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Airguns, AirSoft and MilSim Air rifles and pistols, AirSoft and Mil Sim Discussion

View Poll Results: Which is better able to kill small game, .177 or .22?
.177 @1000fps 4 10.81%
.22 @700fps 29 78.38%
Only if the pellets are greased with bacon 2 5.41%
OHOD, your getting close, you game hunter you 2 5.41%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 04-29-2018, 2:57 PM
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Default Which if better for hunting, .177@1000fps or .22@700fps?

I'm looking at rifles and am kind of perplexed. Which caliber has more energy for killing small game i.e. rabbits, squirrel, raccoons and the such?
.177 @1000fps or .22@700fps
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Old 04-29-2018, 3:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHOD View Post
I'm looking at rifles and am kind of perplexed. Which caliber has more energy for killing small game i.e. rabbits, squirrel, raccoons and the such?
.177 @1000fps or .22@700fps
More energy for small game definitely .22. .22 does have an arc to it though so poa/poi will change with distance. .177 has a very flat shooting trajectory.
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Old 04-29-2018, 3:30 PM
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Interesting question someone do the math for us. I have a .22 that the muzzle velocity is 1050 it hits hard.
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Old 04-29-2018, 3:50 PM
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.25 @ 850.

Either of the two you mentioned is more than enough for cottontails, and either is pretty darn light for coons or big jacks. The .22 will retain more energy downrange. Both will take squirrels with good shot placement- IME those bastards are tough for their size.
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Old 04-29-2018, 3:54 PM
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For more depth, this is a good primer from crosman

https://www.crosman.com/get-hunting/airgun-ballistics
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Old 04-29-2018, 5:15 PM
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.20@920fps.






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Old 04-29-2018, 6:01 PM
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^ The Beeman owners.
Always stirring it up with that .20 cal stuff.

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Old 04-30-2018, 5:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ojisan View Post
^ The Beeman owners.
Always stirring it up with that .20 cal stuff.

Is .20 cal hear to stay or will go away by way of the dinosaur?
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Old 04-30-2018, 5:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwalt View Post
For more depth, this is a good primer from crosman

https://www.crosman.com/get-hunting/airgun-ballistics
that was a good read. Thanks for posting.
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:35 AM
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The .20 is here to stay.
It is a great middle choice between .177 and .22.
However, it is mostly a Beeman brand rifle only caliber.
Beemans are not cheap....but are very well made and worth the money.
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:49 AM
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.25 will take turkey or coyote all the way down to cottontails. .17 (at high velocity) will take all forms of pests from rat to crow. I have a hard time seeing a place for. 22 let alone .20 but then I have a 22 hornet and friends can't see why I want anything between 22 lr and .223. If it works for you it works for you.
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Old 04-30-2018, 1:31 PM
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.223 was invented for varmits. 22-250 is also a nice round.
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Old 04-30-2018, 9:54 PM
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The .20 is for the Sheridan air rifle before Beeman.
I'd like to know what gun you shooting 177 @1000fps? It's all down to shot placement. Squirrels and rabbits are a whole different creature than a coon. They got rather thick skulls, but both will working depending on the FPE on target. Just say you have a Talon SS in 177 with 10.5gr Crosman premier @1000FPS you are getting 23.32 at the muzzle. At 25yards out you are retaining 17.8FPE on target. Now let's switch out the barrel on the Talon to 22 with 18gr JSB at 700FPS you are getting 19.6FPE at the muzzle. Now at 25 yards you are retaining 16.9FPE on target.

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Old 05-01-2018, 6:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob112o View Post
The .20 is for the Sheridan air rifle before Beeman.
I'd like to know what gun you shooting 177 @1000fps? It's all down to shot placement. Squirrels and rabbits are a whole different creature than a coon. They got rather thick skulls, but both will working depending on the FPE on target. Just say you have a Talon SS in 177 with 10.5gr Crosman premier @1000FPS you are getting 23.32 at the muzzle. At 25yards out you are retaining 17.8FPE on target. Now let's switch out the barrel on the Talon to 22 with 18gr JSB at 700FPS you are getting 19.6FPE at the muzzle. Now at 25 yards you are retaining 16.9FPE on target.
177 @1000 was just an arbitrary number.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:21 AM
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.177 is the cheapest to shoot, but lacks the punch of .20, .22, or .25. It also makes the most noise because of the supersonic pellets (if your gun shoots that fast). I don't think I'd try a shot on a raccoon with less than a .25.

If you're taking shots on raccoons, I'd recommend a .22 LR. Not only do you have more power, but the ammo is cheap. You can also buy a rimfire rifle for less than most pellet guns. You can also shoot super quiet CCI CB Shorts or Longs if you hand cycle. They're usually quieter than a pellet gun.

I know from experience that CCI CB Longs can take out raccoons. It's a 29gr round travelling over 700 fps.
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Old 05-01-2018, 5:55 PM
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Arbitrary or not. That's the math of it. Like others said I wouldn't shoot a coon with a .177 their heads have a way of causing deflections. Now, others have and they are far better shots. I wouldn't because I'm not trying to get into a hand to hand with a PO'd coon. Lol
You can see the ability to retain is greater for the bigger caliber.
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Old 05-01-2018, 7:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Caselaw View Post
.20@920fps.



Caselaw
Ok- someone had Mac1 fix their Sheridan
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Old 05-01-2018, 7:08 PM
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op

Trick question

KE = 1/2Mass x velocity squared
Momentum =penetration = mass x velocity

You don’t list mass so we cannot calculate the joules or foot pounds of energy.


Non native tree Squirrels will take a ..22cb cap to the body or .22 short to the body and run off.

You need a head shot to kill them or an upper spine shot to anchor them
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Old 05-01-2018, 7:11 PM
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To keep it simple-
Bullets from guns have a temp wound channel and a permanent wound channel

Pellet guns are low energy so their is not much of a difference between the 2


So the heaviest bullet is better


That is if you can hit as the heavier bullet drops more and who knows which is more accurate for shot placement
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Old 05-01-2018, 7:12 PM
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=38XtL-3SB2o

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Old 05-01-2018, 7:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHOD View Post
Is .20 cal hear to stay or will go away by way of the dinosaur?
Breaking down into crude as we speak.


Can't even find the Silver Bears any more.

Got a metric ****-load of Benjamin CYL's (12 tins?) on clearance a while back, for a field load (720 fps/16.5 lb-ft), but they aren't the most accurate.

The Silver Bears were awesome.




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Old 05-01-2018, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
Ok- someone had Mac1 fix their Sheridan
Bob and Tom at Air-Venture fixed my R1.






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Old 05-01-2018, 8:25 PM
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OHOD,

Hunters say that a raccoon is a big varmint, a 22 works better for those. Everything else you listed is fine with a 177.
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Old 05-01-2018, 8:35 PM
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Best of both worlds

https://www.tacticalwholesalers.com/..._p_116606.html
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Old 05-02-2018, 9:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
Non native tree Squirrels will take a ..22cb cap to the body or .22 short to the body and run off.

You need a head shot to kill them or an upper spine shot to anchor them
I'm not aware of anyone making CB Caps anymore. They aren't the same thing as CCI CB Longs. I've never seen a squirrel run off after being hit with a CB Long or .22 Short unless it was a gut shot. Even then, running off is improbable. Both will kill squirrels with ease. 29 grains moving at 710 fps (CB Long or Short) to 1,100 fps (.22 Short) is nothing to mess with.

Perhaps you're thinking of Aguila Colibri's or Super Colibri's which are similar to old school CB Caps. Those aren't very powerful at all. They're 20 grains moving at 420 or 590 fps respectively.
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Old 05-02-2018, 9:54 AM
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A .177 is a light target round that can be pressed into use for hunting small animals. Anything tougher than a bird (pigeon size) and your shot placement must be good or you'll just lose the recovery. Target-wise, they have flatter trajectories and are cheaper to shoot.

A .22 is a light hunting round that can be pressed into use for target shooting. It's a good target round with the heavier weights but it's more expensive to shoot.

On the other hand, why not go for a .22 at 900 fps? An inexpensive Gamo gas piston could probably get you there.

Or look to the .25 for a more serious hunting caliber.
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Old 05-04-2018, 5:51 PM
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How far? My iron sight R7 is perfect for ground squirrel inside of 25 yards. JB Predators are awesome. Beyond that gusty wind and low power come into play.
I have a Diana 350 in .22 that destroys crows farther out. But it is not something I want to use all the time. YMMV
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Old 05-05-2018, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHOD View Post
Is .20 cal hear to stay or will go away by way of the dinosaur?
Well...

Just got a pile of JSB Diabolo Exact .20 Cal, 13.73 gr - 500 ct for $13.40/tin delivered.

These are current production, high BC hunting rounds that are very accurate from the R1, and should clock ~ 750 fps and net 17 lb-ft at the muzzle.

Maybe not so dead after all.




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Old 05-06-2018, 12:53 PM
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Looks like .22 caliber is the go to rifle for hunting. Unfortunately my land lord will not allow us to cook any game in the household.
Her reason is that the you kid will be exposed to "guns" and she doesn't want him to be exposed.
Funny, he has toy guns all over the place.
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Old 05-06-2018, 1:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
I'm not aware of anyone making CB Caps anymore. They aren't the same thing as CCI CB Longs. I've never seen a squirrel run off after being hit with a CB Long or .22 Short unless it was a gut shot. Even then, running off is improbable. Both will kill squirrels with ease. 29 grains moving at 710 fps (CB Long or Short) to 1,100 fps (.22 Short) is nothing to mess with.

Perhaps you're thinking of Aguila Colibri's or Super Colibri's which are similar to old school CB Caps. Those aren't very powerful at all. They're 20 grains moving at 420 or 590 fps respectively.
I use Super Colibri. Perfect for my situation. Know your limitations. OHOD practice with what you decide. There isn't any fun tracking a wounded animal.
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Old 05-06-2018, 2:32 PM
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I use Super Colibri. Perfect for my situation. Know your limitations. OHOD practice with what you decide. There isn't any fun tracking a wounded animal.
Believe it or not, its legal to hunt hog with an air rifle in Florida...year round. I think you have to have a .30 caliber or something like that. Your allowed to hunt squirrel and rabbits too.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
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Believe it or not, its legal to hunt hog with an air rifle in Florida...year round. I think you have to have a .30 caliber or something like that. Your allowed to hunt squirrel and rabbits too.
Sign up for the yearly snake hunt?
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Old 05-07-2018, 1:17 PM
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Sign up for the yearly snake hunt?
For real, those damn pythons are proliferating in the state. A perfect climate for them. Damn big snakes.
Kill every damn one of them I find.
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Old 05-07-2018, 8:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Caselaw View Post
.20@920fps.






Caselaw
This is true. .20 has more punch than .177 and flatter than .22
Best of both worlds.
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Old 05-08-2018, 1:50 AM
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OHOD,

"Waisted" or "diabolo" pellets lose accuracy when fired over about 950 FPS. They also slow down very rapidly above that speed, making "muzzle energy" a moot point.

If a given airgun exceeds 950 FPS, choose a heavier pellet to bring the velocity down. Heavier pellets with the same form have the added benefit of a higher ballistic coefficient. This means a lot more energy retained at 50 yards.

If a given model airgun shoots even heavy commonly available quality .177 cal pellets over 950 FPS, then that gun in .22 would probably be a better choice.

In my opinion, you want a muzzle velocity of 800 to 950 FPS. If a .22 cannot shoot 14 grain pellets at near 800 FPS, then you may be better off with a 10 grain .177 at 950 FPS. Now, 750 FPS may be close enough; as no "rule" is hard and fast. Much less than that, and the trajectory becomes very "loopy".

Most important question is accuracy. The higher velocity of the .177 makes range estimation errors more forgiving due to its flatter trajectory. Provided the velocity is not being achieved by means of "light" pellets (less than 7 grains) that slow down very quickly.

An 8 grain .177 pellet at 800 FPS will penetrate almost as deep as a 16 grain .22 pellet at the same velocity. Both will shoot through a rabbit's head. The .22 makes a bigger hole, so shot placement is a bit more forgiving. However, missing the vitals with a .22 is much less effective than a .177 through the head on small game or pest animals.

Straight shooters have measured velocities for a range of pellets in all calibers a particular airgun sells in. For instance, this RWS 350 sample data shows the .22 is a little more efficient than the .177. Also, note how much energy drops off at 50 yards with light pellets: http://www.straightshooters.com/rws-...t-tabs-ourtake

I have both the .177 and .22 RWS 350. The .22 is much smoother and less harsh in its firing cycle. However, the .177 does shoot heavy for caliber pellets rather well.

The RWS 350 is long and heavy, with a fairly substantial cocking effort. If I was going to recommend just one air rifle that anyone can shoot with, and that is very accurate, but marginal on power over 30 yards, it would be the Weihrauch HW50 in .177 cal. It is avaialble in .22, but the velocity is rediculously low: http://www.straightshooters.com/weih...t-tabs-ourtake

The HW50S is avialble from many different US suppliers. The lowest price seems to be ordering it from Europe. Krale Schietsport has a very good reputation, with fast delivery to the US: https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/...50-s-9231.html

If you want a bit more power than the HW50, but don't want the 40 lb cocking effort of the HW95, I would recommend the longer barreled (for more leverage) HW 85: https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/...hw85-9309.html

If you want to read what serious airgun users think of American guns, click here: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA....php?board=185

For European airguns: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA....php?board=171

Some of the Turkish Kral airguns seems to combine good performance with low cost: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA...hp?board=125.0


If you step up to precharged pneumatics (PCPs), then I would skip right over most in .177 caliber: Almost all the ones sold in the US "shoot too fast" for accuracy (with possible exception of those linked at the bottom of this message).

I am particularly happy with my Benjamin Marauder in .25 cal. Again, choose something that shoots common quality pellets with a muzzle velocity in the range 800 to 950 FPS. A little lower threshold muzzle velocity is still OK as the caliber gets larger, as the ballistic coefficient of the larger pellets is better than the smaller ones; so they retain velocity better at longer distances.

You might consider these more affordable PCPs:
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Benja...ated/4569/8919
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Benja...ifle/3910/7498

Last edited by subscriber; 05-08-2018 at 2:35 AM..
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Old 05-08-2018, 9:49 AM
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Old 05-08-2018, 11:00 AM
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OHOD,

"Waisted" or "diabolo" pellets lose accuracy when fired over about 950 FPS. They also slow down very rapidly above that speed, making "muzzle energy" a moot point.

If a given airgun exceeds 950 FPS, choose a heavier pellet to bring the velocity down. Heavier pellets with the same form have the added benefit of a higher ballistic coefficient. This means a lot more energy retained at 50 yards.

If a given model airgun shoots even heavy commonly available quality .177 cal pellets over 950 FPS, then that gun in .22 would probably be a better choice.

In my opinion, you want a muzzle velocity of 800 to 950 FPS. If a .22 cannot shoot 14 grain pellets at near 800 FPS, then you may be better off with a 10 grain .177 at 950 FPS. Now, 750 FPS may be close enough; as no "rule" is hard and fast. Much less than that, and the trajectory becomes very "loopy".

Most important question is accuracy. The higher velocity of the .177 makes range estimation errors more forgiving due to its flatter trajectory. Provided the velocity is not being achieved by means of "light" pellets (less than 7 grains) that slow down very quickly.

An 8 grain .177 pellet at 800 FPS will penetrate almost as deep as a 16 grain .22 pellet at the same velocity. Both will shoot through a rabbit's head. The .22 makes a bigger hole, so shot placement is a bit more forgiving. However, missing the vitals with a .22 is much less effective than a .177 through the head on small game or pest animals.

Straight shooters have measured velocities for a range of pellets in all calibers a particular airgun sells in. For instance, this RWS 350 sample data shows the .22 is a little more efficient than the .177. Also, note how much energy drops off at 50 yards with light pellets: http://www.straightshooters.com/rws-...t-tabs-ourtake

I have both the .177 and .22 RWS 350. The .22 is much smoother and less harsh in its firing cycle. However, the .177 does shoot heavy for caliber pellets rather well.

The RWS 350 is long and heavy, with a fairly substantial cocking effort. If I was going to recommend just one air rifle that anyone can shoot with, and that is very accurate, but marginal on power over 30 yards, it would be the Weihrauch HW50 in .177 cal. It is avaialble in .22, but the velocity is rediculously low: http://www.straightshooters.com/weih...t-tabs-ourtake

The HW50S is avialble from many different US suppliers. The lowest price seems to be ordering it from Europe. Krale Schietsport has a very good reputation, with fast delivery to the US: https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/...50-s-9231.html

If you want a bit more power than the HW50, but don't want the 40 lb cocking effort of the HW95, I would recommend the longer barreled (for more leverage) HW 85: https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/...hw85-9309.html

If you want to read what serious airgun users think of American guns, click here: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA....php?board=185

For European airguns: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA....php?board=171

Some of the Turkish Kral airguns seems to combine good performance with low cost: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA...hp?board=125.0


If you step up to precharged pneumatics (PCPs), then I would skip right over most in .177 caliber: Almost all the ones sold in the US "shoot too fast" for accuracy (with possible exception of those linked at the bottom of this message).

I am particularly happy with my Benjamin Marauder in .25 cal. Again, choose something that shoots common quality pellets with a muzzle velocity in the range 800 to 950 FPS. A little lower threshold muzzle velocity is still OK as the caliber gets larger, as the ballistic coefficient of the larger pellets is better than the smaller ones; so they retain velocity better at longer distances.

You might consider these more affordable PCPs:
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Benja...ated/4569/8919
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Benja...ifle/3910/7498
Excellent post. Thank you for the insight and the links.
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Old 05-08-2018, 4:32 PM
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OHOD,

I don't know if you look similar to your avatar image. If so, a lot of advice about getting a 1000+ FPS spring airgun is probably off the mark.

One way to answer this, is to go to a Big5 or other store that sells airguns and ask the management if you can try cocking airguns to see how difficult it is.

I have 8 spring air guns. This includes a Beeman R7 (Weirauch HW30S) at the bottom end of the spectrum; and a Webley Patriot at the top end.

The R7 has a peak cocking force of 18 lb. While it is very accurate, it purpose is target shooting at 10 meters. I would not try to shoot anything larger than a rat with it, and not any further than 10 yards.

The Patriot has a peak cocking force of 50 lb. It has the power to shoot rabbits at over 50 yards, but is no fun as a plinker after about 10 or 20 shots.

In between are my HW50S and the Beeman R9 (HW95).

The HW50 has a peak cocking effort of 24 lb and can be carried and shot all day without fatigue. It is almost as accurate as the R7. Due to the larger swept volume and stronger spring, its energy at 25 yards is the same as the R7 at the muzzle. As such, the same rat size animals can be taken out to 35 yards as the R7 at 10 yards.

Some people do shoot rabbits out to 50 yards with the HW50, by only taking confident brain shots. As this 11 ft.lb airgun is near the UK energy limit of 12 ft.lb (without a firearm certificate), a lot of rabbits end up in the pot over there after taking a pellet from such low power airguns.

If hunting rabbit size animals at 50 yards is your primary use, then the R9 (HW95) is a much better bet. While it produces around 15 ft.lb, its cocking effort is 40 lb. This may be a bit much for a person of small stature.

Now, the HW85 has identical performance to the R9, but due to its longer barrel, the peak cocking force is about 30 lb. At 30 lb, I can shoot all day without fatigue.

The more powerful a spring airgun, the harder it is to shoot accurately. Precision up to a reasonable range, is more effective than shooting deeper holes next to your target.

Basically, all my spring airguns respond well to being held with the lightest grip that will support their weight. There is a lot of talk about spring airgun "recoil", but I see it more as vibration: The gun jolts back 1/4 to 1/2" and immediately jolts forward by nearly the same distance.

Holding a 20+ ft.lb spring airgun hard into your shoulder can produce a surprisingly sharp jolt (uncomfortable with my RWS350s). Yet holding the 350 lightly, one is aware only of some motion, but zero discomfort. This is the opposite of shooting a 12 gauge shotgun or .308+ caliber rifle. With those firearms, holding tighter reduces the felt recoil, while holding them loosely amplifies it.

You might consider contacting Steve Scialli of the Airgun Exploration & Advancement Channel: airgunsteve@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/user/svscialli/about
https://www.youtube.com/user/svscialli/videos

Steve evaluates airguns on youtube, and lives in Florida. He may even be willing to demonstrate airguns for you. If you have a budget in mind, I would frame the search with that. No point in looking at $1000 airguns, if you would never buy one.

Happy airgun hunting...

Last edited by subscriber; 05-08-2018 at 6:25 PM..
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Old 05-08-2018, 4:37 PM
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What the Brits can do with their sub-12 ft.lb air rifles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyTZGOMSMUk

Cans at 100 yards with a 15 ft.lb HW95: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRfl...utu.be&t=5m11s

Last edited by subscriber; 05-08-2018 at 6:25 PM..
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Old 05-09-2018, 8:04 PM
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JSB has some reasonably priced Diabolo Exact .20 Cal in a 500 round tin that are supposed to be very accurate and high BC from precision Springers.

Maybe the .20 will linger on a bit after all.




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