Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > SPECIALTY FORUMS > Discussions of Faith
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-11-2018, 10:06 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 251
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default The Forbidden Tree

I'm not a Christian or Jew or Muslim. But I am a believer that, on the whole, ancient wisdom is superior to modern knowledge. I see them as largely metaphorical and not literal but I also believe metaphor and story to be a vastly superior way to pass on wisdom. So here's something to ponder & discuss. For those of you who have read D. Quinn's book, ISHMAEL, then this will sound familiar.

In the Genesis myth (myth = explaining story, not just a fanciful tale), Adam and Eve were forbidden to touch or eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. In rabbinic literature, as I understand it, "knowledge of good and evil" are often used as shorthand for "knowledge of everything, even up to what is good and evil" the same way that "40 days and 40 nights" is shorthand for "a very, very long time." After eating the fruit, Adam & Eve gained some knowledge (their nakedness -- vulnerability, perhaps?) and were cast out of the garden, cursed to live by farming and distance from God. We call this "The Fall of Man."

Yet we, as a culture, consider knowledge (science, for example) sacrosanct. Farmers, doctors and scientists are a sort of secular priesthood in our culture. But farming was the curse and the sin was a thirst for knowledge of all things. We tell the story of the dawn of agriculture and the age of science, not like it's "The Fall" but like it's "The Ascent." We tell a story of progress and achievement of our destiny but Genesis seems to tell a story of tragedy and the rejection of our destiny.

The theme is repeated in the stories of Cain and Abel. Cain, the farmer, kills his brother Abel, the shepherd. Again in Jacob and Esau. Jacob, the one who stays at home in the tents, steals the inheritance of his brother, the hunter, whom his father loved more (those darned city folk!). The author of Genesis has a consistent theme but it doesn't seem to me that we, as a culture, talk about it at all.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm become quite comfortable living in paradox and contradiction. I work in finance, do some light farming and enjoy reading and learning a lot. I go to the doctor, eat food grown from farms, drink wine and otherwise enjoy all the benefits that civilized life in the age of science can provide. And why not? It's not like we can go live in the forest eating nuts and berries. Heck, it's illegal anyway.

Yet, I puzzle over what it would mean to spit out the forbidden fruit -- to give up the endless search for knowledge of everything. To live life in full dependence on God (Allah, Wakan Tanka, whatever) and what it means for our culture that we so readily adopt with pride the very thing that the author of Genesis attempted to convey with shame.

So my question to the board is how do you see the Genesis myth. How do you enact your version of this story? How do our cultural values influence how we see the myth and how would you reinterpret the myth in our modern, American life?

No right or wrong answers here -- just looking for good, though-provoking discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-11-2018, 1:28 PM
mossy's Avatar
mossy mossy is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: equestria
Posts: 6,364
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post

So my question to the board is how do you see the Genesis myth.

.
God left 2 children and a devious talking snake alone in a house with a burning stove after telling the kids not to touch the amazingly awesome burning stove. They do what ignorant kids do and touch the stove because they are dumb kids. God comes back and kicks the kids out of the house for touching the stove then because he is a loving God he decides all future generations of humans need to be punished because the 2 original kids touched that stove.

And, no...i don't believe any of it.
__________________
best troll thread in calguns history
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=406739



Quote:
Originally Posted by waterfern View Post
Not at all. Trump is a loser and will lose amazingly on Tuesday. It's going to be so big, we are all going to be sick and tired of how much he loses on Tuesday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Nah, no sense in replying to the personal attacks/baiting.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-12-2018, 8:34 AM
louie louie is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Los Angeles County
Posts: 884
iTrader: 29 / 100%
Default

The moral of the story, "Avoid talking snakes at all costs"! I have dealt with many talking snakes in work enviroments and they never give you anything but grief!
P.S. Snakes that rattle are also to be avoided.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-13-2018, 5:29 PM
TrailerparkTrash's Avatar
TrailerparkTrash TrailerparkTrash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DPRK- Democratic People's Republic of Koreafornia
Posts: 2,281
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Rattlers taste good! We just had one for Hors d'oeuvres today!
__________________


My views:

-I hate being bipolar its awesome.

-Life member, NRA
-Hold my beer. Watch this.
-Trump.
-ΙΧΘΥΣ <><
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-13-2018, 5:35 PM
DoubleA DoubleA is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 354
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

IBZJ and “tastes like chicken”!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-15-2018, 8:49 AM
Garand Hunter Garand Hunter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 286
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

You wiped out everything to consider when you wrote " in the Genesis myth " in the 2nd paragraph. Genesis IS NOT a myth. I have no further comment.

Psalm 1
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:01 PM
sfpcservice's Avatar
sfpcservice sfpcservice is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Suisun City
Posts: 1,456
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mossy View Post
God left 2 children and a devious talking snake alone in a house with a burning stove after telling the kids not to touch the amazingly awesome burning stove. They do what ignorant kids do and touch the stove because they are dumb kids. God comes back and kicks the kids out of the house for touching the stove then because he is a loving God he decides all future generations of humans need to be punished because the 2 original kids touched that stove.

And, no...i don't believe any of it.
What do you believe?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-15-2018, 1:55 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 251
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garand Hunter View Post
You wiped out everything to consider when you wrote " in the Genesis myth " in the 2nd paragraph. Genesis IS NOT a myth. I have no further comment.

Psalm 1
You're funny.

From Google:
Myth, noun:
1. a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events."

Of course it's a myth. Even if you believe it to be factually true (history in the modern sense), it is still a myth. But since it is not modern history, you're missing out on a lot of depth if you believe it to be factually true. That is, of course, just my opinion.

So I'm guessing that you take it at face-value with no deeper complexity than that?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-15-2018, 2:36 PM
Kokopelli's Avatar
Kokopelli Kokopelli is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: "the drop edge of yonder"
Posts: 2,135
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default Take God at His word

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post

Adam and Eve were forbidden to touch or eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
That was the beginning of error. Adam & Eve’s error.

In Genesis 2:17 God told the man, “But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat...”. Nothing was said about TOUCH.

Fast Forward to Genesis 3:3 and Eve says, “...God has said, ‘you shall not eat from it or touch it..’” to the serpent. Why did she add “touch it”? When Adam received the command, did he misinform Eve? Did Adam “elaborate” to stress the point to Eve? We do not know. But we do know that it is wrong to add or take away from The Word of God.

A couple of reference verses...

Deuteronomy 4:2 2Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 32See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

Revelation 22:18-19 18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
__________________
“If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth.” - Ronald Reagan
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-15-2018, 4:12 PM
mossy's Avatar
mossy mossy is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: equestria
Posts: 6,364
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfpcservice View Post
What do you believe?
I'm a buddhist, I dont believe in the idea of "original sin" and a god punishing all of humanity for the actions of 2 people.

Humans are not born evil and sinful, we are born ignorant. Some choose to seek out and follow the correct path while others choose to delight in their ignorance and remain in the cycle of Samara.
__________________
best troll thread in calguns history
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=406739



Quote:
Originally Posted by waterfern View Post
Not at all. Trump is a loser and will lose amazingly on Tuesday. It's going to be so big, we are all going to be sick and tired of how much he loses on Tuesday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Nah, no sense in replying to the personal attacks/baiting.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-15-2018, 5:52 PM
RAMCLAP's Avatar
RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 1,986
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mossy View Post
I'm a buddhist, I dont believe in the idea of "original sin" and a god punishing all of humanity for the actions of 2 people.

Humans are not born evil and sinful, we are born ignorant. Some choose to seek out and follow the correct path while others choose to delight in their ignorance and remain in the cycle of Samara.
This is most incorrect. Babies only care about themselves. As they grow they will continue in this way until it is corrected out of them. They lie, chat and steal until they are completely taught not to. It is perfectly natural for humans to be bad. Unless there is anoth path pointed out to them they do not know there is another path. Therefore, humans are born evil.
__________________
John 2:5
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-16-2018, 9:08 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 251
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
This is most incorrect. Babies only care about themselves. As they grow they will continue in this way until it is corrected out of them. They lie, chat and steal until they are completely taught not to. It is perfectly natural for humans to be bad. Unless there is anoth path pointed out to them they do not know there is another path. Therefore, humans are born evil.
If that were true, then humans wouldn't be social creatures. We'd all live as hermits, either attacking or mating (or mating then attacking, or attacking then mating) with little in between. But here we are, as tribal and cooperative as ever. Babies are selfish little creatures, for sure. But they're surprisingly cooperative and empathetic as well. I don't think our nature lies in one extreme or the other. We are all squarely both at the same time.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:09 AM
billvau's Avatar
billvau billvau is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Norcal mountains
Posts: 482
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
This is most incorrect. Babies only care about themselves. As they grow they will continue in this way until it is corrected out of them. They lie, chat and steal until they are completely taught not to. It is perfectly natural for humans to be bad. Unless there is anoth path pointed out to them they do not know there is another path. Therefore, humans are born evil.
Nothing worse than a baby that "chats" too much! I know what you meant, but it made me smile!

God bless,
Bill
__________________
Pastor Bill

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:42 AM
RAMCLAP's Avatar
RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 1,986
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
If that were true, then humans wouldn't be social creatures. We'd all live as hermits, either attacking or mating (or mating then attacking, or attacking then mating) with little in between. But here we are, as tribal and cooperative as ever. Babies are selfish little creatures, for sure. But they're surprisingly cooperative and empathetic as well. I don't think our nature lies in one extreme or the other. We are all squarely both at the same time.
No. We quickly break down into tribes. The strongest meanest one always becomes the leader. And that tribe looks to dominate all of the other tribes. The Europeans did the same after they had made civilizations in different ways. But when they came to the new world it was quickly recognized in the natives. Chiefs striving to be chiefs took war parties to savage other tribes and back and forth. Humans don't have a good track record. We are quite evil.
__________________
John 2:5
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:44 AM
RAMCLAP's Avatar
RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 1,986
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Nothing worse than a baby that "chats" too much! I know what you meant, but it made me smile!

God bless,
Bill
Yeah. Fat fingers and auto correct are a bad team.
__________________
John 2:5
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:56 AM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,582
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

It was never about knowledge. It was about who should make decisions. The tree was a symbol of rulership and ownership. In the same way the tree was not man's to touch, much less eat from, so was rulership not man's. The point being that the "knowledge" was not that they would know anything more than they already did, it was that they would make independent decisions as to morality. The "nakedness" was shame, because they had never had a reason to be ashamed prior to that. God wasn't upset they were no clothing before this. They decided nakedness was shameful. Eating of the tree in the garden was usurpation of authority.
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-17-2018, 8:34 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 251
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
It was never about knowledge. It was about who should make decisions. The tree was a symbol of rulership and ownership. In the same way the tree was not man's to touch, much less eat from, so was rulership not man's. The point being that the "knowledge" was not that they would know anything more than they already did, it was that they would make independent decisions as to morality. The "nakedness" was shame, because they had never had a reason to be ashamed prior to that. God wasn't upset they were no clothing before this. They decided nakedness was shameful. Eating of the tree in the garden was usurpation of authority.
That is a very top-down, authoritarian point of view. Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:36 PM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,582
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
That is a very top-down, authoritarian point of view. Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Jeremiah 10:23
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:45 PM
nedro nedro is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,320
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
If that were true, then humans wouldn't be social creatures. We'd all live as hermits, either attacking or mating (or mating then attacking, or attacking then mating) with little in between. But here we are, as tribal and cooperative as ever. Babies are selfish little creatures, for sure. But they're surprisingly cooperative and empathetic as well. I don't think our nature lies in one extreme or the other. We are all squarely both at the same time.
And thus is born the, "Millennial".
__________________
Here in California; Law abiding Citizens are simply Useful Idiots and Criminals are a Protected Species.
<nedro>
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-17-2018, 1:59 PM
Wordupmybrotha's Avatar
Wordupmybrotha Wordupmybrotha is offline
From anotha motha
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 3,589
iTrader: 47 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
If that were true, then humans wouldn't be social creatures. We'd all live as hermits, either attacking or mating (or mating then attacking, or attacking then mating) with little in between. But here we are, as tribal and cooperative as ever. Babies are selfish little creatures, for sure. But they're surprisingly cooperative and empathetic as well. I don't think our nature lies in one extreme or the other. We are all squarely both at the same time.
Humans were created in the image of God, so we share his characteristics such as desire for fellowship and relationships. Original sin didn't make humans totally evil, but it corrupted what was good.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-17-2018, 2:03 PM
Wordupmybrotha's Avatar
Wordupmybrotha Wordupmybrotha is offline
From anotha motha
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 3,589
iTrader: 47 / 100%
Default

My take on eating from the tree is man's desire to be greater than God. A creation having the arrogance to be greater than the creator. Thinking he's better and knows better than the creator. That's still our defining struggle even to this day.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-18-2018, 7:34 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 251
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
My take on eating from the tree is man's desire to be greater than God. A creation having the arrogance to be greater than the creator. Thinking he's better and knows better than the creator. That's still our defining struggle even to this day.
No dispute there.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-18-2018, 7:39 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 251
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nedro View Post
And thus is born the, "Millennial".
So many assumptions...
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-18-2018, 8:06 AM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,582
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
My take on eating from the tree is man's desire to be greater than God. A creation having the arrogance to be greater than the creator. Thinking he's better and knows better than the creator. That's still our defining struggle even to this day.
This is the entire point of the bible. It's a court case. Genesis 1 and 2 are where man (and satan) decided they knew how to rule as well as the creator. Most of the rest is the prosecution's evidence proving they are wrong. Once the case is settled beyond doubt, Armageddon. After that, 1000 years where the creator rules through his son. After, all who still disagree have no footing to further argue and will no longer exist.

The real issue is the question raised. Namely, who will rule best. Satan first raised the question about rulership, and Job indicates he was able to take his defiance directly to the creator's throne. He is very influential. Consider this: angels saw the creation of the universe, and Satan was still influential enough to convince many angels to defect.

When man defected, he could simply have destroyed all those who opposed, but the question would not have been settled. If even one entity still had doubts, the question remains, and this will be repeated if not resolved.

All we see around us is the oral arguments and evidence being presented by both sides. I don't think we have much longer before the gavel comes down.
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-18-2018, 10:45 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 251
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
This is the entire point of the bible. It's a court case. Genesis 1 and 2 are where man (and satan) decided they knew how to rule as well as the creator. Most of the rest is the prosecution's evidence proving they are wrong. Once the case is settled beyond doubt, Armageddon. After that, 1000 years where the creator rules through his son. After, all who still disagree have no footing to further argue and will no longer exist.

The real issue is the question raised. Namely, who will rule best. Satan first raised the question about rulership, and Job indicates he was able to take his defiance directly to the creator's throne. He is very influential. Consider this: angels saw the creation of the universe, and Satan was still influential enough to convince many angels to defect.

When man defected, he could simply have destroyed all those who opposed, but the question would not have been settled. If even one entity still had doubts, the question remains, and this will be repeated if not resolved.

All we see around us is the oral arguments and evidence being presented by both sides. I don't think we have much longer before the gavel comes down.
You're definitely right about the "heavenly court" motif. Canaanite mythology has the same motif as does Greek, Roman & many other mediterranean religions. But keep in mind that the Hebrews weren't even monotheists yet -- recognizing the existence of other gods quite readily though themselves favoring only one -- YHWH.

But it wasn't until after the Babylonian exile that the Hebrews/Judeans saw Satan as an opposing force against God. Rather, at the time of Genesis, he was the prosecuting attorney, not the leader of some rebel faction or organized criminal gang. In other words, Satan conceded authority to God, the judge, and simply presented his case to make sure it was all working the way it was supposed to. He was there to challenge & test God's assumptions and the Hebrews' commitment to him, not challenge God's authority directly. After all, if God could be usurped, then he wouldn't have been God. Satan served God in this court. He wasn't the friend of God's people since he was always making his case against them. But he was a servant of God just the same.

After the Judean priesthood spent some time in exile in Babylon, they were influenced by Zoroastrians and changed their belief system a bit. Now (looking at the latter half of Isaiah and the postexilic prophets), Satan was completely separate from the heavenly court. He was a "fallen angel" or dark force in the world & at war with him.

But the author of Genesis would have had no concept of this dualistic spirituality. Genesis was written at least several hundred years before the exile. And most of what we read from the exile wasn't written for a quite while after that.

Genesis was written under the influence of the Canaanites. Canaanites were the ones who built the Solomonic temple, after all, and they readily intermarried with the invading Hebrews after the warring tensions calmed down, as the pre-exilic prophets complained about all the time. There was so much mixing and borrowing of cultures that some temples were built to "YHWH and his Asherah" (God + his female consort). There are plenty of other examples of Canaanite mixing (Daniel's apocalyptic vision, later is actually an older Canaanite tale of Ba'al and Yam's great battle, fertility cult practices all over the place at the time) but that has filled many books & I couldn't hope to do it justice.

I'll summarize by saying that a single, coherent theme across the entire Bible about a great spiritual warfare might be visible to you but you're going to have to twist the words of the authors quite a bit since many of them never had such a perspective themselves. Some of them didn't even agree with each other (the book of Judges vs Kings, Kings vs Chronicles, etc.).

I suppose you could say that God still intended what you think, regardless of what the human authors thought. But that's a tougher case to make.

**Edit**
I should add that Ba'al & Yam aren't the Canaanite equivalent of God & Satan. Ba'al is the son of El (God, often represented as a bull). Yam is the challenger in the court (often represented as a dragon). Ba'al was usually in human form, though sometimes he was wheat, barley or some other grain that died and rose again each year. El always remained the chief deity but Ba'al, being the prince (and staple food crop), was more favored. Ba'al and Yam fought for the right to rule, as princes often do. But it was always up to El.

The Bible says we were made in God's image. I became convinced long ago that we make God in our image. Again, just my opinion. Believe whatever you want.

Last edited by CVShooter; 05-18-2018 at 10:57 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:56 AM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,582
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
You're definitely right about the "heavenly court" motif. Canaanite mythology has the same motif as does Greek, Roman & many other mediterranean religions. But keep in mind that the Hebrews weren't even monotheists yet -- recognizing the existence of other gods quite readily though themselves favoring only one -- YHWH.

But it wasn't until after the Babylonian exile that the Hebrews/Judeans saw Satan as an opposing force against God. Rather, at the time of Genesis, he was the prosecuting attorney, not the leader of some rebel faction or organized criminal gang. In other words, Satan conceded authority to God, the judge, and simply presented his case to make sure it was all working the way it was supposed to. He was there to challenge & test God's assumptions and the Hebrews' commitment to him, not challenge God's authority directly. After all, if God could be usurped, then he wouldn't have been God. Satan served God in this court. He wasn't the friend of God's people since he was always making his case against them. But he was a servant of God just the same.

After the Judean priesthood spent some time in exile in Babylon, they were influenced by Zoroastrians and changed their belief system a bit. Now (looking at the latter half of Isaiah and the postexilic prophets), Satan was completely separate from the heavenly court. He was a "fallen angel" or dark force in the world & at war with him.

But the author of Genesis would have had no concept of this dualistic spirituality. Genesis was written at least several hundred years before the exile. And most of what we read from the exile wasn't written for a quite while after that.

Genesis was written under the influence of the Canaanites. Canaanites were the ones who built the Solomonic temple, after all, and they readily intermarried with the invading Hebrews after the warring tensions calmed down, as the pre-exilic prophets complained about all the time. There was so much mixing and borrowing of cultures that some temples were built to "YHWH and his Asherah" (God + his female consort). There are plenty of other examples of Canaanite mixing (Daniel's apocalyptic vision, later is actually an older Canaanite tale of Ba'al and Yam's great battle, fertility cult practices all over the place at the time) but that has filled many books & I couldn't hope to do it justice.

I'll summarize by saying that a single, coherent theme across the entire Bible about a great spiritual warfare might be visible to you but you're going to have to twist the words of the authors quite a bit since many of them never had such a perspective themselves. Some of them didn't even agree with each other (the book of Judges vs Kings, Kings vs Chronicles, etc.).

I suppose you could say that God still intended what you think, regardless of what the human authors thought. But that's a tougher case to make.

**Edit**
I should add that Ba'al & Yam aren't the Canaanite equivalent of God & Satan. Ba'al is the son of El (God, often represented as a bull). Yam is the challenger in the court (often represented as a dragon). Ba'al was usually in human form, though sometimes he was wheat, barley or some other grain that died and rose again each year. El always remained the chief deity but Ba'al, being the prince (and staple food crop), was more favored. Ba'al and Yam fought for the right to rule, as princes often do. But it was always up to El.

The Bible says we were made in God's image. I became convinced long ago that we make God in our image. Again, just my opinion. Believe whatever you want.
I buy absolutely none of this.
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-19-2018, 12:01 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 251
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Njineermike - no worries on my end. It would take you years of study to verify all that anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-19-2018, 12:39 PM
billvau's Avatar
billvau billvau is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Norcal mountains
Posts: 482
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Njineermike - no worries on my end. It would take you years of study to verify all that anyway.
I agree with Njineermike. And, I've done decades of biblical study. Sorry, but your biblical interpretation isn't Christian, i.e. isn't correct.
__________________
Pastor Bill

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-19-2018, 1:26 PM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,582
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Njineermike - no worries on my end. It would take you years of study to verify all that anyway.
I've already done years of study, which is why I buy none of it.
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-20-2018, 7:55 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 251
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

The Bible is a good start. Lots more out there.

Most of the people I studied under, both here in the US and in Israel were/are Christians. They kept the faith. I didn’t. But they wouldn’t disagree with any of the cultural and historical context I gave you. Not a bit.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-21-2018, 12:20 AM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,582
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
The Bible is a good start. Lots more out there.

Most of the people I studied under, both here in the US and in Israel were/are Christians. They kept the faith. I didn’t. But they wouldn’t disagree with any of the cultural and historical context I gave you. Not a bit.
That's nice. I've also seen valid references that say the exact opposite.
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-21-2018, 12:43 AM
johnthomas's Avatar
johnthomas johnthomas is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Monterey County
Posts: 6,548
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

The Jewish version of creation, the flood and the second coming was copied from what was taught way before their religion. Animals live for the moment, humans live to believe they will exist in one form or another for eternity. I suspect, just like any other living creature or plant, we live, we multiply to keep the species going and then we die. One thing is certain, we all will die, if there is an afterlife, we will find out, if not, the lights goes out and nature takes care of the rest.
__________________
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 4:02 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.