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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #2921  
Old 06-22-2017, 1:59 PM
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So... uhh... what is supposed to happen (or not happen) by Monday with respect to these regulations?
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  #2922  
Old 06-22-2017, 2:03 PM
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So... uhh... what is supposed to happen (or not happen) by Monday with respect to these regulations?
They approve them or not. It's a deadline. DOJ could pull them again.
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So it sounds to me like you're outraged about something that isn't actually happening anywhere outside your imagination.
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  #2923  
Old 06-22-2017, 2:11 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless America View Post
You first. You made the claim that OAL is a watchdig over DOJ, that they are politically aligned, and there is a potential conflict of interest.

Nobody has to prove you wrong; you need to demonstrate with evidence why you think your opinions are right.
I already posted the first text from the "About Us" page on the OAL website, but I'll do it again anyways:

https://oal.ca.gov/about-the-office-...istrative-law/

Quote:
Established July 1, 1980, the Office of Administrative Law (OAL) ensures that agency regulations are clear, necessary, legally valid, and available to the public. Since its creation, OAL has been and continues to be responsible for reviewing administrative regulations proposed by over 200 state agencies for compliance with the standards set forth in California’s Administrative Procedure Act (APA)
Debrah Cornez, the director of OAL, was appointed by Jerry Brown: https://oal.ca.gov/director/

She is a Democrat: http://www.centralvalleybusinesstime.../001/?ID=27553

Xavier Becerra, the director of DOJ, was appointed by Jerry Brown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_Becerra

He is a Democrat: same wikipedia article


I retracted my comment that there IS a potential conflict of interest, after it was realized a DOJ employee was only mistakenly thought to be working for OAL. However, if that were true hypothetically, the conflict of interest is obvious given what OAL's job is.

I'm blown away that I have to spell it out, at this point I'm pretty sure you're just messing with me.

Now it's your turn, substantiate that OAL's job is completely different than what everything about them says it is.
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I really hope the Office of Administrative Law isn't as stupid as DOJ thinks they are.
On 6/26, we shall see.


Last edited by cockedandglocked; 06-22-2017 at 2:15 PM..
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  #2924  
Old 06-22-2017, 2:11 PM
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It's not difficult to explain the purpose of the OAL, it's all over their website and on wikipedia, etc.

They are intertwined with the California Administrative Procedure Act, namely they are supposed to be the ones that fulfill the requirements of that 1945 law, even though the OAL only goes back to 1980.

"The act allows the public to participate in the adoption of state regulations in order to ensure that the regulations are clear, necessary, and legally valid.[2] The act allows that, as long as a person is not limited by a statute, any interested person can petition a state agency to change regulation. "

They are supposed to facilitate that any regulations meet the requirements of the APA. They can reject them if they do not meet many different requirements, and the public review is supposed to be handled by them and any objections taken into account.

Problem comes with anything that is APA exempt, which is also part of the law. Many organizations have criticized the OAL as needless red tape and would love to do away with it all together.

OAL constantly gets regulations that are partially or fully APA exempt. There is a gray area as to what they get to do with them. Do they actually have any review power at that point? No, if it's exempt from the APA then they are a rubber stamp. But it gets complicated when some regulations are and others are not, sometimes encased in the same bills.

Jacqueline basically said to me about the original regs that they are exempt so the OAL has nothing to do but accept them, pending some purely administrative stuff like page numbers and formatting. She could not explain to me why they waited until the deadline to do so, but I got the idea it had something to do with the DOJ requesting that they do. That's pure conjecture on my part, but it's the feeling I have.
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  #2925  
Old 06-22-2017, 2:17 PM
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Real estate developers, big businesses, politicians, and anti-government waste advocates all want to kill the APA. They think the public should not have the ability to meddle with the pipeline of law from the politicians to the legislator to the governor to the DOJ to regulations.

I say NUTS to that garbage. The APA is a very important part of the final adoption of regulation and it is TOTALLY intended to be a watchdog for the DOJ and government conspiring to railroad bull**** that is not intended by the law.

Problem is, like with everything else, most are against it because it gives power to people. You know, kind of like the 2nd Amendment.
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Last edited by Discogodfather; 06-22-2017 at 2:19 PM..
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  #2926  
Old 06-22-2017, 2:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Real estate developers, big businesses, politicians, and anti-government waste advocates all want to kill the APA. They think the public should not have the ability to meddle with the pipeline of law from the politicians to the legislator to the governor to the DOJ to regulations.

I say NUTS to that garbage. The APA is a very important part of the final adoption of regulation and it is TOTALLY intended to be a watchdog for the DOJ and government conspiring to railroad bull**** that is not intended by the law.

Problem is, like with everything else, most are against it because it gives power to people. You know, kind of like the 2nd Amendment.
That's why I think it should be illegal to provide APA exemptions to state agencies. The APA was written for a reason, to solve a plague of confusing & illegal regulations that the people don't have any say in. Exemptions serve zero purpose other than to undermine the intent of the APA and corrupt the regulatory system.

But alas, exemptions are perfectly legal, for some reason.

Even worse than them being legal, is that apparently an agency doesn't even have to prove that they're exempt, they only have to claim it and everyone has to believe them.
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Color? Barrel length? Caliber? Change whatever you want, not needed for firearm identification.
Bullet button? Absolutely necessary for firearm identification!

I really hope the Office of Administrative Law isn't as stupid as DOJ thinks they are.
On 6/26, we shall see.

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  #2927  
Old 06-22-2017, 2:33 PM
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That's why I think it should be illegal to provide APA exemptions to state agencies. The APA was written for a reason, to solve a plague of confusing & illegal regulations that the people don't have any say in. Exemptions serve zero purpose other than to undermine the intent of the APA and corrupt the regulatory system.

But alas, exemptions are perfectly legal, for some reason.
But it costs money! That's really the only argument Fascists can come up with to say it's no good. If you read about the history of it, it was signed into law by Earl Warren in 1945, primarily to mirror the system in place in the Federal version, also of the same name. Good old Moonbeam signed into Law the creation of the OAL in 1979, which was basically just making a dedicated entity to do this important work (previously it was done as a sub-department of another government organization). They thought it was that important to make a dedicated organization.

They further strengthened it in 1995 with more rules on abilities for the public to be heard.

Yet fascists (of the left wing variety in CA but also big business) doesn't think it's important to make sure these politicized entities don't create underground regs and even make law.

Tons of lawsuits exist challenging all this APA exemption BS, not just with guns. If you think about it, the OAL and APA works, look what happened to the mag ban regulations. No wonder the legislature has such a hard-on to write into law that it's APA exempt when they plan in advance to violate the law in order to dictate to "unlicensed subjects".
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  #2928  
Old 06-22-2017, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I already posted the first text from the "About Us" page on the OAL website, but I'll do it again anyways:

https://oal.ca.gov/about-the-office-...istrative-law/



Debrah Cornez, the director of OAL, was appointed by Jerry Brown: https://oal.ca.gov/director/

She is a Democrat: http://www.centralvalleybusinesstime.../001/?ID=27553

Xavier Becerra, the director of DOJ, was appointed by Jerry Brown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_Becerra

He is a Democrat: same wikipedia article


I retracted my comment that there IS a potential conflict of interest, after it was realized a DOJ employee was only mistakenly thought to be working for OAL. However, if that were true hypothetically, the conflict of interest is obvious given what OAL's job is.

I'm blown away that I have to spell it out, at this point I'm pretty sure you're just messing with me.

Now it's your turn, substantiate that OAL's job is completely different than what everything about them says it is.

I saw what you posted and it doesn't help you.

You simply do not understand what you are reading and writing.

Good luck.
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  #2929  
Old 06-22-2017, 2:46 PM
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But alas, exemptions are perfectly legal, for some reason.
Exemptions obviously exist so businesses, politicians, legislators, and the DOJ can go directly to market extended their power to the nth degree.

There are some procedural and very technical reasons to exempt things, as they are so clearly spelled out in the law that any review would be really a waste of time. But exempting some state agencies because they need the law to go into effect more quickly and public review would make it really slow is a HUGE difference from politicians and their donors looking to ensure the public can't voice their disapproval of regulations that aren't intended by the law or even VIOLATE it.

OAL has an excellent document highlighting the case history and even hypothetical examples of what should be exempt. No where does it say that politicians and donors who want unlimited power with no oversight of the public can be exempt if they deign so.

Huge part of the democratic process crapped on by the majority of organizations and people who have ulterior motives. You know, kind of like the 2nd Amendment.
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  #2930  
Old 06-22-2017, 2:52 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless America View Post
I saw what you posted and it doesn't help you.

You simply do not understand what you are reading and writing.

Good luck.
There is obviously lots of reasons to think the OAL could be compromised and have conflicts of interest when they are appointed by politicians. Is there any proof? No, it's conjecture.

What there is plenty of proof of is that exemptions from the APA smell to high heaven of being a sign of complete and total corruption. I am going to make a list of all the lawsuits that are pending on the issue.
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  #2931  
Old 06-22-2017, 3:02 PM
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Politically appointed =/= conflict of interest.

"Conflict of interest" is a legal term with a specific definition which is being used carelessly, at best, in this thread.
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  #2932  
Old 06-22-2017, 3:40 PM
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Politically appointed =/= conflict of interest.

"Conflict of interest" is a legal term with a specific definition which is being used carelessly, at best, in this thread.
Well, we are not lawyers, just gun enthusiasts. If the semantics are wrong we mean they could possibly have agendas in line with lawmakers that have it their best interests to poo poo the APA, which is supposed to be the OAL's primary pupose to facilitate.
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  #2933  
Old 06-22-2017, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless America View Post
Politically appointed =/= conflict of interest.

"Conflict of interest" is a legal term with a specific definition which is being used carelessly, at best, in this thread.
I don't recognize that it matters. Even if there were a conflict of interest (in the strictest legal sense, not the common sense, plain, normal English meaning), the courts would do nothing.
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  #2934  
Old 06-22-2017, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless America View Post
I saw what you posted and it doesn't help you.

You simply do not understand what you are reading and writing.

Good luck.
Oh, well that clarifies everything then, thank you for setting us all straight.

Love it when people come into a forum, announce that everyone is wrong, don't explain why or how, and get mad when nobody listens. It adds so much to the community.

I offered to let you explain why you feel that OAL was never meant to be anything more than an inter-agency postal service, and you have declined, choosing instead to just repeat that we're all wrong, over and over again and demanding that I provide you with citations, then saying the citations are wrong when I do, while refusing to provide any yourself.

If you're not going to add anything useful, then I'm not going to address this topic anymore.
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Color? Barrel length? Caliber? Change whatever you want, not needed for firearm identification.
Bullet button? Absolutely necessary for firearm identification!

I really hope the Office of Administrative Law isn't as stupid as DOJ thinks they are.
On 6/26, we shall see.


Last edited by cockedandglocked; 06-22-2017 at 5:27 PM..
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  #2935  
Old 06-22-2017, 5:48 PM
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Oh, well that clarifies everything then, thank you for setting us all straight.

Love it when people come into a forum, announce that everyone is wrong, don't explain why or how, and get mad when nobody listens. It adds so much to the community.
Millenials bro. A generation of the useless.

That's my excuse for everything. No offense God Bless America, as a senior member, I'm aware your not a millennial.

Last edited by DBilleb; 06-22-2017 at 5:53 PM.. Reason: Edited...
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  #2936  
Old 06-22-2017, 5:58 PM
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Oh, well that clarifies everything then, thank you for setting us all straight.

Love it when people come into a forum, announce that everyone is wrong, don't explain why or how, and get mad when nobody listens. It adds so much to the community.

I offered to let you explain why you feel that OAL was never meant to be anything more than an inter-agency postal service, and you have declined, choosing instead to just repeat that we're all wrong, over and over again and demanding that I provide you with citations, then saying the citations are wrong when I do, while refusing to provide any yourself.

If you're not going to add anything useful, then I'm not going to address this topic anymore.
I'm not doing your work for you. It's on you to stop your misinformation and to educate yourself. You do not understand the APA, the OAL, or "conflicts of interest." So it will be well for all of us that you decided to abandon the subject.
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