Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > California handguns
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California handguns Discuss your favorite California handgun technical and related questions here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-16-2012, 3:19 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default Accuracy pistol shooting (Bullseye, ISSF)

Looks like there was some interest in "long distance" pistol shooting at 25 to 50 yards (meters) in another thread. Always eager to get people interested in traditional Bullseye shooting and international/Olympic shooting, so any questions or concerns, go ahead and ask.

If you're in the Bay Area, and want to get started in shooting bullseye or Olympic-type shooting, send me a PM and I can meet you at my local ranges, or direct you to other shooters who would gladly help you out.

For starters, here is a really good starting website to learn about Bullseye:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/
The USAMU guide on the right side, is the classic, military standard, which still mostly applies, however it's rather didactic and many shooters disagree with their stance, grip, trigger finger positions, and "natural-point-of-aim". But you can't really go wrong following the guide's directions.

Last edited by jakuda; 01-16-2012 at 3:22 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-16-2012, 3:35 PM
rplusplus's Avatar
rplusplus rplusplus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baghdad West
Posts: 2,186
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Thanks for the link!
__________________
US Navy Retired 1987-2007
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-16-2012, 3:40 PM
tbc's Avatar
tbc tbc is offline
Smite Me
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Irvine
Posts: 3,947
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

Cool! Thank you for initiating this thread. I have a few questions

Do you need competition pistols to achieve accuracy at a 25- yard plus. Do all competion models have lighter trigger? And shorter over travel?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-16-2012, 3:53 PM
HighValleyRanch HighValleyRanch is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lake county, Northern CA
Posts: 284
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

Thanks Jakuda for starting a thread, since some others are interested in learning about the "classical art" of bullseye shooting.
Mind if I post here rather than starting another thread on some insights?

Here is a pic of the Bob Chow Classic held at the San Francisco Police range every year. Bob Chow was one of my mentors and one of the Top shooters of the 1950's.

On another thread I posted this on 50 yard shooting:
Quote:

And at that great a distance, sight alignment becomes paramount to the sight picture. It becomes evident quickly. Funny how the bull can wander off to the edge of the front blade, but if your sights are still perfectly aligned, you will hit in the black. But let the sights get misaligned, and no matter how centered the black dot is on top of the sight, the shot will be in the white. Parallel error vs. triangular error is the key.

Like jakuda responded, you learn to call each shot at the moment of break, and memorize the feeling of a perfect shot, and just try to recreate that shot ten times in a row.
That little line, Parallel difference vs. Triangular difference is golden.

It was one of the key things that Bob Chow "learned" me.
Something to ponder a bit and discuss.

Not much importance at ten yards or less, but a world of difference for longer distance hand gun shooting.

Sight aligment vs. sight picture is the clue.

Last edited by HighValleyRanch; 01-16-2012 at 3:56 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-16-2012, 3:56 PM
rplusplus's Avatar
rplusplus rplusplus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baghdad West
Posts: 2,186
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

I just finished the "Get Into Bullseye Shooting" part...



Oh I am going to like this. It's like a new journey.

And an excuse to get a really good .22lr match pistol
__________________
US Navy Retired 1987-2007
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-16-2012, 4:16 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

I am of the opinion, that when starting out into bullseye and even well into sharpshooter level (85-90%), ignore everyone who tells you that you "need" top tier equipment X and ammunition Y. Thank them politely for their advice regarding equipment, and move on to other topics.

Yes, as one gets better, one will realize certain trigger types, equipment, and dot-sights will make things "easier" for YOU but more often than not, your trigger finger is screwing up the bullet path. Not the equipment, not the rounds.

A key note: shooting is mostly mental. It doesn't take that much physical prowess to pull a 2.5-4 lb trigger. Once you allow "advice" about "better" equipment into your head, you focus more on equipment and allow doubt to creep in, instead of focusing on your sight alignment, and trigger pull. Shooters often say, well I'm going to spend $$$$$ NOW so I know I have no doubts. Well, that's fine for them. Don't let those doubts get to you in the first place when you're starting out. Trust me, when you shoot a shot out of the black bullseye, it's not your equipment: YOU messed up. There is a long time yet to start accumulating equipment, upgrades, and gadgets. It's a long, expensive path. If you find you don't like bullseye, you minimize your $$$ loss, if you focus on technique first.

*rant off*

For 22 caliber. All you need is an out-of-the-box Ruger Mark 3 (or gently used Mark 2) with an adjustable rear sight and standard blade front sight. In fact, the fiber optic front sight is a hindrance for accuracy shooting. The Ruger barrel can shoot 890/900 scores in competition. 900/900 if you're a machine. A Buckmark works also, but I don't have experience with one. Don't let people tell you that you need an expensive European pistol, or an old S&W Model 41. The factory Ruger trigger is creepy and "heavy", but very manageable for bullseye. Bullseye rules allow for a 2.5" trigger pull. One of the first cheap upgrades, would be to get the Volquartsen sear and trigger. This allows for a crisper and lighter pull that is consistent. Pre and post travel modifications are really of secondary importance. I don't mind a little pre-travel since most of the time, I have the slack taken up as I align the sights. I don't notice post travel at all.

For Centerfire and 45 caliber portions, it's easier and cheaper to get one 45 caliber 1911 pistol and shoot it for both portions. Years ago, competitors would shoot a 38special revolver for the centerfire portions. For 25 yard accuracy, most modern, factory 1911s will be accurate enough for starting out. In fact, people have recommended the Springfield Range Officer (not on the CA list though) even for 50 yards. 99.99% of shooters will bring the trigger pull down to the rule minimum which is 3.5 lbs. Shooters vary on preference of a crisp pull, or a "short roll" trigger. Think of a short roll trigger, as a very short, consistent creep. Both have been used to set national records and is a matter of personal preference. Long, short triggers, travel adjustments again are of minor importance and just personal preference or hand size. A Kimber Classic Target II is acceptable to start out with or even a RIA milspec. Springfield RO if you can get one. After some experience under your belt, a new barrel, bushing, and trigger job can be done to it from a bullseye specialist gunsmith to get the vaunted 1.5" group at 50 yards from a ransom rest.

NRA Bullseye allows reddot sights. Most popular are Ultradots and Aimpoint Micros. I am of the opinion that one should learn shooting standard iron sights until well into sharpshooter classification, before deciding whether to switch. Why? It's easier to shoot 50 yards with iron sights. The reddot appears to move around A LOT at 50 yards. With iron sights, it's much easier to focus on sight alignment (we can get into this later) as they don't appear to move around that much. Also, to add a red dot, you may have to send it in to a competent gunsmith to tap holes. So if you wait, you can have a lot of stuff done to your pistol. You probably won't really know what you want in your competition pistol until you shoot and compete in matches a lot.

Last edited by jakuda; 01-18-2012 at 11:53 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-16-2012, 4:51 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default SIGHT ALIGNMENT

Shooters will argue what's more important, trigger pull or sight alignment. I vote trigger pull, never the less, I'll start with sight alignment because it's easier to describe.

Sight picture is the relation of the front sight, rear sight, and the target.
Sight alignment is the relation of the front sight to rear sight.

Of primary importance, as HighValleyRanch mentioned (feel free to jump into this thread at anytime) is Sight Alignment. Top shooters have been successful with various sight pictures, but making sure the front sight is centered and aligned with the rear sight notch needs to be always there for every shot no matter what. Below is a sub-six hold sight picture with perfect sight alignment.



The rear sight should be fuzzy. Don't try to make the rear sight sharp. The bullseye (however you want your sight picture to be ) will be fuzzy at 25 yards and 50 yards. Let it be fuzzy. Ignore the bullseye. Front sight is sharp, concentrate on keeping sights perfectly aligned.

Shooting is mostly mental. Here is why. You have to believe that your bullet will hit the very center of the bullseye 25 or 50 yards away, even though the bullseye is fuzzy and you can't even see the 10 ring. Your hand will wobble around, so the front sight and rear sight will move around (in perfect sight alignment). It will never be still. Just slowly pull the trigger maintaining alignment. It'll end up somewhere in the black. Simple, but hard to do consistently.

Eye-opening drill #1. Shoot at a blank target (flip around a standard bullseye target so you're shooting at the back) at 25 yards. Just aim at the center. Don't look at the target (and the holes that may be visible) and shoot 5-10 shots slowly with sight alignment in mind. The size of your groups will probably surprise you.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-16-2012, 5:02 PM
HighValleyRanch HighValleyRanch is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lake county, Northern CA
Posts: 284
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

Heh, heh, I agree with pretty much what has been stated already!
Must've had the same schooling!LOL

but contrary to the sub six hold, I used a center hold. Just made more sense to my logical mind, and when I was shoot alot of ISSF, on the larger bull, it made more sense to me.

So when I switched to shooting more combat, I still use a center hold. Some here call it
a point of aim hold, I guess.

Now, with my eyes getting old, wearing glasses strong enough to see the front sight just about eliminates the bull at 50 yards, so I just center in the middle of the target as in the blank target exercise and still get pretty decent scores.
Jakuda stated it best that it is a mental exercise just to believe that you can hit the ten ring, when all you see out there is a fuzzy target behind the clear front sight.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-16-2012, 6:12 PM
tbc's Avatar
tbc tbc is offline
Smite Me
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Irvine
Posts: 3,947
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

Does it matter if I choose to use one eye instead of both eyes open?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-16-2012, 6:50 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbc View Post
Does it matter if I choose to use one eye instead of both eyes open?
People have been successful shooting with both eyes open, or occluding (fancy word for covering up) the other eye. If you do cover up your other eye, it's not recommended manual blink/squint to close your other eye, nor use a black occluder. Use translucent scotch tape. If you use black or wink/squint, you get sympathetic dilation of your pupil of the open eye, which may affect your vision.

Pick whatever is more comfortable for you.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-16-2012, 6:57 PM
Barbarossa's Avatar
Barbarossa Barbarossa is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alameda County
Posts: 4,309
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Interesting thread!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-16-2012, 7:01 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default SIGHT PICTURE

Before going to trigger pull, let's quickly go over sight picture.

We've heard about all of them. Here's how they apply to bullseye/issf.

Center hold/Center mass:
For ISSF/Olympic shooting it's very popular for centerfire pistol and rapid fire competitions. I'm not as well versed in these, so others can jump in. Rapid fire is now fired on BIG black bullseyes (20" at 25 yards), so subsix and sixoclock hold aren't very practical. In any case, before they were big black bullseyes, they used "dueling" targets which were manshaped.
There are high masters that shot center hold for bullseye as well.





Six-oclock hold:

Traditionally taught for target shooting. Popular still with bullseye shooting. I find that it's easier to get distracted by the bullseye with the 6oclock hold since the shooter is "trying" to get the front sight perfectly lined up with the bottom of the bullseye. This runs at odds with the shooter trying to ignore the bullseye and focus on the front sight. That being said, shooters far better than me, use six-oclock hold.



The zero for the sights need to be adjusted so that it hits the center of the bullseye for the distance you're shooting. From 25 to 50 yards, there is roughly a 1.5" elevation difference.

Sub six-oclock hold:

This is popular in ISSF/Olympic shooting for air pistol and 50meter free pistol. I prefer this for bullseye also, when shooting iron sights. It's very easy to ignore the bullseye and focus on the front sight and sight alignment. It does take some practice to get subconsciously used to how much white to have between front sight and the bullseye. I like a lot of white. Some shooters like a thin "line of white". In the beginning I would get vertical stringing, as my sight alignment was good, but I wasn't consistent with how far below the bullseye to hold.

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-16-2012, 7:31 PM
tbc's Avatar
tbc tbc is offline
Smite Me
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Irvine
Posts: 3,947
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

Hmmm. The sub six-o'clock hold is an interesting concept and is making a lot of sense. However, to use this hold, one would have to first install an adjustable rear sight and adjust it accordingly, I assume?

You have mentioned "iron sights"; does this mean sights without the dots? In my case, the dots made it harder for sight alignment.

Again, thank you both for your fruitful comments
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-16-2012, 7:52 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbc View Post
Hmmm. The sub six-o'clock hold is an interesting concept and is making a lot of sense. However, to use this hold, one would have to first install an adjustable rear sight and adjust it accordingly, I assume?

You have mentioned "iron sights"; does this mean sights without the dots? In my case, the dots made it harder for sight alignment.

Again, thank you both for your fruitful comments
Correct, all sight pictures need to be "zeroed" in for the correct distance, even for center of mass hold.

Those white dot, 3-dot sights tend not to be used for bullseye. If you can ignore the dots, and focus just on the black metal, you're fine, but the dots may be too distracting. A simple solution is to take a sharpie or sight black and just cover it up. The powder based sight black spray(from birchwood casey) is useful because you can just wipe off the black.

On a related note, an old school trick is to take a pencil, or red nail polish, and just make a SMALL mark on the front sight, enough so that it's noticeable, and makes it easier for you always maintain focus on the front sight. I believe it's a trick military rifle shooters used.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-16-2012, 8:22 PM
HighValleyRanch HighValleyRanch is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lake county, Northern CA
Posts: 284
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

On fixed sighted guns, it is possible to change the bullet weight and load to change the impact level as well, or file the front sight or change the front sight.

On my smith 586 with the red ramp front sight, I would use the black out spray so sights were all black.

Iron sights just refer to any open sights other than dot or telescopic or optical.

The bull on the ISSF standard pistol is larger then the conventional. So for me having a center hold on an standard pistol match one day, and a conventional match a few days later seemed simpler solution than trying to remember how much to dial in each pistol for sub six or six hold.

ISSF standard pistol (international federation style shooting) starts with the pistol at .45 degree down by the bench and you can only raise to aim when the target turns or command to fire or bell. Standard pistol is 60 shots compared to NRA Conventional with 90 shots. ISSF standard, and International Centerfire are shot at 25 meters, and Free pistol is shot at 50 meters.
International centerfire was one of my favorite matches. 30 shots on slow fire target, then 30 shots in duel mode. That is 3 seconds to take one shot when the target turns, back down to 45 degree, and you can cock a revolver with the other hand in between shot sequences. IIRC it was 7 seconds between each shot commencement, but it's been a while. Jakuda is correct in that in the "old" days, we were shooting on human shape targets, but politically correctness changed to big black bulleyes.

Although the pictures of the Sight picture are informational, the bulls looks way bigger than it actually would be in actual proportions for distances.

I started off with a High Standard Military Supermatic trophy, but wore it out after 10,000 rounds of Hi velocity .22. Frame cracked.
My next main .22 was a Ruger Mark I with a home brew trigger job, open or iron sights and custom grips. My centerfire pistol was usually a smith model .52 38 special wadcutter, and my .45 was either a 1911 or also a Smith 745 IPSC model. Revolvers were Smith model 17, 584 (4 inch) and 625.

My dad who shot in the 1950's used a Colt Officer Match with a short cocking action, single action only in .38 and a 1911. I think his .22 was a Colt Woodsman.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-16-2012, 8:26 PM
Drivedabizness's Avatar
Drivedabizness Drivedabizness is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 1,652
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

"sub six" is a popular technique with Olympic/bullseye shooters. I ALWAYS used that when I competed. An NRA bullseye match divides the target into 8-inch zones. If you zero for sub six you are focusing on a black front sight with a clean white background. Nothing is more important...except for trigger control.

The .22 record was set by an out-of-the-box S&W Model 41. So you don't have to have a "custom" gun but dear God, DO NOT buy a Ruger. Unless you heavily customize them (e.g. a Valquartzen trigger) their triggers are CRAP! Model 41's are hard to come by and are not cheap. But I would take one to Camp Perry (and I've been 4 times, on Uncle Sam's dime) without hesitation over anything else.

For a centerfire/.45 you are looking at some $$$. Colt Gold Cups be damned, there is not a stock pistol you could be competitive with. You need a gun that you know will hold groups. You need a gun that you feel comfortable with. You need a trigger that is set up the way you like it and an armorer who can keep it touched up.

You need high quality ammo that works in your gun. I saw a lot of civilians shooting "match" ammo at 50 yards and reloads at 25 just to save $$$.

I blackened my front sight with soot but made a scratch with a screwdriver to help me focus (until I switched to red dots). My personal best with a .22 is 893 (forget the x-count). Shot with a stock SW 41.

Plan on making a "dope" change between 25 and 50.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-16-2012, 8:48 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drivedabizness View Post
.....

The .22 record was set by an out-of-the-box S&W Model 41. So you don't have to have a "custom" gun but dear God, DO NOT buy a Ruger. Unless you heavily customize them (e.g. a Valquartzen trigger) their triggers are CRAP! .........
Luckily Rugers are easy to modify by yourself with Volquartsen aftermarket products.

There is nothing wrong with using a Ruger, even though people love to bash them.

But yes, Model 41s are very nice to use for the 22 portion. If you can find one, and have the ready $$$$ for it. Luckily, it's on the Olympic exemption list, so you can have it shipped to you.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-17-2012, 7:19 AM
Abel 138 Abel 138 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Fontana CA
Posts: 128
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Good thread!!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-17-2012, 5:17 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default TRIGGER PULL and completing the shot

The most important for last: trigger pull (and completing the shot)

This is for one handed shooting. However, many of the elements should transfer over logically to two-handed shooting.

The most useful tidbit I learned from a high master was every element of your shooting needs to be 100% repeatable (some leeway allowed for stance/posture change during a long 2700 match). Stance needs to be the same. Posture the same. Grip. grip pressure. Head position. Arm position. Finally, trigger finger position.

Your trigger finger needs to be on the trigger the same way each time and pull straight back. If your finger is in too deep, I find during rapid fire that it's really easy for my finger to push the trigger, therefore the pistol and bullet to the left (right handed shooter). If I put at the tip of my finger, I feel like I have to exert more effort to pull the trigger, sometimes pull the shot to the right. I have a routine that I go through to make sure I'm just about at the right spot on my trigger finger each time. I use visual cues (finger nail position to trigger edge), and tactile cues (feel the left edge of the trigger then back off just a bit) to make sure my finger is at the correct spot and applying proper straight back pressure. Find a method that works for you. Use a fine sharpie to mark it on your finger if you need to.

(There are different trigger pull methods where you start-stop-start/pulse, or if you have a two-stage trigger, or if you have a roll trigger, but I'm going to keep it simple and only discuss a continuous, smooth pull on a single stage trigger)

People talk about surprise-break when shooting. What does that mean in bullseye shooting? That means you have perfect sight alignment, but the front sight and rear sight in unison are moving around all over the target. Once you start applying trigger pressure you keeeeeeeeep going. Don't stop. The shot will "randomly" break in your wobble. You have to trust that your hold, and sight alignment will land you in the black. It will. Ideally you will land in the center: the 10-ring or X-ring. Once you try to "control" the exact moment the shot goes off: finger snatching a shot, sudden grip pressure moves pistol, over compensating for wobble, etc... the resulting shot will be a poor one. For good shooters, the poor shot will still end in the black, maybe the 8-ring (8" at 50 yards) or 9-ring (5.5"). For beginners, it'll be well into the white in the 6 or 5 ring.

For slow fire at 50 yards (or 25 yards), you have all the time in the world to fire 10 shots in 10 minutes (bullseye match rules). Or if you have a bet with a friend or rival, take all the time you need. Key tip I learned from the USAMU guide and a high master clinic: if ANYTHING FEELS WRONG, PUT THE GUN DOWN! You don't get bonus points, or man-points for finishing first. If you realize your trigger pull isn't smoothly going back, or you happen to focus on the black bullseye, or you feel like you are holding the gun up too long...lower the gun down. Keep your stance, posture, and grip on the gun, but lower your arm.
Corollary tip (from the USAMU guide): shooters who aim for a long time waiting for the shot to break, eventually start to rush, and just want to get the shot over with, get off any type of shot, so they can move on to the next shot. Avoid this mentality. Lower the gun, when you feel like you just need to get the shot off.

Timed and rapid fire. It's really easy to jerk the shots for these portions because you have 10 or 20 seconds to get off 5 shots at 25 yards. Biggest hurdles for me are to get the first shot off within a second of the buzzer or target turning, and to make sure I don't force the gun during recoil. If your stance, head position, and grip pressure are consistent, the gun will recoil, then drop naturally down in visual range at the same spot each time. Typical tactic is to take up the trigger slack on recoil and start applying pressure as the pistol drops back down.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-17-2012, 6:48 PM
huckberry668 huckberry668 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Gabriel Valley
Posts: 1,427
iTrader: 84 / 100%
Default

just as i thought CalGuns had become a 'SHTF', 'Glock vs xxx', 'which is better' forum this thread comes along. Kudos guys!
__________________
GCC
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
Don't count your hits and congratulate yourself, count your misses and know why.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-17-2012, 7:19 PM
HighValleyRanch HighValleyRanch is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lake county, Northern CA
Posts: 284
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

Talking about trigger control and practice, I was taught a unique but fantastic method for practicing trigger control and straight pull, anywhere any time WITHOUT even having your firearm to practice with.

Take a dowel and cut it to the length of your trigger pull. Put one end of the 1/4 inch wood dowel in the web of your hand where the beaver tail or backstrap over hang or back of gun would touch. Place the other end of the dowel right on the pad of your trigger finger, or what ever you decide to use for trigger contact.

Make a fist, as if holding a grip, can be tight or loose, however you normally grip.
Point the stick in the direction of an imaginary target (as if you were holding a gun), and get into your stance.
Then simply practice pulling the dowel STRAIGHT back into the web of your hand.
You will be able to visually verify that the pull is coming exactly straight back by watching the dowel to see that the tip doesn't go left or right.

Practicing this dowel pull will ingrain the feeling and memory of what a straight back pull should feel like.

Carry the dowel in your pocket and practice where ever and when ever you can!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-17-2012, 7:39 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch View Post
Talking about trigger control and practice, I was taught a unique but fantastic method for practicing trigger control and straight pull, anywhere any time WITHOUT even having your firearm to practice with..........
Carry the dowel in your pocket and practice where ever and when ever you can!
Whoa. That's a great idea!

*blowing the dust off my hand saw*
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-17-2012, 8:05 PM
pipboy's Avatar
pipboy pipboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 589
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Great thread packed with good info guys. Sticky worthy material for sure.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-17-2012, 8:20 PM
Buddhabelly's Avatar
Buddhabelly Buddhabelly is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,395
iTrader: 71 / 100%
Default

Jakuda is right, put the gun down and reset. When you are tired or not sure, put the gun down and restart the sequence because if you're not sure or tired, you shot will be off and you don't want to practice that, or waste a shot.

Another thing to do at practice: You have to know what you've just done after each shot, take mental notes of all the actions. Then look at the result and KNOW WHY your action landed the shot where it did.

You'll see many great shooters spend as much time, if not more, looking through their spotting scope,as they are shooting. Kinda funny to go to a range and see these guys shooting, looking through scope, and scampering around fetching their brass.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-17-2012, 8:37 PM
tbc's Avatar
tbc tbc is offline
Smite Me
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Irvine
Posts: 3,947
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pipboy View Post
Great thread packed with good info guys. Sticky worthy material for sure.
+1000

I'm going to take this Friday off and go to the range.

Last edited by tbc; 01-17-2012 at 8:50 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-17-2012, 9:07 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default DRILLS

This is the Marine Corps Pistol Team Workbook from Brian Zins website. People may remember him from Top Shot Season 2. He's won the most Bullseye national championships.

http://www.brianzins.com/wp-content/...m-Workbook.zip

These are the same drills that the team members use to train their new members. Their standards are high... "new" shooters are those who can't shoot at 2580-2600 out of 2700. Most shooters spend a lifetime trying to break into the 2565 (Master classification) average.

No cheating. Start from the beginning and work your way to the end. Be honest with yourself and the results of each attempt at the drills. It will take a long time. If you get stuck on a drill, take a break and do something else like dry fire or calling your shots. Don't train frustrated; ask other bullseye shooters to watch you and give you feedback.

25yd target bullseye is 5.5" in diameter. One can use these Caldwell targets:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/226...-package-of-50

Or use a standard NRA 25 yd timed-rapid fire pistol repair center (B-8C):

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/589...package-of-100

8" bullseye. 50yd slow fire pistol target repair centers (B-6C):
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/641...package-of-100

I may have a pdf of the various targets too. PM me with your email if you want it. Standard printer paper doesn't cut clean holes as well as the official construction-pasteboard type paper however.

Last edited by jakuda; 01-17-2012 at 9:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-18-2012, 11:15 AM
kTC xDEICIDEx's Avatar
kTC xDEICIDEx kTC xDEICIDEx is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: City of Angels
Posts: 409
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Excellent post! Thanks fellas
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-20-2012, 11:52 AM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default TRAINING AT HOME

We're getting hit by rainy weather here in the Bay Area, so I thought I'd compile some of my thoughts (and advice given to me by master and high master shooters) on how to train at home.

HighValleyRanch gave a great idea above about practicing with a cut dowel for trigger pull.

The standard advice is to train dry-fire at home. What is very important is "how" we train dry-fire. From what I hear on this board and some other bullseye shooters, a lot of us spend maybe 5-30 minutes sitting on the couch watching TV and going *click* *click* *click* 400 times, and then announce dry-fire training done for the day.

Quality trumps quantity, as the saying goes. I was taught to train dry-fire as if I were at the range or match shooting my slowfire strings. I turn off all distractions (as best I can). I get in my stance, head/arm positions, and grip the gun. In front of me the wall is blank, or I print out a super-scaled down bullseye for the distance I'm standing at. At 10 feet in front of the wall, I print out a ~0.60 inch diameter bullseye. Then I proceed to fire each shot slowly as I would at a match. I might only do 20 or 30 shots before taking a break or ending it for the day. Each shot, I evaluate what happened, where the "shot" would have ended up. Each shot, good or bad is analyzed, but quickly "forgotten". Just like in a match, whether it's bullseye or USPSA, the only important shot is the next one. Dwelling on bad past shots, tends to lead to poor future performance. Dwelling on good shots, can also be bad because we tend to think "oh this is super easy; X-rings all day", at which point we lose focus on the fundamentals that were necessary for the good shot...and well...a bad shot ensues. I say "forgotten" but after a session of dryfire, I try to write down my results, analysis, and goals in a journal. Mental training is also important for top performance regardless of sport. . I recommend Bassham's book "With Winning in Mind" for mental training. He's an Olympic gold medal winning rifle shooter. http://www.amazon.com/Winning-Mind-3...7091412&sr=8-1

More about mental stuff and journals later, if people are interested.

Other training at home:

I was advised to practice getting into my stance and standing still. Sounds dumb and boring, but it helps. Standing still is pretty bullseye and ISSF specific, but training every facet of shooting translates in USPSA/IDPA. In bullseye, we want to keep our heart rate LOOOOOW and our stance as still as possible. Typically new shooters will exhibit front/rear sway and/or right/left sway. During a match or at the range, we might not notice this, but at home, infront of a mirror, this is readily noticeable. If you want, you can quickly take a video clip of yourself.
Everyone's stance is specific to the shooter, but in general, you want your skeleton to provide support for your limbs, not your muscles. So you want to stand "at ease" erect, but not ramrod military straight. Knees typically are straight but not locked.

I sometimes spend time just practicing gripping my competition pistols. I don't get shoot them as much as I like these days, so I sometimes feel like my grip and trigger finger positions becomes inconsistent. I go over the visual and tactile cues that I wrote down in my journal and make sure I'm doing it right.

Develop shooting routine. Bullseye/issf shooters (usually) have a process that they go through everytime before a shot goes off. Usually it's 100% the same each time. Shooters customize their routine, often times writing it down on a card and bringing it with them to the range and matches. Everything is controlled. Cues on stance, grip, etc... Mental words of encouragement/tips to oneself. Eyes closed/resting, how many breaths to take, turn head, inhale for X# of beats, raise arm, partial exhale, acquire front sight, start shot. Yeah, we're an anal bunch.

What do other people do for training at home?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-20-2012, 12:14 PM
Whatisthis?'s Avatar
Whatisthis? Whatisthis? is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 1,639
iTrader: 46 / 100%
Default

Awesome info. Definitely picking up a Ruger 22/45 Mark iii soon. I vote this be stickied
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-20-2012, 12:31 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatisthis? View Post
Awesome info. Definitely picking up a Ruger 22/45 Mark iii soon. I vote this be stickied
Make sure to try the mark 3 target also. Personally I prefer the grip angle of the standard mark 3. Also, unless my info is out of date, the CA-available 22/45 doesn't have interchangeable grip panels, so I also find the plastic/default grips of the 22/45 to be too small/skinny.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 01-22-2012, 4:01 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default MENTAL TRAINING Part 1

(This post applies to all shooters, tactical and bullseye/issf alike.)

I touched upon mental training earlier. I believe mental discipline is key to being a top competitor in ANY sport. Top competitors don't let anything tweak them. They are cool as ice. They rarely blame their equipment for errant shots. Bad shots don't faze them; they always move on to the next shot. When there are cluster of shooters tied for the top spots, the cool cucumber continues to shoot 10s, while the others may slip up once or twice, and out of the running.

So what are some ways to train for these pressure situations? Playing pressure scenario games. Here are several that I learned from some top shooters.

1) Three-oh (3-0)
Score starts at 0-0. Pick your distance, pick your target. You and one other training buddy are on the line. You each shoot at the target (bullseye, uspsa target). Whoever shot the better shot gets 1 point. 1-0. Tie shots are draws. Shoot again. Then, if the person who had 0 points shot the better shot, the score resets to 0-0. If the 1-0 shooter the better shot, he gets another point:2-0. Repeat. Person who reaches 3-0, wins the game. Essentially the winner has to shoot 3 consecutive shots (after reset) better than his opponent. Against evenly matched opponents, this can last a LONG time. Put some money or pushups on the line, and this is a good way to train for pressure scenario.

2) First to 10. # of players: 2 to any number. Pick your target. Pick your distance. All shooters shoot at their own pace. Every time a shooter shoots a 10 (or you can make this tough and make it X-ring), he yells it out, and his updated total of 10s. First to ten 10s wins. Real tough. You have to fight the urge to shoot faster to catch up, not give up if someone takes the lead, and make each shot count.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-27-2012, 3:06 PM
jakuda jakuda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 518
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default Mental Training part 2

Some key points I took from Bassham's (Olympic gold medal rifle shooter) book "With Winning in Mind" was to focus on "process" and to use a shooting journal.

For one of his PGA tour clients, he had the pro-golfer repeat to himself "process is primary". This means do not focus on the past shot and its result. Do not focus on the scores you need to shoot in the future to keep in 1st place or catch up to the leader. Focus on the process that you must go through to execute a good shot for the upcoming shot. Stance, grip, ball placement, waggle, backswing, swing, follow through etc... Very similar to what should go through the mind of a shooter.

Sounds easy. But this needs to be trained. Those pressure "games" mentioned in my previous post help.
During a match, it is insanely difficult to stop thinking about scores. At my last match, after every string, I updated in my mind my running total, and the scores I needed to keep shooting to break into the next classification level. Each shot I worried about throwing a bullet into the white and ruining my score, instead of what was really necessary to accomplish a good shot. Luckily, I barely broke the minimum to get reclassified, but I shot well BELOW my average. So I need to work on this myself.

Shooting journal. This is more than just logging the results of your practice. You write your goals, your successes, stuff your learned after each session. Always positive and forward looking. Another thing that's hard to keep up with, but very well worth the effort.


Here is my best slowfire string to date in a registered match. 50yards, 1 handed, 10 shots, 10 minutes. Bullseye is 8", 10-ring is 3.3". If only it were that easy every single time...

Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:24 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.