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80% lowers MERGED THREADS - please ask in here, not a new thread
Sorry if this has been talked about. I searched and couldn't find a thread on it.
If I build a homebuilt AR from an 80% lower and I use an Armaglock, can I skip getting a serial number and regeneration? ================= See bubbapug1's "How I Did It" thread from May, 2017 -
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1337537 // Librarian Last edited by Librarian; 05-24-2017 at 12:42 PM.. |
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1194330 This one is on the house.
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Didn't help. I already know about AB857.
I'm trying to specially find out if I use an ARMAGLOCK or similar magazine locking device, can I legally skip serializing and registering just like if I use a Maglock on my serialized rifles? |
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If you make a semi-auto centerfire rifle with a fixed 10 round magazine that can not be removed without dissembling the firearm's action from an "80% receiver", then it is not considered an assault weapon.
Since it is not an assault weapon, it can/does not need to be registered as an assault weapon during the 2017 grace period (01-01-2017 to 12-31-2017). However... Starting 01-01-2019, all home built firearms need to be marked and any unmarked home built firearm will be illegal to possess. If the home built firearm is not marked by 06-30-2018, then the owner will need to apply to CA DOJ for approved/provided marking information. This process will register the home built firearm as a non-assault weapon with CA DOJ. If the home built firearm is marked before 07-01-2018, then the owner/maker can legally mark the firearm with whatever information they want (as long as it meets BATFE marking requirements). This will not register the home built firearm with CA DOJ. |
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Thanks a lot! It's so great to just get a quality answer!
So to get this straight; if I build my own rifle and mark it myself with BATFE approved markings BEFORE 7-1-18, then I don't have to apply for a DOJ serial number, nor do I need to notify the DOJ that I have a home built rifle? |
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The firearm does need to be configured to comply with CA laws. ^Semi-auto centerfire rifle needs to be featureless or needs to use a fixed 10 round magazine that can not be removed without disassembling the firearm's action. |
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AR Pilstol Build legality, 80% lower
I know there have been tons of other questions asked similar to this but my question is very specific to a build I would like to do. MODS, PLEASE DONT DELEATE AS THIS IS REGARDING MORE THAN JUST THE NEW AW LAWS.
I have been researching the legality of building an AR Pistol from a 80% Lower for a single shot for the range. This is what I have gather, please correct me if I am wrong. I can purchase an 80% lower, mill it out, engrave serialization numbers according to the ATF (Manufacturer, Caliber, Serial Number, ETC. And as of now I don't have to request these numbers from the ATF, I can just make them up.), then build the AR Pistol as a single shot. At this point it would be a legal single shot AR Pistol. Am I correct? Because of the upcoming AW laws I could build it before 1/1/17 and register it as a RAW before 1/1/18. After it has been registered as a RAW, if I so chose (I am not intending to do this but want to know if it is an option), I could make some changes like add a 10 round mag and a mag release button (not a BB but a real mag release), as long as it complies with federal laws (meaning I don't make it an AW in the eye of the feds) this will be a legal AR Pistol. Am I correct? I could then have an AR pistol with a removable 10 round mag. Is this correct? This is what I have figured to be true from what I have researched but a lot of the info in contradictory and confusing. Let me know if your understanding of the law is different. I know we are all waiting for the ATF to hand down the AW registration laws but I am basing this of off what we are expecting. Thanks.
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-Gunner |
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nobody knows yet
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07 FFL Farwest Photography 408 217 9148 https://farwestffl.com/ https://www.facebook.com/FarwestFFL/ https://www.instagram.com/farwest_ffl/ https://www.yelp.com/biz/farwest-pho...hy-santa-clara |
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"I can purchase an 80% lower, mill it out, then build the AR Pistol as a single shot. At this point it would be a legal single shot AR Pistol. Am I correct?"
What about this part? This only pertains to current law. Do I need to serialize it to be legal after 2018? I though there was already a law about home serializing 80% builds.
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-Gunner Last edited by GunnerMichael; 10-01-2016 at 3:21 PM.. |
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Yes you can build it but read posts on this don't buy a polymer 80% lower very difficult to serialize legally . Don't know anyone who knows how. Quiet posted pc on this in last 24 hours.
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you could in theory...serial number the aluminum buffer tube IF you made it a permanent part of the receiver..and that would be the hard part..similar to the Sub2000 with the SN on the receiver/spring tube...in theory..
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07 FFL Farwest Photography 408 217 9148 https://farwestffl.com/ https://www.facebook.com/FarwestFFL/ https://www.instagram.com/farwest_ffl/ https://www.yelp.com/biz/farwest-pho...hy-santa-clara |
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I think that answered my question sort of. Thanks for the help.
I'm glad you brought up the polymer thing because I was considering doing one. Here is what I found: to legally serialize a polymer lower you need to attach a piece of metal to the side that meets the ATFs standard and put the serial info on the metal piece. I bet there will be a million ideas of how to do this. I could see it being done with some well places rivets. Also, it's easy to heat metal and push it into polymer, I bet someone will come out with plates with posts sticking out the back designed for this. But that might be for another thread. definitely gives me something to think about.
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-Gunner Last edited by GunnerMichael; 10-01-2016 at 6:52 PM.. |
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I realize your intentions, but just to be clear... ATF is fed and DOJ is CA. So
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My impression is that it needs to be an AW (under the new definition) BEFORE you register it.
What most people do is build it as a single shot and then convert it to semiauto. Only then would it meet the new AW definition, so you'd want to do that before the end of the year.
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The handgun needs to be made into a dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol or a dimensionally compliant break-top/open single-shot pistol. Because the firearm can never had been semi-auto prior to creation, you will most likely need to build your own upper, instead of buying an existing upper and modifying it. This is because existing uppers are typically test fired by the manufacturer as a semi-auto. In addition to installing a non-detachable 0 round mag/sled*, the following must be done depending on the type of upper... If the AR style pistol normally operates via direct impingement, then: 1. Do not install a gas tube. 2. Do not install a gas block or plug the gas block. This makes it a straight pull bolt-action single-shot. If the AR style pistol normally operates via gas-piston, then: 1. Do not install a gas piston. 2. Do not install a gas block or plug the gas block. This makes it a straight pull bolt-action single-shot. If the AR style pistol normally operates via blowback, then: 1. Install a dowel in the buffer tube, which prevents the buffer from moving. This makes it a break-top/open single-shot. The upper will also need a minimum 6" barrel length and the handgun will need a minimum 10.5" overall length. *non-detachable 0 round mag/sled... ^Until 12-31-2016, a "bullet button" style maglock + 0 round mag/sled will comply with this requirement. ^Starting 01-01-2017, a 0 round mag/sled that can not be removed without disassembling the firearm's action or a solid magazine well will be needed to comply with this requirement. Second issue... (keeping an AR style pistol CA legal under the new assault weapons laws) Starting 01-01-2017, in order for it to be considered a fixed magazine, the magazine can not be removed without disassembling the firearm's action. If a AR style pistol is semi-auto and utilizes a "bullet button" style maglock, then it will be considered an assault weapon. In order to make it legal, one of the following options must be done before 01-01-2018: A. Register it as an assault weapon. B. Replace the "bullet button" maglock with a maglock that does not allow the magazine to be removed without disassembling the firearm's action. (example... ARMagLock & BB Reloaded) C. Install a fixed 10 round magazine that can not be removed without disassembling the firearm's action. (example... Franklin Armory DFM) D. Take it out-of-state for storage or to be transferred through an out-of-state FFL dealer. E. Make it permanently inoperable (destroy it). F. Surrendered to law enforcement for destruction. Third issue... (required markings) In order to register it or transfer it, it must be properly engraved/marked. Markings must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. Markings must use Roman letters (A, B, C, etc.) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, etc). Markings must include: 1) Serial Numbers (can not be just a name, must contain numerals) 2) Model 3) Caliber 4) Manufacturer's name 5) City & State where the Manufacturer is located Since you made the receiver, you are the manufacturer. So, your name (first & last) and city/state needs to be engraved on it. If you do not properly mark/engrave the firearm before 07-01-2018, then you must apply to CA DOJ BOF for the required markings for home built firearms. [PC 29180(b)] Starting 01-01-2019, possession of a home built firearm without identifying information will be illegal. [PC 29180(f)] In addition, it will also be illegal to transfer home built firearms, unless it is to surrender them to law enforcement. [PC 29180(d)] Quote:
If it is registered as an assault weapon, it is unknown at this time if the "bullet button" style maglock can be replaced with a magazine release because CA DOJ BOF has not yet released the regulations dealing with the changes to the assault weapons laws. Quote:
CA DOJ is the agency in which we are waiting on. Quote:
(b) Commencing July 1, 2018, prior to manufacturing or assembling a firearm, a person manufacturing or assembling the firearm shall do all of the following: (2)(B) If the firearm is manufactured or assembled from polymer plastic, 3.7 ounces of material type 17-4 PH stainless steel shall be embedded within the plastic upon fabrication or construction with the unique serial number engraved or otherwise permanently affixed in a manner that meets or exceeds the requirements imposed on licensed importers and licensed manufacturers of firearms pursuant to subsection (i) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code and regulations issued pursuant thereto. BATFE has ruled that the use of a metal plate with a polymer receiver needs to be done in such a manner that the metal place can not be removed without destroying the receiver.
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"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001). Last edited by Quiet; 10-03-2016 at 6:38 AM.. |
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And, generally, 'researching the legality' puts this into the How CA Laws Affect Me realm, so moved.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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So if you VolRrg an Ar-15 pistol as single shot, and later convert, will you run into issues later trying to register as a RAW (single shot cannot be an AW)?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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NRA Life Member Glock Armorer Colt Armorer FFL 03 + COE |
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I thought about asking that on this forum, then I thought better about it BECAUSE THE REGULATIONS ARE NOT WRITTEN YET.
Thanks for giving them ideas though. You are not registering it as a semi auto though, I can tell you that! ------------- So, I suggest you build and enjoy your 80% single shot pistol. What you do from that moment (put on central registry, wait to do that, don't wait, mark it, don't mark it, serialize it, hang it from your back bumper like truck nuts) is on you to prepare as best you think you can for the regulations that have not been released yet. Prep accordingly (to YOUR thinking) |
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As far as. The manufacture name, does it a have to be the persons full name? Or could it be "Johns manufacturing" or "Steve's Machining?
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Selling lots of Pistol brass, lots of 38 and 44 mag! http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...4#post15935994 |
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If you manufactured it as an individual it needs to be your real name. If you're acting for a trust I think you use the trust name, if you're an 07 you use that name.
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Building AR from stripped lower before 2017 and registering as AW
So I bought a stripped lower in anticipation of the new laws, which I plan to complete this year and register as an AW next year.
My question: How do I prove that it met the requirements of an assault weapon before January 1, 2017. In other words, my DROS for the lower states it as only lower, not containing the "evil" features of an AW (semi-auto centerfire, bullet button, adjustable stock, etc.) I plan to have it fully built-out by the end of the year, but wondering if I should keep records of it having these features before the end of 2016. I know we're not sure what the exact registration process will look like, but I just want to make sure I won't have issues actually registering the weapon because I don't have official paperwork proving it met the definition of assault weapon before 2017. This question actually applies to anybody who has built a non-featureless AR from a stripped lower. Thanks! |
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What in the hell are you talking about?
No need to prove anything. Next year (the entire year) is the registration period. If you decide to register your AR as an Assault Weapon you will do that process on the (not up yet) CDOJ Website. I imagine it will be a simple form like my 11 RAWs. Name, address, model, serial number. THATs IT.....! I recommend you just WAIT and see. No hurry. Bob
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May the Bridges I burn light the way. Life Is Not About Waiting For The Storm To Pass - Its About Learning To Dance In The Rain. Fewer people are killed with all rifles each year (323 in 2011) than with shotguns (356), hammers and clubs (496), and hands and feet (728). |
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Let me remind you that before 2014 we had NO rifles or shotguns registered by CDOJ.
A vast, vast number (maybe 2 million) ARs in California are not even registered. I own dozens of pre 2014 long guns. "IF" I decide to register some as Assault Weapons next year via the new Website, I will. However I can also decide to Use a fixed stock, remove the flash hider and use a featureless grip and NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE concerning paperwork. Be well Bob For me personally it's stupid to register an AR as an assault Weapon. Too many transportation restrictions and Other limitations. All mine will be featureless.
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May the Bridges I burn light the way. Life Is Not About Waiting For The Storm To Pass - Its About Learning To Dance In The Rain. Fewer people are killed with all rifles each year (323 in 2011) than with shotguns (356), hammers and clubs (496), and hands and feet (728). |
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It's really rediculous to register an AR... What!...because some lawmakers that don't know anything about guns...consider it as an Assault Rifle. IT'S ONLY A RIFLE!!!! It's unconstitutional!!!! |
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(3) The registration shall contain a description of the firearm that identifies it uniquely, including all identification marks, the date the firearm was acquired, the name and address of the individual from whom, or business from which, the firearm was acquired, as well as the registrant’s full name, address, telephone number, date of birth, sex, height, weight, eye color, hair color, and California driver’s license number or California identification card number. Good luck. A lot of misinformation here on calguns. Just wait and see, though, because I believe there might be an issue registering builds (above), and, further, that converting from BB to featureless does not avoid registering as an AW. There are some 'nasties' who flame me about the latter, but I will have the last laugh. As to the former, it would be, in my opinion, manifestly unfair to builders not to permit them to register their builds as AW. One might also think it's in the interest of the State to maximize registrations to eventually reduce their numbers through attrition. If I were to build, I'd have everything purchased and built by the end of this year, or, at least, have lowers purchased by end of the year for sure, and for obvious reasons. Any lower purchased in 2017 for a build that you wish to register as an AW will likely result in a rejection of the registration and potential criminal charges for the felony of manufacturing an AW. Last edited by ifilef; 10-24-2016 at 1:59 AM.. |
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Submitted a VolReg....
...we'll see how it goes.
Actually, submitted 2, both for 80% soon-to-be RAWs. One was submitted as a "frame/receiver" only, and one was submitted as a complete pistol. Both were submitted as single-shot. If this works, I'll reply here with a walkthrough of what I did. EDIT ----------- Update: Received 2 emails from DOJ requesting pictures of the firearms in question. They specifically asked for 1 full length photo of each side, and one close up of the serial & engraving........wasn't expecting that.
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NRA Life Member Glock Armorer Colt Armorer FFL 03 + COE Last edited by target_shot; 10-24-2016 at 2:41 PM.. Reason: Update |
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I used CRIS. The program allows the "User" and "Admin" to both add comments.
I received an email to reopen my application because it was labeled incomplete. Low and behold, "Admin" entered a comment telling me to submit photos as outlined above. It looks like the online submission has an "upload file" area, that I presume is for photos. I'll take them when I get home tonight, and resubmit.
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NRA Life Member Glock Armorer Colt Armorer FFL 03 + COE |
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Submitted a VolReg....
Because I built them as single-shot. It was my understanding that it would be illegal to build myself a semi-auto AR-15 pistol, so I built it as single.
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NRA Life Member Glock Armorer Colt Armorer FFL 03 + COE Last edited by target_shot; 10-24-2016 at 10:29 AM.. |
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For the rifle there are no restrictions on manufacture other than SBR/AW etc. You can do 80% to BB'd AR legally with no single shot intermediate stage.
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Submitted a VolReg....
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Both are pistols - I see no reason to register an 80% as a rifle, given that if you register as a pistol you can convert to rifle, whereas the opposite is not true. Yes, will do for sure. Once everything is settled, Ill edit my main post with a writeup of how I went through the process. I have to say, when the DOJ has intimidated citizens who are in the process of trying to comply with new laws, willfully, it is a sad day for American liberty. When I hit send on the app, the idea of men in black coming to my doorstep was very real.
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NRA Life Member Glock Armorer Colt Armorer FFL 03 + COE Last edited by target_shot; 10-24-2016 at 11:43 AM.. |
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You said "one was submitted as a complete rifle" in the first post sso I thought one was a rifle.
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