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  #1  
Old 08-21-2017, 4:45 PM
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Question Yet Another PPT Thread

Oy! So I've been looking through Calguns and CA laws, and a half a pot of coffee, two bathroom breaks and a dinner break later, and I still can't figure this out.

I have an antique firearm, a handgun manufactured between 1890 and 1892, up for sale. I originally listed it as will ship, then I heard from an FFL, and a couple of the ubiquitous "Guys who heard it from an FFL", that any CA private sale has to be face to face at the same dealer.

Now I've read on CG that it's fine to ship to an FFL who will then treat it as a dealer sale, but if you specifically call it a PPT then it has to be in person.

What's the practical difference between a shipped gun and an in-person PPT?

Isn't the same background/DROS/paperwork routine followed in both cases?

I've also heard conflicting opinions as to whether or not C&R and antique firearms are exempt. The FAQ at

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#14

seems to say that they are, but the way it's worded they could just be saying they are exempt from the fees.

Quote:
Can I sell a gun directly to another person (i.e. non-dealer)?
Generally, no. This type of transaction is referred to as a “private party transfer” and must be conducted with both parties, in person, through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The purchaser (and seller if the purchaser is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request but may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting the transfer. For example:

a. For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.

b. For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of up to $10.00 for each additional firearm.

"Antique firearms," as defined in section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement. For additional exceptions, refer to Penal Code sections 27850 through 27966.

(Pen. Code, § 27545.)
Are C&R and antique firearms exempt from the in-person PPT requirement?

Another opinion was that antique firearms can be sent directly to an individual, e.g. to his home. Now just knowing California, that sounds like crazy talk, especially concerning a handgun. Is this the case for intrastate person to person sales?
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  #2  
Old 08-21-2017, 5:18 PM
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If it was made before 01-01-1899, then CA laws allows it to be transferred without the use of a CA FFL dealer due to being an "antique firearm".

PC 27545 requires firearms to be transferred through CA FFL dealer.
PC 16520(d)(12) exempts unloaded antique firearms from being transferred through a CA FFL dealer.



Penal Code 16170
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, “antique firearm” has the same meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.

18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Penal Code 16520
(a) As used in this part, “firearm” means a device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of an explosion or other form of combustion.
(d) As used in the following provisions, “firearm” does not include an unloaded antique firearm:
(1) Subdivisions (a) and (c) of Section 16730.
(2) Section 16550.
(3) Section 16960.
(4) Section 17310.
(5) Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 26350) of Division 5 of Title 4.
(6) Chapter 7 (commencing with Section 26400) of Division 5 of Title 4.
(7) Sections 26500 to 26588, inclusive.
(8) Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive.
(9) Section 27510.
(10) Section 27530.
(11) Section 27540.
(12) Section 27545.
(13) Sections 27555 to 27585, inclusive.
(14) Sections 29010 to 29150, inclusive.
(15) Section 25135.
(16) Section 29180.
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  #3  
Old 08-21-2017, 6:02 PM
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Thumbs up

Ah, the familiar Quiet response, well informed and referenced. Thanks!

I'm holdin' an H&R top break revolver chambered in .32 S&W, so it looks like the door-door's a no-no.

I've been reading smak28's thread, apparently the only practical difference for a non face to face sale is if you use the term "PPT", and the fees for the buyer. Seems there's basically a different box checked by the dealer, which changes the game. So that means I can ship anything that's legal to own to an FFL, just don't say "PPT" out loud, and it's just on the buyer to find a willing FFL. I can live with that.
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  #4  
Old 08-21-2017, 7:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrOrange View Post
...
Now I've read on CG that it's fine to ship to an FFL who will then treat it as a dealer sale, but if you specifically call it a PPT then it has to be in person.
Not quite, if you want it to BE a CA PPT, then it has to be done in person. It really does not matter what you call it. Yes, sometimes you get silly responses if you use the wrong term since if it is shipped it is a private sale/transfer.

Quote:
What's the practical difference between a shipped gun and an in-person PPT?
The fees are limited with a CA PPT, as well handguns are exempt from the certified list for a CA PPT. In addition, if the buyer is denied, it can be returned (with 4473 paperwork) to the seller with no additional fee.

A FFL could do a CA PPT as a dealer sale, but then if the buyer is denied they have to pay the DROS fee to get it back. Basically, a bad idea, but possible. If the seller is leaving the area and it is likely that the buyer will be denied, it is a better way to do the transfer since if the buyer is denied, then the firearm has to be returned to the seller and if that can't be done, it has to be turned over to the police by CA PC.

Quote:
Isn't the same background/DROS/paperwork routine followed in both cases?
Close, there is more paperwork when it is a CA PPT, mainly the seller's DROS copy and signature. If the buyer is denied, then a background check is done on the seller.
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  #5  
Old 08-22-2017, 7:10 AM
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Thumbs up

Thanks, I can use the clarification.

Nevada's lookin' better and better...
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I would advise violence. - M. Gandhi
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gitcho ammo
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  #6  
Old 08-22-2017, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MrOrange View Post
Ah, the familiar Quiet response, well informed and referenced. Thanks!

I'm holdin' an H&R top break revolver chambered in .32 S&W, so it looks like the door-door's a no-no.

I've been reading smak28's thread, apparently the only practical difference for a non face to face sale is if you use the term "PPT", and the fees for the buyer. Seems there's basically a different box checked by the dealer, which changes the game. So that means I can ship anything that's legal to own to an FFL, just don't say "PPT" out loud, and it's just on the buyer to find a willing FFL. I can live with that.
Since it was made before 1899, it's an antique firearm (period) and can be shipped to his door.

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

If it was newer, and a replica of an old gun, and muzzle loader or ammo no longer available, it would also be an antique firearm

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
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  #7  
Old 08-22-2017, 1:52 PM
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I'm curious as to whether a firearm can become antique to to (B)(ii), and later become a firearm again when ammo production starts back up.
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  #8  
Old 08-22-2017, 2:54 PM
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Yeah, and then there's the "What's 'readily available' mean?" question.

On the antique, it makes sense that in (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system), "including" doesn't mean "limited to". I guess that's why all the criminals are using deadly untraceable antique ghost-like guns that they can have shipped to their girlfriends' door.
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I would advise violence. - M. Gandhi
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  #9  
Old 08-30-2017, 1:00 PM
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I think you'd be hard pressed to convince DOJ that ANY reproduction firearm that fires a metallic cartridge is an antique under that definition. My DOJ rep has told me it only applies to muzzle loading firearms despite what the language says. I suspect that language was crafted before the niche market for obsolete ammo developed. Some obsolete ammo is very difficult to find, but much of it is available over the internet, at least on a seasonal basis. And in my (limited) experience, you won't find a lot of repo firearms made for the really obscure obsolete ammo.
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Old 08-30-2017, 1:40 PM
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It doesn't need to be a real reproduction. If it's a firearm that was made from 1890 to 1910, it could fit that category without being what most people consider a reproduction, and it could be chambered in a caliber that hasn't been available in decades.

This is also ATF, not CA DOJ.
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Old 08-30-2017, 3:19 PM
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You make an interesting point about post 1899 firearms using obsolete cartridges, but where does the 1910 date come into play?

I will admit that whole ATF/DOJ thing confuses me at times. On the one hand ATF looks to the State agency to administer most firearm stuff within their State. On the other hand I've heard the argument that the State can't supersede federal law, but that's clearly not the case as CA does it all the time. The difference here may be that there isn't an adopted CA statute that overrides the Fed law.

I suppose it may come down to what you can talk a seller into doing, but as I said in my previous post, my DOJ rep tells me I have to DROS anything that isn't older than 1899 that fires metallic cartridges. Might not be the first time DOJ has overstepped their bounds but its the best I have to work from. I'd be interested to hear from other FFLs if they would sell a metallic cartridge post-1899 firearm of any kind as an antique.
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  #12  
Old 08-30-2017, 3:38 PM
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A FFL doesn't have to log a PPT firearm into his bound book. If you ship it to an FFL for delivery he has to treat it differently. He takes possession of the gun logs it into his book. The buyer shows up and he does a DROS for $25 (he doesn't get the $10 state fee). Of course he does charge you $25-150 for his services - receiving the gun, logging into his book, calling the buyer, doing the DROS, logging the disposition of the gun into his bound book.
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Old 08-30-2017, 4:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nardo1895 View Post
You make an interesting point about post 1899 firearms using obsolete cartridges, but where does the 1910 date come into play?

I will admit that whole ATF/DOJ thing confuses me at times. On the one hand ATF looks to the State agency to administer most firearm stuff within their State. On the other hand I've heard the argument that the State can't supersede federal law, but that's clearly not the case as CA does it all the time. The difference here may be that there isn't an adopted CA statute that overrides the Fed law.

I suppose it may come down to what you can talk a seller into doing, but as I said in my previous post, my DOJ rep tells me I have to DROS anything that isn't older than 1899 that fires metallic cartridges. Might not be the first time DOJ has overstepped their bounds but its the best I have to work from. I'd be interested to hear from other FFLs if they would sell a metallic cartridge post-1899 firearm of any kind as an antique.
"Reproduction" makes most people think modern repro which is probably in a caliber that's available. 1910 isn't any special date, just an example.

CA might have it's own definition of antique firearm, I don't know.

State law and federal law can be different. Whichever is stricter controls.
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I will never buy another Spikes Tactical item, as I have a 5.45 marked barrel from them with a 5.56 bore that keyholed at 25 yards, and they wouldn't replace it.

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  #14  
Old 08-30-2017, 5:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
CA might have it's own definition of antique firearm, I don't know.
CA has at least three defintions of "antique firearm". [PC 16170]

Which definition is used, depends on which CA laws is being referenced.

As applied to CA assault weapons laws, "antique firearm" means any firearm made before 01-01-1899. [PC 16170(a)]

As applied to CA generally prohibited weapons (DD, MG, SBR, SBS, etc) laws, "antique firearm" is a firearm that does not use fixed ammunition that was made before 1899 (includes replicas of those firearms made after 1898) and a firearm that was made before 1899 that uses fixed ammunition that is not commercially available. [PC 16170(c)]

As applied CA firearm transfer laws and CA unloaded open carry laws, "antique firearm" means the same as Federal laws. [PC 16170(b)]




Penal Code 16170
(a) As used in Sections 30515 and 30530, “antique firearm” means any firearm manufactured before January 1, 1899.
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, “antique firearm” has the same meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(c) As used in Section 17700, “antique firearm” means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898. This includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
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Last edited by Quiet; 08-30-2017 at 5:44 PM..
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  #15  
Old 08-30-2017, 5:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
CA has three defintions of "antique firearm". [PC 16170]
...
To be more accurate, you should have said "at least three definitions". Just because the CA PC says something does not mean that the CA DOJ doesn't have another definition that they use in order to go after people. There are numerous laws which say one thing, but the CA DOJ says yet another.
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Old 08-30-2017, 5:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
To be more accurate, you should have said "at least three definitions". Just because the CA PC says something does not mean that the CA DOJ doesn't have another definition that they use in order to go after people. There are numerous laws which say one thing, but the CA DOJ says yet another.
copy that, edited above post
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Old 08-30-2017, 7:23 PM
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Originally Posted by M1NM View Post
A FFL doesn't have to log a PPT firearm into his bound book. If you ship it to an FFL for delivery he has to treat it differently. He takes possession of the gun logs it into his book. The buyer shows up and he does a DROS for $25 (he doesn't get the $10 state fee). Of course he does charge you $25-150 for his services - receiving the gun, logging into his book, calling the buyer, doing the DROS, logging the disposition of the gun into his bound book.
An FFL Abosolutely must log a PPT into the book. We are holding it for 10 to possibly 30 days.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:16 PM
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A FFL doesn't have to log a PPT firearm into his bound book.
I hope you are not a FFL, at least not in CA.

In a free state where there is no waiting period and the background check comes back approved or the person is exempt, then the FFL does not have to log it (which I think is foolish). If the background check is delayed and the FFL holds the firearm, it has to be logged.
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Old 08-31-2017, 8:18 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
I hope you are not a FFL, at least not in CA.

In a free state where there is no waiting period and the background check comes back approved or the person is exempt, then the FFL does not have to log it (which I think is foolish). If the background check is delayed and the FFL holds the firearm, it has to be logged.
In a truly "free state" the use of an FFL is not needed for a private transfer.
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Old 08-31-2017, 9:03 AM
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In a truly "free state" the use of an FFL is not needed for a private transfer.
Not required, but it can be done if the seller wants to ensure that the buyer is not a prohibited person.
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Old 08-31-2017, 9:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
CA has at least three defintions of "antique firearm". [PC 16170]

Which definition is used, depends on which CA laws is being referenced.

As applied to CA assault weapons laws, "antique firearm" means any firearm made before 01-01-1899. [PC 16170(a)]

As applied to CA generally prohibited weapons (DD, MG, SBR, SBS, etc) laws, "antique firearm" is a firearm that does not use fixed ammunition that was made before 1899 (includes replicas of those firearms made after 1898) and a firearm that was made before 1899 that uses fixed ammunition that is not commercially available. [PC 16170(c)]

As applied CA firearm transfer laws and CA unloaded open carry laws, "antique firearm" means the same as Federal laws. [PC 16170(b)]




Penal Code 16170
(a) As used in Sections 30515 and 30530, “antique firearm” means any firearm manufactured before January 1, 1899.
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, “antique firearm” has the same meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(c) As used in Section 17700, “antique firearm” means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898. This includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
So for AW, breech loader, manufacture date is all that matters.

For NFA-ish, even if the feds consider it antique it may not be in the state eyes (for example, a short barreled Winchester 1873 in 44-40).

Speaking of NFA stuff, for non-AW firearms that the feds specifically exempt from NFA (I know some trapper model 1899+ lever actions have <16" barrels but the feds say aren't SBR), does the state see them as SBR?


I'm still curious as to whether there have been firearms that became antique, and then ammo production started again, and then became non-antique. I suspect it has happened at some point, but who knkows.
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  #22  
Old 08-31-2017, 10:13 AM
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Not required, but it can be done if the seller wants to ensure that the buyer is not a prohibited person.
Didn't Nevada's new law get shot down because the NICS folks said they were not going to run the data base for PPT's?

I thought it was something like this but not sure.
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Old 08-31-2017, 11:41 AM
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Didn't Nevada's new law get shot down because the NICS folks said they were not going to run the data base for PPT's?

I thought it was something like this but not sure.
It was a different issue. The law required the FFL to directly contact the NICS to do the background check, BUT in Nevada background checks are run by the State Department of Public Safety and that charges a fee. The law tried to bypass the normal background check process and the FBI said no.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/12080/...l-hank-berrien

A FFL can conduct a PPT, but it has to be done basically the same as a dealer transfer. There are some differences as documented in the BATF letter which details how the FFL is to process it, such as not having to log the firearm in unless they retain it. Personally, I log in any firearm which goes through my business.
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Last edited by kemasa; 08-31-2017 at 11:43 AM..
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Old 08-31-2017, 3:43 PM
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Quiet Quiet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
For NFA-ish, even if the feds consider it antique it may not be in the state eyes (for example, a short barreled Winchester 1873 in 44-40).

Speaking of NFA stuff, for non-AW firearms that the feds specifically exempt from NFA (I know some trapper model 1899+ lever actions have <16" barrels but the feds say aren't SBR), does the state see them as SBR?
CA laws exempts BATFE exempted C&R firearms from CA generally prohibited weapons (SBR/SBS) laws. [PC 17705(a)]

So, if the BATFE removed a C&R lever-action rifle from the NFA registry then it is also exempt from CA SBR laws.
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