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  #1  
Old 06-17-2020, 12:49 PM
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Default Off Roster Intrafamily handguns getting conflicting info

So I'm more confused than ever on off roster handguns. I moved here last year and brought some off roster handguns and registered them in my name and had no problem. My son lives in a free state and will gift me some additional off roster guns. I have talked to a couple FFL's here that said they would do it. That it can only be one hangun per month and ship to the FFL along with a letter stating it's a gift and a copy of his DL. I've heard from some FFL's that it has to ship from a FFL in his state and other's say he can ship via UPS/FedEx to my FFL. I've also heard he can ship more than one since it's a gift.

Now yesterday I sold a off roster handgun and met them at their FFL. I was asking him if he accepts intrafamily off roster handguns for intrafamily. He said not to send them to a FFL that they would have to keep it. He told me to have my son ship them to me and then submit the gun's paperwork to the Calfornia DOJ to register them in my name. That doesn't sound right to me but he was a small FFL that worked from his home?

Can anyone tell me this is possible ot do I need to ship to a local FFL and only one at a time?

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 06-17-2020, 1:07 PM
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Not sure about one at a time. This may be FFL policy and may vary.

Your second paragraph is rather confusion.

Point being, it has to go through a CA FFL which will then DROS it to you. Your son can ship it from his FFL.
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Old 06-17-2020, 1:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verdigris View Post
He said not to send them to a FFL that they would have to keep it. He told me to have my son ship them to me and then submit the gun's paperwork to the Calfornia DOJ to register them in my name. That doesn't sound right to me but he was a small FFL that worked from his home?
This FFL has no idea what he is talking about, and just advised you and your son to commit federal felonies.

It MUST ship to a FFL.

It is 1-in-30 exempt.

I STRONGLY suggest you use UG Imports in Fremont to handle this.
http://www.ugimports.com/blog/
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Old 06-17-2020, 1:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verdigris View Post
So I'm more confused than ever on off roster handguns. I moved here last year and brought some off roster handguns and registered them in my name and had no problem. My son lives in a free state and will gift me some additional off roster guns. I have talked to a couple FFL's here that said they would do it. That it can only be one hangun per month and ship to the FFL along with a letter stating it's a gift and a copy of his DL. I've heard from some FFL's that it has to ship from a FFL in his state and other's say he can ship via UPS/FedEx to my FFL. I've also heard he can ship more than one since it's a gift.

Now yesterday I sold a off roster handgun and met them at their FFL. I was asking him if he accepts intrafamily off roster handguns for intrafamily. He said not to send them to a FFL that they would have to keep it. He told me to have my son ship them to me and then submit the gun's paperwork to the Calfornia DOJ to register them in my name. That doesn't sound right to me but he was a small FFL that worked from his home?

Can anyone tell me this is possible ot do I need to ship to a local FFL and only one at a time?

Thanks
Find a different FFL. This one is proposing that you and your son commit a federal felony. One problem you may face is that many FFLs will not accept firearms shipped to them from private parties. This means that your son may have to have a FFL ship the firearm for him. Alternatively, he could bring the firearm to CA and the two of you could go to a local FFL who would do the transfer. He would need his out of state DL, and generally the FFL will require a gift letter. Remember no mags over 10rnds.

Last edited by BAJ475; 06-17-2020 at 1:36 PM.. Reason: correct typo
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Old 06-17-2020, 1:55 PM
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Your FFL is dumber than a post and trying to have you commit a felony. Out the twit. Completely clueless. Many posts on this. It must be a gift you cannot request which handgun you wish him to get. Go to UG imports up by you he will treat you right.
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Old 06-18-2020, 8:11 AM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Your FFL is dumber than a post and trying to have you commit a felony. Out the twit. Completely clueless. Many posts on this. It must be a gift you cannot request which handgun you wish him to get. Go to UG imports up by you he will treat you right.
You are being a little harsh. When I was a CA resident, I gave my brother, who is an Idaho resident, an AR. When we went to a local FFL in ID, they said that I could just give him the AR, as ID does not regulate transfers between private parties. They were correct about ID law. I politely said that because I was a CA resident under federal law the transfer had to go through a FFL and they should look it up. That did not make them dumber than a post nor did it mean that they were trying to get me to commit a felony. They were merely faced with a situation they were not familiar with. They looked it up and said that I was correct and completed the transfer. My brother left with his AR a few minutes latter. I suggested that the OP find another FFL, because it is better to deal with a FFL who is familiar with these intra family transfers because of how it has to be entered into the DROS system.

What makes you think that the OP cannot request which handgun he wishes to receive?
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Old 06-18-2020, 8:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
This FFL has no idea what he is talking about, and just advised you and your son to commit federal felonies.

It MUST ship to a FFL.

It is 1-in-30 exempt.

I STRONGLY suggest you use UG Imports in Fremont to handle this.
http://www.ugimports.com/blog/
Hawk,

Do you know how an FFL would enter this in the DROS system? I had always heard that since the FFL had to take it into their inventory that you were limited to the 1-30 rule unless you were exempt from the 1-30 rule.
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Old 06-18-2020, 9:44 AM
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Originally Posted by morrcarr67 View Post
Hawk,

Do you know how an FFL would enter this in the DROS system? I had always heard that since the FFL had to take it into their inventory that you were limited to the 1-30 rule unless you were exempt from the 1-30 rule.
It was a DOJ decision in the last couple of years.

We have had threads, here is a post you may be interested in:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
We put this in the comments:
SB 15 Exempt - 27870PC intrafamily transfer, 12133PC Roster Exempt; Operation of Law 1-in-30 Exempt

I don't think it's required, but might be helpful down the line during an audit.

We've provided the same text when we've gotten a call from time to time from the person checking the DROS asking why we were transferring more than 1 pistol < 30 days to the same individual. The text above we use as the reason to explain to them and it hasn't been an issue yet.
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You mean other than my CA DOJ Firearms Inspector telling me it is and how to do the transfer? It needs to be marked FSC exempt by using X02 and clicking on the 1 in 30 exemption. The person still actually needs a FSC, but the process is broken, so you have to make due.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Confirmation from CA DOJ, but process slightly different then what Kemasa got:

Quote:
Interfamilial transfers are exempt from the 1 handgun in 30 days law.

DROS as Exempt Handgun, type Operation of Law in the Comments field, and select the 30-day Restriction Exemption.

Let me know if you have further questions.
I was not instructed to use X02 in the FSC Exemption field..

Also check these threads

this one starting around post 220 https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1156542

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1058641

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1532709
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 06-18-2020 at 10:00 AM..
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  #9  
Old 06-18-2020, 11:46 AM
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All very good info. Thnak you Sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
It was a DOJ decision in the last couple of years.

We have had threads, here is a post you may be interested in:



and






Also check these threads

this one starting around post 220 https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1156542

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1058641

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1532709
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”Benitez 3:29 Thou shall not limit magazine capacity”
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Old 06-18-2020, 12:54 PM
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verdigris

Wise of you to ask the CG community.

FYI, some of the very worst of the worst and downright illegal information given to prospective firearms owners, buyers, possessors, transferees, etc.

Is handed out from FFL COUNTER MONKEYS.

The more you learn, the more you realize how little the majority of them know.

Rely on UG Imports for solid lawful information and fair treatment in you area.
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  #11  
Old 06-19-2020, 10:08 AM
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Thanks for everyone clafiying all this nonsense. I've never dealt with this particular FFL before this week to sell a handgun on a PPT. I thought it was worth seeing if he did intra family transfers as well and doubted the info he gave me. I've been told by some FFL's it had to be shipped from a FFL and another FFL that my son can mail them to my FFL directly.
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by verdigris View Post
I've been told by some FFL's it had to be shipped from a FFL and another FFL that my son can mail them to my FFL directly.
Both are true. But some FFLs will not accept shipments from a non licensee.

And a non licensee (your son) cannot ship handguns via USPS. It will be more expensive for your son to ship, must go overnight, and he will have to tender the package at a UPS or Fedex hub, or to a driver directly. He can't drop it at a retail ship location.

So sometimes it is easier to have another FFL ship it, and can even be cheaper because a FFL can use USPS to send handguns.
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Old 06-19-2020, 12:05 PM
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I've done this twice (I'm in CA).

Best method is FFL to FFL. Make sure the CA FFL is familiar with the program. It worked great for me. Good luck.
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Old 06-19-2020, 12:20 PM
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We have recently published a bulletin through CRPA that should put this question to bed. You can view it here- https://crpa.org/news/blogs/bulletin...ial-transfers/
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Old 06-19-2020, 1:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MCubeiro View Post
We have recently published a bulletin through CRPA that should put this question to bed. You can view it here- https://crpa.org/news/blogs/bulletin...ial-transfers/
That's pretty good, thanks!

I do want to quibbble with one phrasing, though.

Quote:
As applied to some law enforcement agencies and their sworn members, however, the law expressly forbids California licensed firearm dealers from transferring an “unsafe handgun” acquired pursuant to the exception to another person who is not also somehow exempt.27

This means “sworn members” of state agencies such as the Department of Parks and Recreation, Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control, and other agencies expressly listed in subdivision (b)(6) of Penal Code section 32000 cannot engage in PPTs.28

California licensed firearm dealers knowingly and willfully processing such transactions face liability under both state and federal law.29
The underlined seems to me to leave out another part of the context.

LE, like any other CA residents, may acquire handguns on several paths not related to their LE exemption. (E.g. purchase by PPT, inheritance, intrafamilial transfer)

LE may surely PPT such guns, not acquired by the LE exemptions, right?
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


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Old 06-19-2020, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post

LE may surely PPT such guns, not acquired by the LE exemptions, right?
Yes of course. This is only in the context of the sworn member selling a gun that they acquired pursuant to the exception. Thank you for pointing that out.
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Old 06-23-2020, 2:08 PM
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For an inter-family transfer across state lines, does the FFL need to be in the recipient's home state or can that portion be completed in the giver's home state?

Father travels out of state to the child's home, given a gift, paperwork at local FFL, and file CA paperwork by mail?
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Old 06-23-2020, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by thedonger View Post
For an inter-family transfer across state lines, does the FFL need to be in the recipient's home state or can that portion be completed in the giver's home state?

Father travels out of state to the child's home, given a gift, paperwork at local FFL, and file CA paperwork by mail?
Nope. It needs to be done in giftee’s home state.
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Old 06-23-2020, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by thedonger View Post
For an inter-family transfer across state lines, does the FFL need to be in the recipient's home state or can that portion be completed in the giver's home state?
Must be done in the state of the person receiving the firearm. That is Federal law which applies in all states to inter-state handgun transfers.
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Old 06-23-2020, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by thedonger View Post

Father travels out of state to the child's home, given a gift, paperwork at local FFL, and file CA paperwork by mail?
The DROS paperwork is all you need; transfer at the CA FFL, no other paperwork.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


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Old 06-23-2020, 8:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
That's pretty good, thanks!

I do want to quibbble with one phrasing, though.


The underlined seems to me to leave out another part of the context.

LE, like any other CA residents, may acquire handguns on several paths not related to their LE exemption. (E.g. purchase by PPT, inheritance, intrafamilial transfer)

LE may surely PPT such guns, not acquired by the LE exemptions, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCubeiro View Post
Yes of course. This is only in the context of the sworn member selling a gun that they acquired pursuant to the exception. Thank you for pointing that out.
So let me get this straight.

LEO A and LEO B are both LEO's that can't resell off roster guns acquired by being roster exempt to non-roster exempt people.

But LEO A can PPT it to LEO B. Since LEO B now acquired it by means of PPT he/she can now resell via PPT to anyone they want.



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Old 06-23-2020, 9:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrcarr67 View Post
So let me get this straight.

LEO A and LEO B are both LEO's that can't resell off roster guns acquired by being roster exempt to non-roster exempt people.

But LEO A can PPT it to LEO B. Since LEO B now acquired it by means of PPT he/she can now resell via PPT to anyone they want.
That's right. As already noted, either or both officers' employing agencies may have a work rule on the point, so it is not entirely up to weird gyrations slaloming through bits of Penal Code.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


Gregg Easterbrook’s “Law of Doomsaying”: Predict catastrophe no later than ten years hence but no sooner than five years away — soon enough to terrify people but distant enough that they will not remember that you were wrong.


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Old 06-24-2020, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrcarr67 View Post
So let me get this straight.

LEO A and LEO B are both LEO's that can't resell off roster guns acquired by being roster exempt to non-roster exempt people.

But LEO A can PPT it to LEO B. Since LEO B now acquired it by means of PPT he/she can now resell via PPT to anyone they want.
Also, a “(b)(6) LEO” is not proscribed by statute from transferring to an immediate, California resident, family member via a simple op law form. PC 32000(c)(1) would not apply to that family member either.
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Old 06-30-2020, 1:26 PM
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I'm in a similar circumstance. My dad lives out of state and wants to transfer me an off roster handgun.

He'll be coming down to visit in a couple months. Can he bring it with him and we do a private party transfer at an FFL in CA or since he'll be in state at that time, will the op law form apply?

Last edited by sixstringslinger; 06-30-2020 at 1:29 PM.. Reason: quoted wrong reply
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Old 06-30-2020, 1:31 PM
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^^ He can bring and you will do a transfer at ffl. Not ppt. It is an interstate intrafamilial transfer. No taxes, 10 day wait if your lucky. Find a local ffl that can do this and does not charge a fortune for the transfer.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:56 PM
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^^ He can bring and you will do a transfer at ffl. Not ppt. It is an interstate intrafamilial transfer. No taxes, 10 day wait if your lucky. Find a local ffl that can do this and does not charge a fortune for the transfer.
So I've called all my FFLs in town and every one of them says because he's by blood father, I would only need to file the intra-familiar transfer form when he brings the firearm down here.

What I read on in the United States Code, it seems that intra-familiar transfers from Parent to Child is exempt and in line with the CA DOJ intra-familiar transfer process. I'm no lawyer and this may be in the instance of an inheritance after the death of the parent, but it clearly says "bequest" which can be a gift through a will or a gift in general.

Reading USC 922 (a)(5):

[I]§ 922. Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

This is also in alignment with what I read on the ATF Website:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom...arms-under-gca

If this is not the case, does anyone have an FFL that they've done this with and is more familiar with the process so I can get some direction on how to complete the transfer? Preferably in the Southern San Joaquin Valley.

Last edited by sixstringslinger; 07-01-2020 at 12:57 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 07-01-2020, 3:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sixstringslinger View Post
So I've called all my FFLs in town and every one of them says because he's by blood father, I would only need to file the intra-familiar transfer form when he brings the firearm down here.

What I read on in the United States Code, it seems that intra-familiar transfers from Parent to Child is exempt and in line with the CA DOJ intra-familiar transfer process. I'm no lawyer and this may be in the instance of an inheritance after the death of the parent, but it clearly says "bequest" which can be a gift through a will or a gift in general.

Reading USC 922 (a)(5):

[I]§ 922. Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

This is also in alignment with what I read on the ATF Website:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom...arms-under-gca

If this is not the case, does anyone have an FFL that they've done this with and is more familiar with the process so I can get some direction on how to complete the transfer? Preferably in the Southern San Joaquin Valley.
Nope -'bequest' is when the giver has passed on.

All the FFL people you spoke to were wrong.

See the sticky, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1179771
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  #28  
Old 07-02-2020, 7:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixstringslinger View Post
So I've called all my FFLs in town and every one of them says because he's by blood father, I would only need to file the intra-familiar transfer form when he brings the firearm down here.
Never take legal advice from FFLs. Especially ones who give you the advice you got.

The 'Prime Directive' as it were in the world of firearms transfers, is 'thou shall not transfer firearms between residents of different states without using a FFL.'

It has been that way since 1968. There are no exceptions for family. The only exception is if someone died.

It is unbelievable that FFLs still don't know this, 52 years into it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Nope -'bequest' is when the giver has passed on.
And 'intestate succession' means someone passed without a will, and the probate laws where that someone lived decided who gets the guns. I also see people get confused frequently about what that means and they think it means transfer among living family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixstringslinger View Post

This is also in alignment with what I read on the ATF Website:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom...arms-under-gca

If this is not the case, does anyone have an FFL that they've done this with and is more familiar with the process so I can get some direction on how to complete the transfer? Preferably in the Southern San Joaquin Valley.

That document at the ATF does not say anything about transferring guns among living people who live in different states, unless one of them is a FFL.
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 07-02-2020 at 8:08 AM..
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  #29  
Old 07-02-2020, 10:15 AM
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If you want to don tin foil hats and split hairs those FFL's may be correct. Look at 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (a)(5). If you have not "purchased or otherwise obtained" the gun outside of your state of residence it isn't clear that you are in violation of Federal law if you do not use a FFL and your father gives the gun to you after he brings it to you in Ca. So you might feel comfortable with just filing an OpLaw stating giving the date acquired as the date you father was in Ca. This is a dangerous path to take that I would recommend against. You father will clearly be in violation of 18 USC (a)(5) and it isn't clear to me that you wouldn' t incur criminal liability for aid and abetting his violation. (I can think of an old case arguing why you would not be, but it is old and I never practiced crim law.)

So the short answer is you should use a FFL if you don't want to turn your father into a Federal felon (and perhaps you as well).
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Old 07-02-2020, 10:41 AM
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Amazing there are still clueless ffls out there. Never ask a leo or ffl for firearms legality questions. Ask on here and one of our resident ambulance chasers will answer (LOL)
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  #31  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:01 AM
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Chewy are you referring to Batterjee?
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