things that are good, to do evil.

Covetousness leads to theft, murder, war, and idolatry all perpetrated under the authority of government. Remember in Daniel, that the government commanded all to worship the idol or suffer the punishment of being burned alive. We know that is wrong. So, sometimes government asks us to do things that are not okay with God.

Romans 13 cannot possibly be construed to mean that we should worship idols because the government commands it. If rebelling against government idolatry is acceptable, rebelling against other government sins and injustices is too. It isn't just the ten commandments, but the misapplication of every commandment (613 of them) given in the Bible.

So which of those commandments did the Crown of England deny the colonists? Which of them is listed in the Declaration of Independence?

I can think of few: (1) The imposition of taxes as a means of theft (Lev 19:13). (2) Judges cannot pervert justice by showing partiality to powerful people(ie; the King). (3) A king must not rule for the accumulation of wealth. (Deut 17:17)

There are probably more correlations between the violation of Law and the colonists complaints against the King of England.
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Old 07-10-2018, 8:53 AM
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One can find plenty of justification for rebellion in the Bible and one can find plenty of justification for submitting to authority. What we argue largely depends on what side we're already on.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
One can find plenty of justification for rebellion in the Bible and one can find plenty of justification for submitting to authority. What we argue largely depends on what side we're already on.
So, show us the justification for rebellion in the Bible.
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Old 07-10-2018, 4:29 PM
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So, show us the justification for rebellion in the Bible.
For rebellion in general, Jesus was a Messiah. The job of the Messiah was to depose foreign rule and institute a theocracy. Jesus was executed for sedition against the Romans and the priestly authority in Jerusalem. The Romans and the priests didn't misunderstand him or his message one bit. They saw it as clear as ever. It's a pretty clear statement that rebellion against unjust authority is sanctioned by Jesus himself. Sell your cloak & buy a sword, I believe he is quoted as saying.

But neither Jesus nor any of the old testament prophets had anything to say about the British or the American colonists. They didn't care about them. They only cared about God's chosen people, the Jews. So how you interpret that is entirely a creative process. But there is certainly precedent in the Bible for rebelling against the established rule if it is considered unjust or ungodly. Heck, even outright genocide is prescribed at times and even a sacred duty. Scary stuff in there.

However, I'll say that I respect and mostly agree with your position that the American Revolution was not some holy quest for the Kingdom of God on earth. Whatever Jesus thought he was going to do here, his followers took a much softer approach (probably to avoid further persecution and to gain acceptance in the Roman world). Submission to authority was more important to them.

Of course, if one wants to take up arms against their government, they'd do well to remember what happened to Jesus when he started toying with the idea. The same fate likely awaits all who take up arms in rebellion against their government -- martyrdom. Seems reason enough to work with what we have rather than use force.
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Old 07-10-2018, 4:44 PM
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So, show us the justification for rebellion in the Bible.
I'll also add that although I don't necessarily follow your rationale (I don't hold the Bible to be authoritative, inerrant or infallible after all), I have to commend you on taking a such a ballsy position. So many American Christians have their patriotism and their faith so tightly woven that they can't see the difference between the two. Saying that they might be in direct contradiction takes a lot of courage -- especially as a pastor and from the pulpit. So my hat is off to you!
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Old 07-10-2018, 4:57 PM
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Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God.

The greatest gift (aside from His love) God gave us was free will. It is of my opinion that gift is of such importance it allows for rebellion against those who try and take that away.

Jesus rebelled against the ideologies of the Pharisees and public ally rebuked then at every opportunity, to include flipping tables and cracking whips in the Temple.

Which is why I have hard times converging those verses with verses saying slaves obey your masters when, if that we’re true, the Israelites should never have left Egypt...


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Old 07-23-2018, 9:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Sgt. J Beezy View Post

Which is why I have hard times converging those verses with verses saying slaves obey your masters when, if that we’re true, the Israelites should never have left Egypt...
Since you mentioned it, a quick sidebar about slavery and the Bible.... People used the Bible to abolish slavery in every nation Christianity went to. The Bible was used to undo oppression, slavery and to give women their rights to every nation Christianity went to.

The Bible primarily documents the inspired story of freedom (the Exodus, as you mentioned in a round about way). The bible gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deut 15:12-15; Eph 6:9; Col 4:1).

Slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in our more recent past. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. Sinful man practiced slavery, not God. God had Moses demand freedom for the Jews in Egypt.

"Man-stealing" which is what America did in the 19th century to Africans, was in fact punishable by death. (Exodus 21:16). Slave traders were also condemned like murderers! (1 Timothy 1:8-10).

Seven years a “slave” in the Bible and the slave was set free, usually because a debt of servitude was paid off. (Exodus 21:2, Deuteronomy 15:1 and Jeremiah 34).
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Old 07-24-2018, 6:33 AM
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I am not sure that I can agree with some of the comments here, especially those saying that Christ taught sedition.
Remember, Christ said to render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's. No where did He preach against paying one's taxes(Mat.22:21), which is one of the major points of the American Revolution.
Furthermore, after Pilate's conversation with Christ, Pilate said he found no fault in Him. If Christ had been teaching "sedition" I am quite sure that Pilate would have said so, and would not have washed his hands of the whole matter. Christ was "blameless" and put to death to keep the Jews happy.
I have been told that the Romans had a habit of forcing someone to carry their burdens for them. Forced work, and that Matt. 5:41 was in reference to that. If they force you to carry their burden for a mile, carry it two. Going along with the turning the cheek and loving your neighbor. That is not "sedition".
Every single so called "Messiah" that arose to lead the Jews against Rome ended up bringing disastrous consequences on the Jews, leading to the final destruction of Jerusalem.
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Old 08-01-2018, 4:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormilan2 View Post
I am not sure that I can agree with some of the comments here, especially those saying that Christ taught sedition.
Remember, Christ said to render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's. No where did He preach against paying one's taxes(Mat.22:21), which is one of the major points of the American Revolution.
Furthermore, after Pilate's conversation with Christ, Pilate said he found no fault in Him. If Christ had been teaching "sedition" I am quite sure that Pilate would have said so, and would not have washed his hands of the whole matter. Christ was "blameless" and put to death to keep the Jews happy.
I have been told that the Romans had a habit of forcing someone to carry their burdens for them. Forced work, and that Matt. 5:41 was in reference to that. If they force you to carry their burden for a mile, carry it two. Going along with the turning the cheek and loving your neighbor. That is not "sedition".
Every single so called "Messiah" that arose to lead the Jews against Rome ended up bringing disastrous consequences on the Jews, leading to the final destruction of Jerusalem.

"The earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein." Psalms 24:1


Caesar has no possession... he, and everyone who has come to power before, and came to power after is a steward. The parable of the talents is appropriate here... when we get to the wicked servant, what he was given was taken from him and given to the 'good and faithful' servant with five talents, who was faithful in doing God's will.

Who took the talents from the wicked servant? It was those who by circumstance and the authority of God were allowed to overcome the wicked servant.

King George buried God's talent (ie; a people who serve and profit Him) in tyranny and sought to subjugate a nation that would glorify His Name. The colonies were taken from him and handed over to a Nation that would perpetuate His will erecting a righteous and just government that would multiply God's wealth.
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Old 08-01-2018, 6:15 PM
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George Washington, CHIEF among the Founding Fathers, was a godly & Christian man, who understood full well Roman 13, and the price of rebellion.


Therefore, if the American cause was to have ANY hope at all, he knew he - and the rest of the colonial patriots - BEST be praying harder than the British...


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Old 08-01-2018, 6:32 PM
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The righteous are always inspired by God to stand up for what is right. The scriptures are full of examples of wicked people and their wicked cultures being destroyed by God. The scriptures are full of the righteous being lead out of oppression and slavery. Whatever God says to do is the right thing to do. So the question is, were these men inspired or lead by God to do this? Ye shall know them by their fruits. The fruits of this rebellion was the God inspired Constitution of the United States of America where the freedom to worship the God of heaven as the individual sees fit (real freedom). Remember God works by invitation with principals that lead to greater freedom. Satan’s plan is compulsion, slavery by force. Good luck with your lesson
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