bullpup rifle pros/cons?

[mywytefeet]

I've always been amazed by the looks of bullpup rifles. They seem pretty awesome (although I have little experience with them.) I was wondering if someone could give me some pros/cons of the rifles listed below? Maybe compare and contrast the two. Obviously, they can be used for different things and some would argue they are not exactly on the same playing field, but general info and comparative would be nice. I'm interested in reliability issues, specifically when Californicated, which rifles might be better/easier to maintain, parts/work on/other issues to think about etc. for a Californian. Price isn't an issue, and I'd like to strictly stick to these rifles listed below. I know many people would prefer to have an AK variant/AR variant, but for this topic, tell me what you know about these two rifles. Would be great to hear from someone who has one of these rifles and what they like/don't like about them.

MSAR STG556
FN FS2000

Any other bullpup design that can be CA legal, you own?

[djleisure]

I'd say the biggest "con" in CA would be the fact that you still have to be 30" OAL, which pretty much kills the reason to have a bullpup.

[mywytefeet]

very true. How far off of the 30" OAL are the two rifles listed above? I seem to have read somewhere that they are not that much shorter? I thought I saw someone talking about a butt pad addition for the FS 2000 to make it a bit longer, I could be wrong though.

Originally Posted by djleisure

I'd say the biggest "con" in CA would be the fact that you still have to be 30" OAL, which pretty much kills the reason to have a bullpup.

[djleisure]

Originally Posted by mywytefeet

very true. How far off of the 30" OAL are the two rifles listed above? I seem to have read somewhere that they are not that much shorter? I thought I saw someone talking about a butt pad addition for the FS 2000 to make it a bit longer, I could be wrong though.

I'm not sure about the two listed above, but I used to REALLY want a PS90 before holding a Californicated version w/ the butt extension. That extension REALLY threw off the ergonomics of the gun and screwed up the eye-relief for the optic - I no longer want a PS90 in CA.

Maybe the two you listed can be fixed more easily with a short-ish barrel extension - I'm sure someone else will chime in soon!

[Rukus]

IIRC the FS2000 also has more than one mag release location which requires you to basically disable more features in order to remain legal.

3 words when it comes to bullpups:
Stealth Recon Scout.

If I ever go bullpup, that's gonna be my pick.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by djleisure

I'd say the biggest "con" in CA would be the fact that you still have to be 30" OAL, which pretty much kills the reason to have a bullpup.

this. unless you wanna start talking about a bullpup bolt action rifle

[wash]

The PS-90 is neat, 26" with it's 16" barrel and a flash hider. It breaks down very small too.

It can be made legal without changing the LOP.

[Josh3239]

I believe the STG with the 16'' barrel is 3'' to 4'' to short. Mine has a fack can that screws onto the flash hider. If you get the STG with a 20'' barrel you don't have to worry about overall length.

Pros
- Shorter length
- More weight in the rear
- Most can easily be made ambidextrius

Cons
- Length can be an obstacle in CA
- Will need to get used to the ergonomics and mag changing (easy once a way is found)
- Some people don't like having everything the system right under their cheek or the side of their face soooo close to the ejection port. I don't mind it one bit personally.

[RECCE556]

For the AUG type guns (and any Bullpup that has a left or right side ejection port), the BIGGEST no-go for me is that fact that you can not transition to support side w/o the brass ejecting directly into your face. The FS2000 doesn't have that problem (obviously, FN thought that was a downfall of bullpups too!) since it ejects out the front.

Outside of that, the action being under my head isn't too comforting especially since I've seen overpressured/overloaded rounds blow guns up. I would probably be more comfortable with a lower pressure round (like say a 9mm AUG)....

[Sicarius]

To add to the previous post
Pros:
faster followup shot
more manuverable
can be overall shorter than your typical carbine

Cons:
Trigger is typically not as crisp because of the linkage

[sevensix2x51]

ehh, biggest thing for me is the off-chance it has a failure... i just dont like the idea... my left arm is a lot sturdier than the right side of my face, when it comes to flying metal, plastic and burning powder... but they seem pretty cool, other than that. just dont trust them darn newfangled contraptions..

[dchang0]

I own an FS2000. With the stock flash hider, it's about 1" short of the 30" OAL requirement. I simply drilled the blind pin out and replaced the flash hider with a Freddy Brake, which not only brought the OAL up but is a very effective brake.

I opted for the magazine lock approach of making it legal. Raddlock developed a custom lock that addresses both mag releases.

I have shot Raddlock's MSAR--it is a bit front-heavy for my tastes. They have a lock for that one too, and a special barrel extension to bring it up above 30" OAL.

Pros:

+ very good for maneuvering indoors or in tight quarters
+ much more balanced than regular rifles, especially for one-handed operation
+ in the case of the FS2000 and PS90, fantastic ergonomics, even if they are neutered by the 30" OAL requirement

Cons:

+ price
+ mag changes are somewhat more awkward than ARs, because the magwell is behind the trigger
+ clearing malfunctions on an FS2000 is harder because it's not as easy to inspect the chamber. On a PS90, you CAN'T inspect the chamber without flipping the entire gun upside down, but it doesn't malfunction very often at all because gravity works in its favor.
+ "coathanger" trigger pulls. Some have fixed this with a generous dollop of grease inside the coathanger's tracks.
+ FS2000 takes only STANAG compliant mags, ruling out PMAGs but not EMAGs. MSAR and PS90 take very proprietary mags
+ only one company makes good slings for bullpups: Urban ERT

[Josh3239]

Originally Posted by B Strong

They're nice toys, but as a serious piece they've got a whole mess of problems

They aren't serious pieces yet the British have stuck with the SA80 for several years now (and since fixed the problems from the original versions). The Austrians have stuck with them for over 20 years. The Israelis have decided to essentially drop all the rifles they have (AKs, ARs, Galils, Uzis, M1s) in exchange for the Tavor. The Chinese essentially dropped the AK in exchange for that QBZ thingy.

Barret has continued to produce a bull pup .50 BMG which they also sell to several militaries includiong our own, Kel Tec just released the .308 bull pup RFB, the bullpup kit for the SKS has just been released, Charles Daly is bring the Tavor to the USA, Sabre brough the AUG A3 to the USA, and apparently BIY SA80 kits are coming to the USA.

Not serious pieces huh?

Originally Posted by dchang0

I have shot Raddlock's MSAR--it is a bit front-heavy for my tastes.

I don't see how you could come to that conclusion, every thing is in the back of the rifle; the loaded magazine, the hammer pack, the BCG, almost the entire stock assembly. Pretty much only thing in front is the end of the barrel.

Originally Posted by dchang0

+ mag changes are somewhat more awkward than ARs, because the magwell is behind the trigger

They are easy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBbJhv39IUM

Originally Posted by dchang0

MSAR and PS90 take very proprietary mags

Gen 1s take MSAR mags or AUG mags with very easy/minor modification.
Gen 2-4 will accept both MSAR and AUG mags.
E4 will take any AR15 style mag with the exception of the Lancer (can be modified easily)

Originally Posted by WeekendWarrior

Typically not ambidextrous

MSAR just requires swapping the bolts and removing the plastic dust cover. The fire selection on both the AUG and the MSAR are ambi as well as deploying the vertical foregrip. The only thing not ambi about the MSAR/AUG is the charging handle which is quite common.

[Manic Moran]

I'd say the biggest "con" in CA would be the fact that you still have to be 30" OAL, which pretty much kills the reason to have a bullpup.

What sort of daft argument is that?

Compare, say, my AXR I have at home with the M4 I have here.

M4 is 29.8" long with the stock collapsed. I shoot with the stock extended, making it 33" total. It has a 14.5" barrel.
My AXR is 30.2" long. It has an 18.25" barrel, and, I think, has better balance.

For those of us who like full-sized rifles and not carbines, the bullpup design, even in California, has some serious merit.

NTM

[B Strong]

They're nice toys, but as a serious piece they've got a whole mess of problems, the most serious being that you can't wrap yourself around the thing properly to shoot from prone.

I bought an AUG way back when, and I loved the thing for plinking, but other than looking cooler than hell, the thing offers no advantage over a conventional design.

[Pvt. Cowboy]

Originally Posted by B Strong

I bought an AUG way back when, and I loved the thing for plinking, but other than looking cooler than hell, the thing offers no advantage over a conventional design.

Except for dumping the barrel in 2 seconds and going from a 24" HBAR barrel to a 14" SBR barrel.

The AUG also was first with introducing quite a lot of technologies that have since been adopted by other rifle manufacturers: Synthetic semi-transparent mags, synthetic stock/receiver extension, left/right shooter configuration, integrated optics, quick change barrels, and I'd even credit the Steyr AUG with introducing the standardized vertical foregrip.

[mywytefeet]

Thank you all for the comments and insight--this gives me a lot to think about, which is good. =)

[Fjold]

Con - Ugly as sin.

[olhunter]

There was a post here somewhere that I can't find where some company was selling white Mosin and SKS composite bullpup stocks. Looked like something outta Halo, but still pretty cool.

[Q]

Don't have one but kushnapup is another bullpup kit.

I'd get a aug/stg before anything else.

[WeekendWarrior]

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