Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-14-2018, 2:51 PM
mikeinla mikeinla is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Los Angeles(N. Hollywood)
Posts: 1,899
iTrader: 219 / 100%
Arrow Only can sell 6 firearms a year???

I am cleaning out my safe and have about 14 firearms to sell. I am sure MOST people are not going to want to buy more than one. My LGS said I am ONLY allowed to sell 6 firearms a year?????? WTF????
I am NOT able to sell all of these firearms when I legally purchased, registered them and payed my California Extortion fee of the 10 day hold period???
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-14-2018, 2:55 PM
Maulerrr's Avatar
Maulerrr Maulerrr is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Coachella Valley
Posts: 2,045
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Perhaps that's just their store policy for doing PPTs for you, or putting it up on their display shelves to sell for you.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-14-2018, 2:58 PM
agarcia211 agarcia211 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 74
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

My understanding is 6 sale transactions per calendar year. You can sell multiple in one sale, but you are only allowed 6 a year. You can sale 6 from now till Dec 31, and then six more starting 2019
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-14-2018, 3:01 PM
nadodave's Avatar
nadodave nadodave is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 437
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

There's some law about going over 5 or 6 PPTs per year and potentially appearing to be an unlicensed gun seller. I think it only involves handguns, and is not # of handguns, but # of PPT's

Someone will be along with more information, I'm sure.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-14-2018, 3:01 PM
Barbarosa's Avatar
Barbarosa Barbarosa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 2,168
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

You can sell as many as you want, however you are limited to less than 6 PPTs for handguns (that means 5) per year. Unlimited guns per transaction.

Rifles is "infrequent" with no numerical value set.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-14-2018, 3:07 PM
Quiet's Avatar
Quiet Quiet is online now
retired Goon
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Bernardino County
Posts: 29,966
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeinla View Post
I am cleaning out my safe and have about 14 firearms to sell. I am sure MOST people are not going to want to buy more than one. My LGS said I am ONLY allowed to sell 6 firearms a year?????? WTF????
I am NOT able to sell all of these firearms when I legally purchased, registered them and payed my California Extortion fee of the 10 day hold period???
Handguns = less than 6 (5 or less) transactions per calendar year. [PC 16730(a)(1)]

Long guns = occasionally and without regularity. [PC 16730(a)(2)]

Transaction = any number done under one sale/transfer to a single buyer/transferee. [PC 16730(c)]





Penal Code 26500
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless the person has been issued a license pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(b) Any person violating this article is guilty of a misdemeanor.

Penal Code 25620
(a) Section 26500 does not apply to the infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(b) As used in this section, “infrequent” has the meaning provided in Section 16730.

Penal Code 16730
(a) As used in Section 31815 and in Division 6 (commencing with Section 26500) of Title 4, “infrequent” means:
(1) For handguns, less than six transactions per calendar year.
(2) For firearms other than handguns, occasional and without regularity.
(c) As used in this section, “transaction” means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of handguns.
__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-14-2018, 3:31 PM
Junkie's Avatar
Junkie Junkie is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 4,847
iTrader: 22 / 100%
Default

I'm curious as to whether it's ever been enforced against someone who sells a bunch to a bunch of buyers over a short time period, rather than against someone who buys/sells/buys/sells/buys/sells
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
A real live woman is more expensive than a fleshlight. Which would you rather have?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-14-2018, 3:40 PM
M1NM M1NM is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: West Covina
Posts: 7,756
iTrader: 54 / 100%
Default

Quiet has it right. I did 7 handgun transactions before I knew about the law. Never got in trouble. They were probably happy to have them now registered as it was mostly stuff I had bought in the 70s & 80s.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-14-2018, 5:15 PM
AtomicOrange's Avatar
AtomicOrange AtomicOrange is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Orange Co.
Posts: 357
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
I'm curious as to whether it's ever been enforced against someone who sells a bunch to a bunch of buyers over a short time period, rather than against someone who buys/sells/buys/sells/buys/sells
I once asked a well-known attorney about that. He said while it does expose one to prosecution, he knew of no one either investigated or arrested, except for LEO selling many, many off-roster pistols.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-14-2018, 6:00 PM
Quiet's Avatar
Quiet Quiet is online now
retired Goon
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Bernardino County
Posts: 29,966
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicOrange View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
I'm curious as to whether it's ever been enforced against someone who sells a bunch to a bunch of buyers over a short time period, rather than against someone who buys/sells/buys/sells/buys/sells
I once asked a well-known attorney about that. He said while it does expose one to prosecution, he knew of no one either investigated or arrested, except for LEO selling many, many off-roster pistols.
Several years ago, CA DOJ BOF admitted that detection and enforcement was subpar. But, they would be working on methods to improving detection/enforcement.

Under Federal laws/regulations...
When transferring 2+ handguns or 2+ semi-auto rifles chambered in a caliber larger than .22, within 5 business days through the same FFL, that FFL must report the transfers to BATFE.
BATFE will then flag the parties involved and do a follow up investigation if they get reported again.
^This is how the Feds catch people acting as unlicensed dealers.
__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-14-2018, 6:33 PM
TurboChrisB's Avatar
TurboChrisB TurboChrisB is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Anaheim Hills
Posts: 5,098
iTrader: 79 / 100%
Default

You're fine. The purpose of the law is control. It's just like cars. You're limited to how many cars you can sell a year also....unless you get a resale license.

They had to pick a number that they consider you acting as a dealer if you go over. As long as you are legitimately selling your privately owned firearms you'll be fine as we all know that the state can NOT actually dictate to you how many personal items you can sell in a year. (well they can try but good luck getting a conviction)

Hell, I bought a couple guns from a guy on this forum about 10 years ago that listed over 50 firearms at one time as he was liquidating a collection.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-20-2018, 6:00 PM
Hhsohn Hhsohn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 144
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

So... Would pistols purchased under your 03FFL not count towards that 5 transactions?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-22-2018, 7:26 PM
Milsurp1's Avatar
Milsurp1 Milsurp1 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Not in California
Posts: 3,098
iTrader: 32 / 100%
Default

It isn’t purchases that California’s 5 outbound transfer limit focuses on, it is outgoing transfers.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-22-2018, 7:52 PM
kingransom's Avatar
kingransom kingransom is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Ventura county
Posts: 2,706
iTrader: 152 / 100%
Default

I was under the impression that PPT you can purchase as many as you want. How would somebody go about purchasing a collection from somebody that has either passed away or wants to just get rid of it in general?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-04-2019, 8:10 PM
prkprisoner's Avatar
prkprisoner prkprisoner is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Vacaville
Posts: 361
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default BATFE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Under Federal laws/regulations...
When transferring 2+ handguns or 2+ semi-auto rifles chambered in a caliber larger than .22, within 5 business days through the same FFL, that FFL must report the transfers to BATFE.
BATFE will then flag the parties involved and do a follow up investigation if they get reported again.
^This is how the Feds catch people acting as unlicensed dealers.
Quiet, can you cite where this information comes from? I'm selling off some of my collection and don't want to run afoul of the law.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-04-2019, 8:33 PM
prkprisoner's Avatar
prkprisoner prkprisoner is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Vacaville
Posts: 361
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

I think I found the answer to my own question. It looks like the FFL reporting requirements to BATFE for multiple gun transactions only applies if the buyer is the same person. As far as I can tell it is not required when the same seller is selling to multiple different people. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...firearms-sales
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:45 PM
B.J.F.'s Avatar
B.J.F. B.J.F. is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Prescott Valley, Arizona
Posts: 652
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

If your off-loading your collection, I wouldn’t worry about it. They are looking for multiple instances. Just sell your off roster stuff via PPT, the rest can go through gun broker via FFL which is not PPT. Firearm will be logged into the dealers possession and sold as if he was the dealer.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-06-2019, 9:04 AM
Blade Gunner's Avatar
Blade Gunner Blade Gunner is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,425
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
I'm curious as to whether it's ever been enforced against someone who sells a bunch to a bunch of buyers over a short time period, rather than against someone who buys/sells/buys/sells/buys/sells
Cops have been charged with as unlicensed firearms dealers for doing this.
__________________
If you find yourself in a fair fight, you're doing it all wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-06-2019, 9:11 AM
Mayor McRifle's Avatar
Mayor McRifle Mayor McRifle is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Central Valley
Posts: 7,647
iTrader: 23 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
I'm curious as to whether it's ever been enforced against someone who sells a bunch to a bunch of buyers over a short time period, rather than against someone who buys/sells/buys/sells/buys/sells
Meet Vasken Gourdikian:
https://www.pasadenastarnews.com/201...-100-firearms/

Highlights of note:
Quote:
A former Pasadena police lieutenant agreed to a plea deal Friday, Sept. 7, to two federal felonies tied to the illegal sale of more than 100 guns over three years.
Quote:
Gourdikian regularly purchased guns from gun shops, using his privilege as a police officer, and would then create online postings on Calguns.net to sell the guns.
Quote:
After nearly three years of these illegal sales, federal agents were able to catch Gourdikian during one of his operations.

On Feb. 8, 2017, Gourdikian made a posting on Calguns.net for a 12-gauge shotgun, according to the plea agreement. The gun was “new in the box” and “never fired” with a listed price of “$700 firm,” Gourdikian wrote in the online post. The next day, Gourdikian met a customer at a gun shop in Pomona who bought the shotgun for $700. The customer was actually an undercover agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
__________________
Anchors Aweigh


Last edited by Mayor McRifle; 01-06-2019 at 9:16 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-06-2019, 9:53 AM
Paul_R's Avatar
Paul_R Paul_R is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Norcal
Posts: 2,840
iTrader: 59 / 100%
Default

Moral of the story, if you're selling off a collection use multiple FFL's
__________________
Fear is a social disease

Got a jury summons? Know your rights! http://fija.org/
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-06-2019, 10:27 AM
boltstop's Avatar
boltstop boltstop is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 882
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Even from a gun grabbers point of view this is a stupid law as it requires you to keep firearms when you might otherwise wish to dispose of them e.g. you get married and don’t want guns in the house with children, you acquire a health condition that requires you to give up shooting, you are going to relocate to another country, your spouse dies and you don’t want the guns, you simply are no longer interested in shooting etc.

All of the above circumstances would legitimately mean the disposal of multiple firearms in a short period of time.

Last edited by boltstop; 01-06-2019 at 10:31 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-06-2019, 11:23 AM
sbo80's Avatar
sbo80 sbo80 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,222
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

dumping a collection, or large part of a collection, could easily fall under "occasional and without regularity" if it's long guns. That part of the code is vague enough that it would be very difficult to try to convict someone for, unless there's a pattern over time. Handguns they seem to set a limit of 5 explicitly. Though that's CA PC, so if you transferred to an out of state FFL not sure they could ever be aware to count it.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-06-2019, 12:45 PM
Milsurp1's Avatar
Milsurp1 Milsurp1 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Not in California
Posts: 3,098
iTrader: 32 / 100%
Default

^^even if you sold through multiple FFL’s it all gets entered in the same California computer system, so you don’t hide anything.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-06-2019, 11:19 PM
B.J.F.'s Avatar
B.J.F. B.J.F. is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Prescott Valley, Arizona
Posts: 652
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Yeah but there is a difference between PPT and FFL Transfer where you shipped the gun to an FFL for the individual to DROS. The Transfer only shows up as a purchase from an FFL, same process as buying from that FFL
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-09-2019, 7:59 PM
Pardini Pardini is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,204
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Handguns = less than 6 (5 or less) transactions per calendar year. [PC 16730(a)(1)]

Long guns = occasionally and without regularity. [PC 16730(a)(2)]

Transaction = any number done under one sale/transfer to a single buyer/transferee. [PC 16730(c)]





Penal Code 26500
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless the person has been issued a license pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(b) Any person violating this article is guilty of a misdemeanor.

Penal Code 25620
(a) Section 26500 does not apply to the infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(b) As used in this section, “infrequent” has the meaning provided in Section 16730.

Penal Code 16730
(a) As used in Section 31815 and in Division 6 (commencing with Section 26500) of Title 4, “infrequent” means:
(1) For handguns, less than six transactions per calendar year.
(2) For firearms other than handguns, occasional and without regularity.
(c) As used in this section, “transaction” means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of handguns.

How are sales tracked? If guns are sold through Gunbroker and are shipped out of CA to the buyers FFL, What links the transaction back to the seller in CA?
__________________
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Excellent! I am thinking about it as well and I only have 4 points and an unfortunate "match bump" up to expert classification where I am far less "competitive" with my peers there.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-10-2019, 2:06 PM
BigBamBoo's Avatar
BigBamBoo BigBamBoo is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: *NDBBM*
Posts: 5,194
iTrader: 52 / 100%
Default

I am assuming this only applies to selling to a CA residents?

If not....oops.

.
__________________
Bring hay for my horse....wine for my men....and mud for my turtle!

What do you hear ???...... Nothing but the rain. Well grab your gun and bring in the cat.

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
- Sigmund Freud

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
It makes it bigger and longer.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-10-2019, 6:12 PM
BeAuMaN's Avatar
BeAuMaN BeAuMaN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,193
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Handguns = less than 6 (5 or less) transactions per calendar year. [PC 16730(a)(1)]

Long guns = occasionally and without regularity. [PC 16730(a)(2)]

Transaction = any number done under one sale/transfer to a single buyer/transferee. [PC 16730(c)]





Penal Code 26500
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless the person has been issued a license pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(b) Any person violating this article is guilty of a misdemeanor.

Penal Code 25620
(a) Section 26500 does not apply to the infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(b) As used in this section, “infrequent” has the meaning provided in Section 16730.

Penal Code 16730
(a) As used in Section 31815 and in Division 6 (commencing with Section 26500) of Title 4, “infrequent” means:
(1) For handguns, less than six transactions per calendar year.
(2) For firearms other than handguns, occasional and without regularity.
(c) As used in this section, “transaction” means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of handguns.
There's also a list the exceptions, though whether that's helpful to the OP I don't know:
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...r=1.&article=1.

Reading that, it doesn't seem to apply to sales to out of state retailers and residents (Though I didn't read those sections very closely)

If you're a Collector (FFL03 + CoE), you can sell as many Curio & Relic firearms (including Handguns) as you want without a dealer license, but only to a dealer.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 8:20 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy