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  #241  
Old 11-22-2017, 2:15 PM
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Can I legally buy , posses and take to the gun range an AR Pistol, that has an OEM serialized receiver marked PISTOL, from a CA resident via FFL transfer of the lower?
My neighbor has an AR Pistol he is willing to PPT to me.

Last edited by pew.pew.pew; 11-22-2017 at 2:17 PM..
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  #242  
Old 11-22-2017, 2:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pew.pew.pew View Post
Can I legally buy , posses and take to the gun range an AR Pistol, that has an OEM serialized receiver marked PISTOL, from a CA resident via FFL transfer of the lower?
My neighbor has an AR Pistol he is willing to PPT to me.
PPT of semi-auto AR pistol with "bullet button" = illegal [PC 30600(a)]
PPT of semi-auto AR pistol with fixed 10 round magazine = legal
PPT of manually operated AR pistol = legal
PPT of a single-shot AR pistol = legal
PPT of an AR pistol receiver = legal
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  #243  
Old 11-22-2017, 6:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
PPT of semi-auto AR pistol with "bullet button" = illegal [PC 30600(a)]
PPT of semi-auto AR pistol with fixed 10 round magazine = legal
PPT of manually operated AR pistol = legal
PPT of a single-shot AR pistol = legal
PPT of an AR pistol receiver = legal
We really do need a "like" button

As usual, on point and accurate with no BS or speculation.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #244  
Old 11-24-2017, 11:41 AM
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Guess I better get hopping on that XM177E1 build
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  #245  
Old 11-26-2017, 5:35 PM
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Anybody got a stripped pistol lower they want to sell?
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  #246  
Old 12-02-2017, 3:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
It needs to be a single-shot that operates with a break-top/open action or with a bolt-action and it can never have been a semi-auto prior to being made into a single-shot. [PC 32100(b)]
The entirety of article 4 and 5 is referring to the sale of unsafe handguns that are concealable. If you are building the pistol for yourself, or modifying one that you already purchased, then it does not apply. And it is questionable if an AR pistol is even concealable.
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  #247  
Old 12-02-2017, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by igs View Post
The entirety of article 4 and 5 is referring to the sale of unsafe handguns that are concealable. If you are building the pistol for yourself, or modifying one that you already purchased, then it does not apply. And it is questionable if an AR pistol is even concealable.
It is also illegal to manufacture a non-rostered or non-roster-exempt handgun.

Has been for over 10 years.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #248  
Old 12-02-2017, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
It is also illegal to manufacture a non-rostered or non-roster-exempt handgun.

Has been for over 10 years.
Illegal for sale.
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  #249  
Old 12-02-2017, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by igs View Post
Illegal for sale.
Illegal to manufacture as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #250  
Old 12-02-2017, 4:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Illegal to manufacture as well.
Manufacture for sale. The CA code references US code for definition.

The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE...p44-sec921.htm
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  #251  
Old 12-02-2017, 4:35 PM
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You are wrong, but whatever.

Good luck
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #252  
Old 12-03-2017, 1:32 PM
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That's why it's called the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale and why PPT are exempt. People tend to confuse the roster with the likes of AW or SBR which are illegal to possess.
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  #253  
Old 12-03-2017, 1:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
Manufacture for sale. The CA code references US code for definition.

The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE...p44-sec921.htm
CA hass it's own criteria for determining who a "manufacturer" is.

Currently, there are licensed manufacturers (FFLs) and unlicensed manufacturers (non-FFLs).
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  #254  
Old 12-03-2017, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
CA hass it's own criteria for determining who a "manufacturer" is.

Currently, there are licensed manufacturers (FFLs) and unlicensed manufacturers (non-FFLs).
You can only be a CA unlicensed manufacturer if you are a federally licensed manufacturer.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to a person licensed to manufacture firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code who manufactures fewer than 100 firearms in a calendar year within this state.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...er=1.&article=
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  #255  
Old 12-04-2017, 7:40 AM
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My old 7.5" has a DFM mag but I'm still too nervous to take it out. It will probably be saved for out of state useage to avoid issues here.
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  #256  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:18 AM
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I'm sure somebody has asked this so excuse me if I missed it.

I have a Serialized spikes tactical AR Pistol that was PPT to me 2 years ago. It says SBR on the lower with its serial number (not sure if this matters). Its currently registered as a pistol and always has been even before I owned it.

What features are legal or illegal?

Currently I have a Sig Brace, BB, flash hider, pistol grip. Haven't touched it since I bought it so, now I'd like to know what changes I need to make to keep it legal.

Again, I apologize in advance for any ignorance.
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  #257  
Old 12-11-2017, 3:49 PM
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Originally Posted by changl99 View Post
I'm sure somebody has asked this so excuse me if I missed it.

I have a Serialized spikes tactical AR Pistol that was PPT to me 2 years ago. It says SBR on the lower with its serial number (not sure if this matters). Its currently registered as a pistol and always has been even before I owned it.

What features are legal or illegal?

Currently I have a Sig Brace, BB, flash hider, pistol grip. Haven't touched it since I bought it so, now I'd like to know what changes I need to make to keep it legal.

Again, I apologize in advance for any ignorance.
Because it has a "bullet button" style magazine lock, starting 01-01-2017, it is considered an assault weapon.

Since you legally acquired it before 2017, you are currently granted an exemption to possess it until 07-01-2018. This exemption is for possession only and does not grant you an exemption to advertise it for sale or transfer it while in CA.

Since the exemption for possession expires on 07-01-2018, you will need to do one of the following by 06-30-2018:
A. Register it as an assault weapon.
B. Modify it so that it is a semi-auto pistol with a fixed 10 or less round magazine. In order to be considered a fixed magazine, the magazine needs to be contained in the firearm and can not be removed without disassembling the firearm's action or the magazine needs to be permanently attached in the firearm's magazine well.
C. Modify it so that it is a manually operated pistol. This can be done by removing the gas tube/piston and plugging the gas block.
D. Disassembled parts. Disassemble the firearm into parts and never assemble them while in CA.
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  #258  
Old 12-11-2017, 10:57 PM
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Lurker here finally decided to chime in.

I try very hard not to ask questions already asked but I must admit this entire topic is confusing and nonsensical. Should mention I moved here a few years ago for work from up north where the suppressors and sbr's frolic freely.

I have yet to see mention of builds using a single shot lower or single shot 80%. I'm talking about the lowers you would see on Ferret 50's and the older Serbu 50's.

No provision at all for a magazine. Found these https://www.hellfirearmory.com/index...product_id=118 and figured this would be the ticket.

Read a few times in various threads that you need to build the upper because factory uppers are test fired. Is this a CA thing? What I mean is what difference would it make if the upper was fired in any configuration, the upper is not the firearm in the eyes of the ATF. That's the same as saying if you bought a FA BCG that was ever in a Class 3 gun that BCG magically makes your rifle a machine gun (an illegal one). Could somebody expand on this for me?

If I'm tracking correctly I could finish the above 80% single shot lower drop an LMT 12.5" piston upper on it with the piston plugged, muzzle device pin/welded and be completely GTG.

With that specific configuration in mind would that pass the acceptable criteria?

Thanks in advance for the info.

A06

Last edited by Anchor Zero Six; 12-12-2017 at 9:32 AM..
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  #259  
Old 12-12-2017, 4:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchor Zero Six View Post
Read a few times in various threads that you need to build the upper because factory uppers are test fired. Is this a CA thing? What I mean is what difference would it make if the upper was fired in any configuration, the upper is not the firearm in the eyes of the ATF. That's the same as saying if you bought a FA BCG that was ever in a Class 3 gun that BCG magically makes your rifle a machine gun (an illegal one). Could somebody expand on this for me?
CA thing.
CA laws requires the handgun can never have been semi-auto prior to being made into a single-shot.
Semi-auto operation parts (gas tube/piston, etc) installed on it, is proof that the firearm was semi-auto.
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  #260  
Old 12-12-2017, 5:24 PM
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Don't take this as trying to start a debate I simply want to understand this completely.

"Ca Law requires the handgun can never been made a semi auto"

--If building on an 80% in this configuration its impossible to have ever been a semi as far as the lower is concerned which is the actual firearm. BTW planning to have engraved as well.



"Semi-auto operation parts (gas tube/piston, etc) installed on it, is proof that the firearm was semi-auto."

--Again the "Firearm" as we are are recognizing to be the lower could have never been a semi auto regardless of components. Even if you had DIAS it still would not allow that lower configuration to be anything more than a single shot.

I have given an earnest attempt to try to find the applicable phrasing in the CA laws that suggest the upper to be a firearm but have yet to see anything of the sort.

I understand your points as they would apply to an 80% with a broached magazine well or even as they apply to building on a stripped lower when that was still permitted.

I dont see how it would apply to the above lower provided the buffer was plugged and the piston removed or plug was welded closed.

Sincerely appreciate the info.
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  #261  
Old 12-12-2017, 5:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchor Zero Six View Post
--Again the "Firearm" as we are are recognizing to be the lower could have never been a semi auto regardless of components. Even if you had DIAS it still would not allow that lower configuration to be anything more than a single shot.
DIAS by itself (unattached/not installed) is considered a "machine gun". [PC 16880(b)]


Penal Code 16880
(b) The term “machinegun” also includes the frame or receiver of any weapon described in subdivision (a), any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
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Last edited by Quiet; 12-12-2017 at 5:34 PM..
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  #262  
Old 12-12-2017, 5:34 PM
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LOL yes I'm well aware of that was simply illustrating a point.
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  #263  
Old 12-12-2017, 5:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchor Zero Six View Post
I have given an earnest attempt to try to find the applicable phrasing in the CA laws that suggest the upper to be a firearm but have yet to see anything of the sort.

I understand your points as they would apply to an 80% with a broached magazine well or even as they apply to building on a stripped lower when that was still permitted.

I dont see how it would apply to the above lower provided the buffer was plugged and the piston removed or plug was welded closed.
CA DOJ BOF would only list single-shot AR pistol onto the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale when it did not have a gas tube installed, no gas block installed, and had a solid magazine well.

First attempts to list it included a functional gas system (gas block + gas tube) upper on a standard lower and it was rejected due to CA DOJ BOF still considering it semi-auto, even though it was a single-shot.
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  #264  
Old 12-12-2017, 5:58 PM
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Was this the Franklin Armory attempt?

Thank you that makes sense.

LMT sells all the components I would need individually so that's the route I will go even if it will cost a little more than buying a complete (and test fired) upper. Better safe than sorry.
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  #265  
Old 12-31-2017, 4:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
You can only be a CA unlicensed manufacturer if you are a federally licensed manufacturer.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to a person licensed to manufacture firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code who manufactures fewer than 100 firearms in a calendar year within this state.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...er=1.&article=
wouldn't this free up all of us who made their own firearms?
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  #266  
Old 12-31-2017, 4:25 PM
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wouldn't this free up all of us who made their own firearms?
Nope.

We are "unlicensed subjects"
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #267  
Old 12-31-2017, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Nope.

We are "unlicensed subjects"
OK. so, the CA handgun laws specifically sites 'unlicensed subjects'?
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  #268  
Old 12-31-2017, 4:50 PM
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OK. so, the CA handgun laws specifically sites 'unlicensed subjects'?
Yep.

And if you VolReg, it will be registered to manufacturer "US"
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #269  
Old 01-17-2018, 6:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Yep.

And if you VolReg, it will be registered to manufacturer "US"
where can I find the section of the law that defines "unlicensed subjects", and where can I find when that definition went in to effect, regarding self built firearms not intended for sale. I keep finding a lot of partial info, but it still seems like at any point prior to 2017, a person could legally build their own ar pistol as a semi auto with a BB (skipping the whole SSE route), because the person isn't a "manufacture" at that point, as it seems like prior to 2017 'manufacture' didn't apply to firearms not intended for sale. it seems like the handgun laws are solely and expressly in context of handguns FOR SALE.
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  #270  
Old 01-17-2018, 7:48 PM
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where can I find the section of the law that defines "unlicensed subjects", and where can I find when that definition went in to effect, regarding self built firearms not intended for sale. I keep finding a lot of partial info, but it still seems like at any point prior to 2017, a person could legally build their own ar pistol as a semi auto with a BB (skipping the whole SSE route), because the person isn't a "manufacture" at that point, as it seems like prior to 2017 'manufacture' didn't apply to firearms not intended for sale. it seems like the handgun laws are solely and expressly in context of handguns FOR SALE.
Prop 63... it's all in there.
Kevin DeLeon's "Ghost Gun" ban.

Effective Jan 1 2019, it will be illegal to possess a firearm that does not have a serial number (C&R exempt).
Effective July 1 2018, the DOJ must be asked for a serial number for any home-build.
Effective January 2017, any assault weapon registration application for an 80% build must have a DOJ-issued serial number.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #271  
Old 01-19-2018, 12:51 PM
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oh i get the part about the serial numbers. im trying to determine that if in the act of registering an AR pistol I will be incriminating myself in violating the CA unsafe handgun law. but, since i am not “manufacturing for sale” then i might not be in violation of the unsafe handgun law
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  #272  
Old 01-19-2018, 6:21 PM
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oh i get the part about the serial numbers. im trying to determine that if in the act of registering an AR pistol I will be incriminating myself in violating the CA unsafe handgun law. but, since i am not “manufacturing for sale” then i might not be in violation of the unsafe handgun law
Manufacturing for sale has nothing to do with the unsafe handgun law.
It is not legal to manufacture an off-roster pistol that is not in a roster-exempt form.

As long as your AR pistol was manufactured and converted from roster-exempt to semiautomatic prior to Jan 1 2017, you're good to go.
Effective Jan 1 2017, the definition of "manufacture" was extended to encompass "assembly of parts" and the general feeling among members who have a good grasp on the law is that it is no longer legal to convert from roster-exempt to semi-auto.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #273  
Old 01-19-2018, 9:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Manufacturing for sale has nothing to do with the unsafe handgun law.
It is not legal to manufacture an off-roster pistol that is not in a roster-exempt form.

As long as your AR pistol was manufactured and converted from roster-exempt to semiautomatic prior to Jan 1 2017, you're good to go.
Effective Jan 1 2017, the definition of "manufacture" was extended to encompass "assembly of parts" and the general feeling among members who have a good grasp on the law is that it is no longer legal to convert from roster-exempt to semi-auto.
ok but did I need to volreg when it was roster-exempt? I had so much fun making it with a 0 round sled and no gas system, that I kinda forgot the volreg it before I converted it to semi auto
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  #274  
Old 01-19-2018, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by axioma View Post
ok but did I need to volreg when it was roster-exempt? I had so much fun making it with a 0 round sled and no gas system, that I kinda forgot the volreg it before I converted it to semi auto
It can be Vol-Reg'd any time, so long as it was completed in an exempt form and converted in 2016 or before.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #275  
Old 01-19-2018, 11:14 PM
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  #276  
Old 01-22-2018, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
It can be Vol-Reg'd any time, so long as it was completed in an exempt form and converted in 2016 or before.
Does it require reg if it has no evil features?

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Old 01-22-2018, 8:17 PM
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  #278  
Old 01-22-2018, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Manufacturing for sale has nothing to do with the unsafe handgun law.
It is not legal to manufacture an off-roster pistol that is not in a roster-exempt form.
They’re the same thing. Unsafe means off roster.

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As long as your AR pistol was manufactured and converted from roster-exempt to semiautomatic prior to Jan 1 2017, you're good to go.
Effective Jan 1 2017, the definition of "manufacture" was extended to encompass "assembly of parts" and the general feeling among members who have a good grasp on the law is that it is no longer legal to convert from roster-exempt to semi-auto.
The definition of manufacture/assembly means by a manufacturer. You are only a manufacturer if you are licensed by the federal government. That’s by definition in the California code.
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Old 01-22-2018, 8:31 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelinfv View Post
Does it require reg if it has no evil features?
80% does

AW registration requires a DOJ-issued serial number and AW registration.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 01-22-2018, 8:32 PM
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Originally Posted by igs View Post
The definition of manufacture/assembly means by a manufacturer. You are only a manufacturer if you are licensed by the federal government. That’s by definition in the California code.
This is NOT correct under California law.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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