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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 02-18-2014, 12:06 PM
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Default Time limits to issue LTC

Correct me if I'm wrong:
After the lower court issues the injunction as directed by the Court of Appeals, San Diego must accept self defense and issue LTC's until such time as the en banc or SCOTUS issues a stay.

Does a stay go into effect automatically if cert for en banc or SCOTUS is requested?

Sounds like there may be a time window to get an LTC.
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2014, 1:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rossi357 View Post
Does a stay go into effect automatically if cert for en banc or SCOTUS is requested?
Yes.
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  #3  
Old 02-18-2014, 2:36 PM
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There's a difference between "accepting an application" versus "issue."

You're not going to get a CCW issued on the spot. It just means they have to accept your application with self defense as a good cause.

They can take however long as they want to "go over your paperwork." They still could use any excuse like "we don't have the time, the funds nor the amount of people to do this" as supplies of labor are limited. They're not going to redirect their deputies to paperwork shuffling, conducting interviews and what not. Therefore "we'll get around to reviewing your application around the year 2045" is likely to happen.
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Old 02-18-2014, 3:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ man in LA View Post
There's a difference between "accepting an application" versus "issue."



You're not going to get a CCW issued on the spot. It just means they have to accept your application with self defense as a good cause.



They can take however long as they want to "go over your paperwork." They still could use any excuse like "we don't have the time, the funds nor the amount of people to do this" as supplies of labor are limited. They're not going to redirect their deputies to paperwork shuffling, conducting interviews and what not. Therefore "we'll get around to reviewing your application around the year 2045" is likely to happen.

There are statutory time limits to follow.
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  #5  
Old 02-18-2014, 4:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ man in LA View Post
There's a difference between "accepting an application" versus "issue."



You're not going to get a CCW issued on the spot. It just means they have to accept your application with self defense as a good cause.



They can take however long as they want to "go over your paperwork." They still could use any excuse like "we don't have the time, the funds nor the amount of people to do this" as supplies of labor are limited. They're not going to redirect their deputies to paperwork shuffling, conducting interviews and what not. Therefore "we'll get around to reviewing your application around the year 2045" is likely to happen.

As Gray states, the code sets time limits on the application process.


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  #6  
Old 02-18-2014, 4:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
As Gray states, the code sets time limits on the application process.

Sent from my iPhone
True.

Does that mean the time limits will be respected?

Not necessarily.

Will there be consequences for not following them?

In all likelihood.

Will the Sheriff be eager to experience those consequences and expose himself to campaign accusations that he himself fails to follow the law or judicial edicts?

No likely.

What does it all mean?

The Sheriff is boxed in unless O'Scainnlain's decision is overruled.

Will he escape the box, Houdini-like?

Time will tell.
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  #7  
Old 02-18-2014, 9:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
As Gray states, the code sets time limits on the application process.
But in Orange County you can only apply by making an appointment. When does the time limit start? When you get in the 9 month appointment lineup or after you actually manage to submit your application at said appointment?

Nick
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  #8  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by nullman View Post
But in Orange County you can only apply by making an appointment. When does the time limit start? When you get in the 9 month appointment lineup or after you actually manage to submit your application at said appointment?

Nick
There will be litigation in both state and federal court over said question. Most of the appointments and interviewing is about determining good cause.
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Old 02-19-2014, 7:05 AM
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Quote:
There will be litigation in both state and federal court over said question. Most of the appointments and interviewing is about determining good cause.
True dat. But there's another issue too: "shall issue" implies the agencies can blow off all the deadlines because if you don't like a 9 month or whatever wait, they can punish you by withholding the permit.

Once there's a right to carry it puts teeth into the existing 90 day limit.
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  #10  
Old 02-19-2014, 7:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
There will be litigation in both state and federal court over said question. Most of the appointments and interviewing is about determining good cause.
I hope. The interview part of the process is totally unnecessary in a shall-issue environment, as is the psych test. And while we're at it, what part of the penal code requires that a licensee only carry certain handguns they legally own? A license should be good for any gun you own, not just 3.

Last edited by Rail; 02-19-2014 at 7:17 AM..
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  #11  
Old 02-19-2014, 8:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
There are statutory time limits to follow.
Tell that to the LASD. They make careers out of ignoring court orders.
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  #12  
Old 02-19-2014, 9:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullman View Post
But in Orange County you can only apply by making an appointment. When does the time limit start? When you get in the 9 month appointment lineup or after you actually manage to submit your application at said appointment?

Nick
It's in the code…you can find it if you look.

There are plenty of places you need to make an appointment for, not just OC.
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  #13  
Old 02-19-2014, 9:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rail View Post
I hope. The interview part of the process is totally unnecessary in a shall-issue environment, as is the psych test. And while we're at it, what part of the penal code requires that a licensee only carry certain handguns they legally own? A license should be good for any gun you own, not just 3.
PC doesn't say "3" or any other number, it says in 26175
Quote:
(i) Any license issued upon the application shall set forth the
licensee's name, occupation, residence and business address, the
licensee's age, height, weight, color of eyes and hair, and the
reason for desiring a license to carry the weapon, and shall, in
addition, contain a description of the weapon or weapons authorized
to be carried, giving the name of the manufacturer, the serial
number, and the caliber.
The license issued to the licensee may be
laminated.
- which does not say 'provably owned by the licensee' or any other qualification.
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  #14  
Old 02-19-2014, 9:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
PC doesn't say "3" or any other number, it says in 26175 - which does not say 'provably owned by the licensee' or any other qualification.
Ah, that's better. I thought the number was 3, and aren't some of the issuing agencies requiring that you carry double-action only pistols? I think that's crock. So is requiring employment info. I hope some of these things are addressed if the state legislature decides to change the statute, and I hope they'll allow some way for non-residents to carry.
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  #15  
Old 02-19-2014, 10:14 AM
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San Diego County form only has space for 3 - not sure if you can add more or not...I also heard that at the required training class you have to prove with all on the permit application...

never got that far, so I don't know...
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  #16  
Old 02-19-2014, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rail View Post
Ah, that's better. I thought the number was 3, and aren't some of the issuing agencies requiring that you carry double-action only pistols? I think that's crock. So is requiring employment info. I hope some of these things are addressed if the state legislature decides to change the statute, and I hope they'll allow some way for non-residents to carry.

Three isn't in the code, it's that the application only has three lines, so that's the de-facto limit for most agencies. With that said, some agencies allow you to have as many as you can fit on the back of the permit (for those still using the paper permit.)

Re: no single action, that's true for some agencies. Some agencies also only allow certain calibers, for instance, nothing smaller than .38. Lastly, some agencies such as OC don't allow lasers.


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  #17  
Old 02-19-2014, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
It's in the code…you can find it if you look.
What is the point of having time limits when the entity that the limits apply to is the same entity that controls when the clock starts?

Forcing you to make an appointment to hand over your application before the clock starts is simply dishonest (and illegal I hope) behavior.

Nick
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  #18  
Old 02-19-2014, 10:30 AM
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/\ You're preaching to the choir.


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  #19  
Old 02-19-2014, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Js View Post
San Diego County form only has space for 3 - not sure if you can add more or not....
The SD Application notes you can "add more if necessary".
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi357 View Post
Does a stay go into effect automatically if cert for en banc or SCOTUS is requested?
It is my understanding that a stay is not automatic pending a request for cert from SCOTUS. Case law may have modified this, so looking for someone to confirm.

Quote:
28 U.S.C. 2101 (f) In any case in which the final judgment or decree of any court is subject to review by the Supreme Court on writ of certiorari, the execution and enforcement of such judgment or decree may be stayed for a reasonable time to enable the party aggrieved to obtain a writ of certiorari from the Supreme Court. The stay may be granted by a judge of the court rendering the judgment or decree or by a justice of the Supreme Court, and may be conditioned on the giving of security, approved by such judge or justice, that if the aggrieved party fails to make application for such writ within the period allotted therefor, or fails to obtain an order granting his application, or fails to make his plea good in the Supreme Court, he shall answer for all damages and costs which the other party may sustain by reason of the stay.
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Three isn't in the code, it's that the application only has three lines, so that's the de-facto limit for most agencies. With that said, some agencies allow you to have as many as you can fit on the back of the permit (for those still using the paper permit.)
IIRC, Sylvester Stallone wrote down 4 handguns when there was only 3 spaces. So it is possible to have more than 3. Of course, that was the Stallion so who knows for the rest of the peons.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ man in LA View Post
IIRC, Sylvester Stallone wrote down 4 handguns when there was only 3 spaces. So it is possible to have more than 3. Of course, that was the Stallion so who knows for the rest of the peons.

There are a lot of CalGunners who have permits listing more than three guns.


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Old 02-19-2014, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
The SD Application notes you can "add more if necessary".
The state form, which all issuing agencies are supposed to be using, says 'use extra pages to list more'.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
The state form, which all issuing agencies are supposed to be using, says 'use extra pages to list more'.
Oh yeah. My rights have been oppressed for so long I forgot there was a standard state form!
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Old 02-19-2014, 1:23 PM
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Kern County has a total of ten firearms on your LTC. Guess they were tired of redoing application/renewals...and got smart!
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Old 02-19-2014, 1:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
The state form, which all issuing agencies are supposed to be using, says 'use extra pages to list more'.
Have you found a PDF form (for the application) that we can complete online rather than having to print it and complete it by hand?
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Old 02-19-2014, 3:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Have you found a PDF form (for the application) that we can complete online rather than having to print it and complete it by hand?
IIRC, CGF used to have one; it seems to have evaporated....

But there are issuing agencies who have odd opinions. Contra Costa Sheriff, for one, insists that the only version they find acceptable is a paper copy from their office on the 7th floor of Pine Street in Martinez.

Had they been required to read my attempts at filling such out, they would repent of that error.
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
IIRC, CGF used to have one; it seems to have evaporated....

But there are issuing agencies who have odd opinions. Contra Costa Sheriff, for one, insists that the only version they find acceptable is a paper copy from their office on the 7th floor of Pine Street in Martinez.

Had they been required to read my attempts at filling such out, they would repent of that error.
The San Diego Sheriff's Office has it online here, via their general CCW page.

Here is a mirror of the current version, as downloaded a few moments ago from SDSO: mirror.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Three isn't in the code, it's that the application only has three lines, so that's the de-facto limit for most agencies. With that said, some agencies allow you to have as many as you can fit on the back of the permit (for those still using the paper permit.)

Re: no single action, that's true for some agencies. Some agencies also only allow certain calibers, for instance, nothing smaller than .38. Lastly, some agencies such as OC don't allow lasers.


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See Bold Below.

From the DOJ Standard Application

List below the weapons you desire to carry if granted a CCW. You may carry concealed only the weapon(s) which you list and describe herein, and only for the purpose indicated. Any misuse will cause an automatic revocation and possible arrest. (Use additional pages if necessary.)
Make Model Caliber Serial No.
1._________________________________________
2._________________________________________
3._________________________________________
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:55 AM
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/\ Correct. But because there are only three lines, many (if not most) agencies limit you to three.


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Old 02-20-2014, 11:56 AM
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Merced County has the fillable pdf on their website.


https://www.co.merced.ca.us/documents/Sheriff's%20Department/CCWAPP_1.PDF


Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
IIRC, CGF used to have one; it seems to have evaporated....

But there are issuing agencies who have odd opinions. Contra Costa Sheriff, for one, insists that the only version they find acceptable is a paper copy from their office on the 7th floor of Pine Street in Martinez.

Had they been required to read my attempts at filling such out, they would repent of that error.
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