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  #1  
Old 08-25-2017, 9:30 PM
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Default Kicked out after dealer refused to PPT - legality?

Long story short, I brought an AR complete lower receiver in to an FFL to do a PPT. The FFL fed me a bunch of crap about how he needed an Assault Weapons license to transfer this, its illegal, etc. I disagreed with him and they told me to do the transfer somewhere else.

No big deal, transferred at his competitor's across the freeway. And then bought a gun from them as well


Anyways, I began to question the legality of a dealer not doing the PPT on a completely legal firearm receiver. As far as I know, FFL's in CA are legally obligated to process all rifle PPT.


Thoughts?
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Old 08-25-2017, 9:53 PM
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Had that experience once. I was kicked out of a store (sellers choice) and told that the store had also called the DOJ and reported me and the seller. Lots of fun!

A real FFL, namely OC Armory (my choice) promptly did the PPT after we walked in. Perfectly legal. Just needed an FFL that wasn't a tard.

My thoughts?
An FFL is basically an extension of the ATF and .GOV and can act in accordance with their (FFL's) interpretation of the laws.
The ATF, IIRC says that FFL's are obligated to deny what they consider an illegal transfer. ie straw purchase etc

Ta Da!! probably legit for them to deny you
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  #3  
Old 08-25-2017, 10:59 PM
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The law says that you have to make the request in writing.

You can report it to the CA DOJ, but I would not count on them doing anything.
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:50 PM
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Some shops don't deal in black rifles....

With all the new laws, they just don't want the audit headache.....



Not to pick on you but we have had people rip into riflegear on the forum
Riflegear went so far as to pull their video footage and it showed the c guns member to be untrue....


Not saying you did anything wrong at the shop, but support a shop that wants your business.
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  #5  
Old 08-26-2017, 1:28 AM
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All and all isn't it up to the dealer to do a transfer or not? I've been told if you even look shady they'll tell you they can't do a transfer.

When I went in to get my first black rifle when I was 18 I was with my dad. My license at the time did not reflect my current address as I had just moved. Long story short they said I couldn't get it, my dad then said "well that's a good deal, I'll just buy it for myself" the dealer then interpreted this to be a straw purchase and told us both to leave.

In all reality I would have just gone back and bought another one once my new license arrived in the mail.

That actually set me off on buying an AR for a few years. I wasn't mad about the denial of me, it was about the fact they thought we would do something illegal, but aye, it's a business and they're allowed to practice however they see fit.
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Old 08-26-2017, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty621 View Post
All and all isn't it up to the dealer to do a transfer or not? I've been told if you even look shady they'll tell you they can't do a transfer.

When I went in to get my first black rifle when I was 18 I was with my dad. My license at the time did not reflect my current address as I had just moved. Long story short they said I couldn't get it, my dad then said "well that's a good deal, I'll just buy it for myself" the dealer then interpreted this to be a straw purchase and told us both to leave.

In all reality I would have just gone back and bought another one once my new license arrived in the mail.

That actually set me off on buying an AR for a few years. I wasn't mad about the denial of me, it was about the fact they thought we would do something illegal, but aye, it's a business and they're allowed to practice however they see fit.

This is the problem with customers right here. You were not denied your AR purchase. You just didn't or couldn't provide a government issued document to show your new address.

The FFL refused the transfer cause it was OBVIOUS your dad was trying to help YOU skirt the rules.

Not to be harsh because most customers are wrong on what is legal or not but it's clear you don't get what happened to you or why.
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Old 08-26-2017, 9:15 AM
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I do believe Federally, it is still legal for a parent to buy a firearm as a gift for their child...not a straw purchase. In California though you'd still have to transfer it later of course.......no problem.
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Old 08-26-2017, 9:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
This is the problem with customers right here. You were not denied your AR purchase. You just didn't or couldn't provide a government issued document to show your new address.

The FFL refused the transfer cause it was OBVIOUS your dad was trying to help YOU skirt the rules.

Not to be harsh because most customers are wrong on what is legal or not but it's clear you don't get what happened to you or why.


No he wasn't trying to help me at all, I understood why I was denied the ability to dros it. I stated that. My dad wanted the rifle for himself, so he wanted to buy it.

I don't think you're being harsh at all. I understand the laws. Straw purchases are illegal. He wasn't going to purchase the rifle then give it to me. He wanted to add it to his collection. I already had guns, just not an AR.

I get where the FFL was coming from, but as I said before, it's how he interpreted the situation and it's up to the business to practice as they see fit.
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Old 08-26-2017, 9:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBSONIC View Post
I do believe Federally, it is still legal for a parent to buy a firearm as a gift for their child...not a straw purchase. In California though you'd still have to transfer it later of course.......no problem.
Yes, parent can buy a gun and gift it to a child.

However when you are in the store, and the scenario plays out the way it did, a straw purchase can still be perceived and is still illegal under the circumstances.

A straw purchase can in fact take place between a Father and child if not done properly.
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  #10  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBSONIC View Post
I do believe Federally, it is still legal for a parent to buy a firearm as a gift for their child...not a straw purchase. In California though you'd still have to transfer it later of course.......no problem.
As a gift yes, to buy it for them and get paid back no.
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  #11  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Rusty621 View Post
No he wasn't trying to help me at all, I understood why I was denied the ability to dros it. I stated that. My dad wanted the rifle for himself, so he wanted to buy it.

I don't think you're being harsh at all. I understand the laws. Straw purchases are illegal. He wasn't going to purchase the rifle then give it to me. He wanted to add it to his collection. I already had guns, just not an AR.

I get where the FFL was coming from, but as I said before, it's how he interpreted the situation and it's up to the business to practice as they see fit.
It is what it APPEARED to be, not what it actually was. The FFL can only go on what it looks like to them, not what it really is, no matter what you say.
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
However when you are in the store, and the scenario plays out the way it did, a straw purchase can still be perceived and is still illegal under the circumstances.
No, what it really is determines whether it is illegal or not, not what it appears to be, but the FFL can only go on what it appears to be. So assuming what was said was true, it would not have been illegal, but the FFL is not a mind reader nor do they have a crystal ball, so their only real choice is to deny it.
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:10 AM
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CaDoj and the ATF have dealers scared for their livelihood.

Almost all the gun stores in my three county region have closed. Paperwork has tripled, laws have doubled and the amount of weapons they can even get from distributers is so limited now its ridiculous.

My local FFL is a great friend Ive known for years, and he is shutting down by spring to get out before the new laws.
I get it, its too much of a hassle to jump through hoops.

But in reality you can't blame a FFL that won't transfer, blame a populous that has made it a point to not ban together to out vote gun restrictions. Blame the people who are lining up to register, then bragging about it online.

Its a shame, but the gunners in this state did it to themselves.

Counting down the days until I file my own FFL back in America .
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Old 08-26-2017, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
No, what it really is determines whether it is illegal or not, not what it appears to be, but the FFL can only go on what it appears to be. So assuming what was said was true, it would not have been illegal, but the FFL is not a mind reader nor do they have a crystal ball, so their only real choice is to deny it.
Thats pretty much what i meant without going into detail and trying to assume the situation the person i was responding to was in.

You did clarify better than i did.
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  #15  
Old 08-27-2017, 11:25 PM
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So what was the make and model of your complete lower. I might have the same answer for you as your dealer if your lower was on either the Kasler or Roberti Roos list?????
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Old 08-27-2017, 11:33 PM
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So what was the make and model of your complete lower. I might have the same answer for you as your dealer if your lower was on either the Kasler or Roberti Roos list?????
It does not matter if it is listed by name since a lower is not semi-auto so it isn't a so-called a-salt weapon.
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Old 08-28-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
It does not matter if it is listed by name since a lower is not semi-auto so it isn't a so-called a-salt weapon.
Agreed, however I can see how that could be a basis for why the OG FFL didn't want to handle it. And that begs the question who would want to own a receiver that they ultimately cant do anything with here in CA. I guess if you had plans to leave the state and build it later, but still...
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Old 08-28-2017, 11:43 AM
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And since I know of no dealer willing to transfer a Bushmaster XM 15 Receiver or a DPMS Panther Receiver or a Colt Sporter receiver, No fault for a dealer to say no. . . .I sure wouldn't transfer one Kemasa. When was the last time you transferred an on-list receiver in a PPT ??
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Old 08-28-2017, 3:17 PM
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As long as it is not semi-auto, it is legal. It is asking for trouble having it since not all LEOs and/or DAs might know that it is required to be a semi-auto.

So since it is not illegal, would you just refuse to transfer it just because? We say there is enough problems with the laws in CA, but then when it isn't even illegal some refuse and are basically making up new laws.
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Old 08-28-2017, 4:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
As long as it is not semi-auto, it is legal. It is asking for trouble having it since not all LEOs and/or DAs might know that it is required to be a semi-auto.

So since it is not illegal, would you just refuse to transfer it just because? We say there is enough problems with the laws in CA, but then when it isn't even illegal some refuse and are basically making up new laws.
I've never tried this but, wouldn't DROS kick it out when entering the model?
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Old 08-28-2017, 4:46 PM
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I've never tried this but, wouldn't DROS kick it out when entering the model?
I don't know. If you notice in other threads, a SKS gets refused unless you add "fixed". You might have to include non-semi-auto.

Notice that for lowers you have to make up what type of firearm it might become. I recently saw a thread about a pump action AR upper.
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Old 08-28-2017, 6:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty621 View Post
I wasn't mad about the denial of me, it was about the fact they thought we would do something illegal, but aye, it's a business and they're allowed to practice however they see fit.
It's hard to trust when it could mean losing your business. The concern about causing offense would be less important to me than the thought of losing my store.

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But in reality you can't blame a FFL that won't transfer, blame a populous that has made it a point to not ban together to out vote gun restrictions. Blame the people who are lining up to register, then bragging about it online.
LOL. You sound like the goofs on GunBroker who act like we did this to ourselves. You could take every person on Calguns and get them to vote the and we would still lose by a factor of five. If there was any hope for us, then there wouldn't be a screaming super-majority for the Dems in Sacramento.

And I'll be registering my relevant rifles. Once upon a time, I listened before to some dip **** who said "Don't register them because they'll just come and seize them!" and I ended up with guns that were a felony to do anything with other than store out of state, and I ended up losing anyway (better to have sold them than never shoot them).
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Old 08-28-2017, 6:41 PM
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Do you try to educate people? Learning to discuss the issue with liberals can be interesting and sometimes they actually learn. You have to stay calm though.
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Old 08-28-2017, 8:28 PM
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Do you try to educate people? Learning to discuss the issue with liberals can be interesting and sometimes they actually learn. You have to stay calm though.
Which is exactly why I did the CNN show United Shades of America. Our entire discussion wasn't aired but Kamau learned quite a few things about CA and gun laws.
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Old 08-29-2017, 8:55 AM
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So Kemasa, Can I send all the folks here in Sacramento that want an XM 15 receiver or a Colt Sporter or an Olympic arms Receiver to you? Care to advertise that you are willing to transfer one of these banned by name receivers? Seriously??
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Old 08-29-2017, 9:01 AM
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So what was the make and model of your complete lower. I might have the same answer for you as your dealer if your lower was on either the Kasler or Roberti Roos list?????

Is this a question? I feel like you're making assumptions right out of the gate.

It was a Knight's SR-30 Lower Receiver.


No, he wasn't scared it was a KAC lower. He told me to take it out side and remove the pistol grip, the buffer tube, and the "bullet button." (Which was a standard magazine catch, since it's just a lower)
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Old 08-29-2017, 9:02 AM
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I am not stabbing at dealers, just curious as legality. But it seems safe to say if a dealer truly believes a receiver is illegal, it's within his rights and legal obligation to not transfer it.
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Old 08-29-2017, 9:05 AM
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Is this a question? I feel like you're making assumptions right out of the gate.



It was a Knight's SR-30 Lower Receiver.





No, he wasn't scared it was a KAC lower. He told me to take it out side and remove the pistol grip, the buffer tube, and the "bullet button." (Which was a standard magazine catch, since it's just a lower)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the roll mark on the receiver only matters if it is SACF right? Anyone can own any lower, but the configuration is what matters, correct?
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Old 08-29-2017, 9:05 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post

So since it is not illegal, would you just refuse to transfer it just because?
Why yes, Yes I would refuse to transfer a Kasler list or Roberti Roos listed firearm. I am not going to aid or abet the transfer of a listed assault weapon even in receiver form. WHY, you might ask? Because I enjoy the little bits of freedom I have left and I am not racing to be the crash test dummy for the gun grabbers in this state who would publicize my actions for all to see. Even if there was a razor thin shred of assumed or perceived legality and over the objections and guffaws of the armchair go getters here at Calguns.

However, Should you and your establishment want to ride the bullet train to prove a point, Let me know and I'll have my customers so desirous of a said listed firearm (RECEIVER) head your way. And then when the Local DA or DOJ gets wind of your actions. . . . . . . . . .Well, I hope you have deep pockets.
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Old 08-29-2017, 9:19 AM
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Is this a question? I feel like you're making assumptions right out of the gate.

It was a Knight's SR-30 Lower Receiver.

Knights SR-30 receivers are good to go, since they are not on the list. The first dealer should have done the transaction and obviously didn't have the Kasler or Roberti Roos Lists in front of him. . . .
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Old 08-29-2017, 9:36 AM
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Its a shame that FFL agents have been spooked to the point. They must live in fear of losing thier business over transactions that fall in somewhat grey areas...
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Old 08-29-2017, 9:54 AM
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Its a shame that FFL agents have been spooked to the point. They must live in fear of losing their business over transactions that fall in somewhat grey areas...
Sometimes common sense creeps into the equation. Fear??? Not so much. Google "Robert Snelling" for an example of what happens to good dealers as a result of grey areas and the results. . . . .
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Old 08-29-2017, 7:01 PM
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flectarn flectarn is offline
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Originally Posted by Rusty621 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the roll mark on the receiver only matters if it is SACF right? Anyone can own any lower, but the configuration is what matters, correct?

I am not familiar with SACF, so I can't comment unfortunately. As far as the lower, you can own a AR lower receiver in any configuration as long as it's not mated with an upper receiver, with a full auto receiver being an exemption.
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  #34  
Old 08-29-2017, 7:03 PM
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flectarn flectarn is offline
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Originally Posted by rbetts View Post
Knights SR-30 receivers are good to go, since they are not on the list. The first dealer should have done the transaction and obviously didn't have the Kasler or Roberti Roos Lists in front of him. . . .
Yes definitely.

Also he was concerned specifically about the pistol grip, collapsible stock, and "bullet button" (Which was a standard magazine catch).

Long story short, he didn't really know what he was talking about.


I didn't come here to seek reassurance, however the law interests me and I generally wanted to know the legality of him not honoring a legal transfer.
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Old 08-29-2017, 7:37 PM
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mcisniper mcisniper is offline
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Long story short, I brought an AR complete lower receiver in to an FFL to do a PPT. The FFL fed me a bunch of crap about how he needed an Assault Weapons license to transfer this, its illegal, etc. I disagreed with him and they told me to do the transfer somewhere else.

No big deal, transferred at his competitor's across the freeway. And then bought a gun from them as well


Anyways, I began to question the legality of a dealer not doing the PPT on a completely legal firearm receiver. As far as I know, FFL's in CA are legally obligated to process all rifle PPT.


Thoughts?
It's really up to the dealer. I had the DOJ tell me no BB rifles ("Assault Weapons") in the shop after Jan 1, 2017 if I did not have an AW permit. I can see where a dealer might not want to deal with a complete lower. It really falls on how comfortable he feels in explaining it to the DOJ if he gets a visit. It is a very fine line we are talking about livelihoods. Legality? The DOJ would probably be glad he chose not to conduct the transfer. I would also not want the DOJ sniffing around my personal stuff because I complained about what a dealer didn't do. I would not take it personally.
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Last edited by mcisniper; 08-29-2017 at 7:40 PM..
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  #36  
Old 08-30-2017, 12:07 AM
rustyx rustyx is offline
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Originally Posted by flectarn View Post
I am not familiar with SACF, so I can't comment unfortunately. As far as the lower, you can own a AR lower receiver in any configuration as long as it's not mated with an upper receiver, with a full auto receiver being an exemption.


Semi auto center fire.
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  #37  
Old 08-30-2017, 6:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Rusty621 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the roll mark on the receiver only matters if it is SACF right? Anyone can own any lower, but the configuration is what matters, correct?
I don't believe CF is a requirement, but I could be wrong.
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