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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #361  
Old 04-26-2017, 8:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
As to that statement, I have doubts as to accuracy. But don't know for absolutely sure. I can find no online "cites" from die makers, stating which matls and heat treating methods are used in their products. I made a call to Larry Myers, long time chief engineer at RCBS. But he left early today. Expecting a call back or Email from him tomorrow.

My thoughts on this are that since "case hardening" is a rather complicated and labor intensive procedure when done on a production scale. That logic and SMP for creating a die would heavily lean toward a harder steel, in a softer stable condition for machinability. Then "through hardening" en mass in a heat treat oven. That is how modern rifle receivers are made, as opposed to the soft steel, case harden method used in by gone years on rifles such as the military Mausers. Which is slower and a much more expensive process.
Every company can do it however they want so whatever your RCBS friend tells you may not apply to other companies.

I am speaking from personal experience of actually machining dies.
When you cut through the hard shell, the ones I have worked on were soft inside.
I don't recall if I have cut open an RCBS though so you may indeed find that they through harden theirs and we could both be right.

It may have been CH tool that told me to use a soft free machining steel and case harden or carburize to harden the shell.
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  #362  
Old 04-27-2017, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
[1]...Every company can do it however they want so whatever your RCBS friend tells you may not apply to other companies.

[2]...I am speaking from personal experience of actually machining dies.
When you cut through the hard shell, the ones I have worked on were soft inside.
I don't recall if I have cut open an RCBS though so you may indeed find that they through harden theirs and we could both be right.

[3]...It may have been CH tool that told me to use a soft free machining steel and case harden or carburize to harden the shell.
Actually Mr. Myers isn't a friend of mine. I've only ever spoken to him on the phone.

[1]...Yes, they can, but unless they use an economically feasible SMP. They fall behind others and go broke. Maybe that's what happened to a lot of the old die makers. Like C&H, Hollywood, Lachmiller, Wells, and others. Most of which "hard chromed" their dies.

[2]...I have only ever "shortened dies" on a lathe. And they were RCBS. And also at the thinnest part of the die. But they were damn hard all the way through. And yes, we could both be right.

[3]...That sounds as if they were giving you instructions on "making" a die. If a "one off" situation, case/carburizing would be a viable means of hardening. Because it would negate an economically feasible SMP required for production work. And using a product like Kasenit would fit the bill. I did find a quote from "CH4D" who is what C&H became after they went belly up back in the late 80s. Which I found very interesting. And may again show us to both be right.

Quote:
CH4D RELOADING DIES
CH4D reloading dies are manufactured in our factory in Mt. Vernon, Ohio USA. Our dies are precision
machined from high quality steel, heat treated to 59 Rockwell C to a depth of .030" for maximum
durability, hand polished for smooth function, and ultrasonically cleaned and coated in a proprietary rust
preventative solution.
Again not absolutely sure, but it appears to me as if they are using a high carbon steel in a softer stable condition to machine. Then using a regular heat treating oven to harden it to a given depth. In order to cut oven time, increase production, and not make it hard all the way through. If they were using a much more expensive and time consuming carburizing system. Surely they would brag about it in their literature. For all I know at this time, RCBS may use this same process.

An interesting read and even farther off topic is this summary of carburizing. But since I know very little on the subject past using Kasenit in the shop. I found it very interesting. Others may also.

http://www.brighthubengineering.com/...carburization/
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  #363  
Old 04-27-2017, 1:46 PM
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Heard back from RCBS, here is what Mr Meyers said. I even initially spelled his name wrong. Sounds same, spelled different.

Quote:
Mr. xxxxxx, I was asked to contact you to answer a couple of questions you had about our dies;

Our dies are made from 12L14 and case hardened to a depth of about .006 at 62-65 C scale.

Thank You for choosing RCBS
So Randall, you were spot on. RCBS must have a freak'n huge "gas carburizing" oven to keep up with production.

The question of SMP for new CH-D4 dies will remain a mystery. Person I spoke to, said they do not give out "proprietary info". It may be that with their hardness quote of .030", they may be doing what I though they did. But again maybe not.

With the small percentage of the OP's cases, which fail to chamber. I still contend that a simple "push through" base sizing die on a 7/8-14 body would solve his problem. As well as added advantage, of not breaking down rounds, and possibly harming those expensive bullets.

JM2c
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  #364  
Old 04-27-2017, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
So Randall, you were spot on. RCBS must have a freak'n huge "gas carburizing" oven to keep up with production.
Someone who used to work at reloading die maker once told me they also used 12L14, but I didn't mention it because my research into case hardening said that 12L14 was not a good choice for case hardening.
Perhaps that's why the case depth is only around 0.006"...
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 04-27-2017 at 8:22 PM..
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  #365  
Old 04-27-2017, 9:25 PM
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Hello Pacrat, ar15barrels and other contributors to this thread. I've been busy for a couple of days.

In a holding pattern pending the disposition of the damaged extractor

Ejector.jpg

This part will be upgraded as previously described.
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  #366  
Old 04-27-2017, 9:35 PM
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To packrat & ar15barrels, I'm just catching up on the last pager here myself. Doing so again, it again becomes apparent to me, that you both know a LOT more about this than I do. So, to you this path leads to an assured outcome.

Whereas, to me, this seems like nothing but a path fraught with uncertainty.

To five five six, chambering each round individually is exactly what I thought seemed like the smart way to check check each of these rounds, perhaps two pages ago. . .

As you or someone else said there's an 'a' pile, and a 'b' pile. The 'b' pile get taken apart.

pacrat, sir, I have an FL body die. This was THE problem. That 'FL' body die, is NOT in fact FL! It fails to encompass the very bottom 3/16'-1/4" at the base of the case by the rim.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 04-27-2017 at 9:47 PM..
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  #367  
Old 04-27-2017, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sfarchitect View Post
That 'FL' body die, is NOT in fact FL! It fails to encompass the very bottom 3/16'-1/4" at the base of the case by the rim.
This is NORMAL for almost all reloading dies.
The shelholder accounts for 1/8" of that length.
Exactly 0.125" as that is the standard depth of shellholders and the dies are dimensioned so they will size the shoulder to the correct length when against the shellholder.
Then you have a chamfer at the bottom of the die so that it does not scrape up cases that are not aligned properly as you attempt to slide the case into the die.
This can account for up to another 1/16" to even 1/8" or more in some dies.

Experienced reloaders know to watch for this and to avoid buying brass that has been previously fired in a chamber larger than they want to use the brass in.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 04-27-2017 at 10:34 PM..
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  #368  
Old 04-27-2017, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfarchitect View Post
To packrat & ar15barrels, I'm just catching up on the last pager here myself. Doing so again, it again becomes apparent to me, that you both know a LOT more about this than I do. So, to you this path leads to an assured outcome.

Whereas, to me, this seems like nothing but a path fraught with uncertainty.


pacrat, sir, I have an FL body die. This was THE problem. That 'FL' body die, is NOT in fact FL! It fails to encompass the very bottom 3/16'-1/4" at the base of the case by the rim.
As to the underlined, Here we are, 18 days and 365 posts later. 1st day, Post #30, Randall said to use a steel rod with a brass sleeve to punch out the stuck round. I said the same thing several times, but a copper sleeve. Yet it took you 12 days to unstick it. The wait for a "brass" rod, just took more time, and assured you would have to beat on it more, because of the properties of the brass rod.

As a Noob to this stuff, I can understand your trepidation. It is a very expensive "Derringer". And you had a mishap that was far beyond your experience. People have been driving stuck cases/ammo out of barrels since cartridge guns were invented. Scale is the only difference. It doesn't matter if it is a .22 RF or a .338 LM. Problem is same, solution is same.

Surprise, nothing blew up and the world didn't end. And you didn't have to resort to the dreaded "liquid jelly bean hydraulics" to clear it. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

As to the bold. Yeah, I've known since 1968 that a FL die isn't actually a FL die. I told you "why in post #209. And again in Post #325 explains why in detail. So does Randall's last post. A SB [small base] die with no mouth chamfer "MAY" solve your bulged base issue. A "Push Through Die" is the ONLY way to ASSURE the problem WILL be solved.

Quote:
The 'b' pile get taken apart.
Because you don't have a "push through" base sizing die.

JM2c

Last edited by pacrat; 04-28-2017 at 2:42 PM..
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