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  #121  
Old 08-25-2017, 9:18 PM
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^ Seems, to me, like that complies with the letter of the law.

They never said that devices to make the stock longer have to look pretty.
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  #122  
Old 08-25-2017, 9:43 PM
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The muzzle brake will get Tavor over 30" but you have to pin it.

http://mfiap.com/i-23899612-4-75-lon...6-or-5-45.html

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  #123  
Old 08-26-2017, 9:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortifer View Post
I was also looking in way how to extend the incredible shrinking Tavor to 30"

As others pointed out, there aren't any good options to extend the buttpad yet and to pin /unpin a muzzle device is PITA.

Disclaimers:
Obligatory: I'm not lawyer and this is not legal advice. This is MHO on how I will try to stay compliant with the new DOJ regulations.

Warning, I don't know how much stress and or recoil can the rail or the rail mounting holes on the body of the Tavor take. Using this mod, the firearm remains functional but firing the firearm with this modification might damage the firearm.

Warning, this mod places a rather sharp rail where normally your face and / or neck comes close to / touches the firearm. Firing the firearm with this modification might cause injury or death.



I'm going to extend a Picatinny rail about 4" past the buttpad and mount another buttstock to it.

I found AimSports 12in. X 0.64in. Uncut Rail. I attached it with two 1/2 Inch High 14-slot Flat Top Riser Mounts. One is mounted to the rear of the rail on the Tavor for the 12 Inch rail clearance and the second one clamps them together. I already had a junk buttstock that I cut down to 4". I drilled holes trough the 12inch rail to attach the 4" buttstock with screws.


The new buttstock is not fordable, collapsible and is attached with screws like many other buttstocks.


Yes, it will look ugly but it will give me time to see if any good product comes along without having to modify my original Tavor parts.


There is also AimSports 12in. X 0.31in. Uncut Rail, it is is too thick to to sit flush with with the Tavor rail without a riser. You could gently clamp it but I do't think it would take much to damage the Tavor rail.


I used 14 slot, about 5" long risers for durability , the use of too short risers, optic mounts ,etc. can cause damage to the parts when lets say storing the gun standing up.




For Tavor X95 IWI sells a thin buttpad that one could extend 5 or so inches to make it compliant but I haven't found any affordable buttpads for Tavor SAR that I could alter.

Both 16.5" barrel Tavors without any muzzle devices are 26 1/8″ long and since both butt pads are made of rubber, down the road with wear and tear I don't think it's hard to lose 1/4 and you have SBR. Therefore I would not mind if someone came up with 1/2-1" thicker buttpad
Do you have a picture of this mod? Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Last edited by jok5tr; 08-26-2017 at 10:50 PM..
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  #124  
Old 08-26-2017, 1:30 PM
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Default Garands?

I have been through this thread, and several others, and have not seen an answer to my question.

How does this law affect M1 Garands? Garands do not have a detachable magaznine but use a separate en bloc "clip." This does not seem to be addressed in the regulations.

The regs do not seem to affect Garands but I realze how bureaucrats can stretch definitions.

Any answers?
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  #125  
Old 08-26-2017, 1:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sac-gunslinger View Post
I have been through this thread, and several others, and have not seen an answer to my question.

How does this law affect M1 Garands? Garands do not have a detachable magaznine but use a separate en bloc "clip." This does not seem to be addressed in the regulations.

The regs do not seem to affect Garands but I realze how bureaucrats can stretch definitions.

Any answers?
C&R is not effected because they are featureless rifles. The only thing that effects SKS, Garands, VZ-52's, MAS, FN49, Hakim, Ljungman, M1A, M1 Carbine, etc. that do not have pistol grips is the addition of a flash hider. Never use a flash hider on those rifles or you have an AW.
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  #126  
Old 08-26-2017, 2:00 PM
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So if you have a featureless bullpup with a non perm attached muzzle device, you cannot register it as an AW? and the only option is to permanently attach the muzzle device? Am I correct here?
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  #127  
Old 08-26-2017, 2:02 PM
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Originally Posted by 264Grendel View Post
So if you have a featureless bullpup with a non perm attached muzzle device, you cannot register it as an AW? and the only option is to permanently attach the muzzle device? Am I correct here?
No, it's not clear at all. People have interpreted it differently and there is an open question. See my thread, this is the "RAW million dollar question".

I would wait and see.
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  #128  
Old 08-26-2017, 2:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
No, it's not clear at all. People have interpreted it differently and there is an open question. See my thread, this is the "RAW million dollar question".

I would wait and see.

Okay. Thanks for the reply.
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  #129  
Old 08-26-2017, 4:34 PM
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M1 Garand has a fixed internal magazine. The en bloc clip is a component but not the magazine itself.
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  #130  
Old 08-26-2017, 5:32 PM
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Thanks for this thread. My question is about the photos and firearms other than AR's. For example, a folding stock AK can be "pinned" internally open and it looks exactly like an unpinned AK. How will the DOJ know it's fully extended in a photo? And about serial numbers...I have seen factory built AK's that use just the trunion number, and the factory receiver has NO serial number. In fact, it could be a home built flat for all anyone would know. How will the DOJ know that is the serial number of the AK? It was made at the CUGIR factory and the ATF let it be imported like that and sold using the trunion number as the serial number. And the US importer markings are on the rear site block too, NOT on the receiver. And regarding a FAL, the mag catch has a tiny 4-40 threaded pin that keeps the mag in place, it needs to be backed out to release the mag. It's so small you can hardly see the dang pin. I doubt it will be picked up by a photo. Again, it looks just like an un "bullet buttoned" FAL. How will the DOJ interpret that photo?
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  #131  
Old 08-26-2017, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Ford8N View Post
Thanks for this thread. My question is about the photos and firearms other than AR's. For example, a folding stock AK can be "pinned" internally open and it looks exactly like an unpinned AK. How will the DOJ know it's fully extended in a photo? And about serial numbers...I have seen factory built AK's that use just the trunion number, and the factory receiver has NO serial number. In fact, it could be a home built flat for all anyone would know. How will the DOJ know that is the serial number of the AK? It was made at the CUGIR factory and the ATF let it be imported like that and sold using the trunion number as the serial number. And the US importer markings are on the rear site block too, NOT on the receiver. And regarding a FAL, the mag catch has a tiny 4-40 threaded pin that keeps the mag in place, it needs to be backed out to release the mag. It's so small you can hardly see the dang pin. I doubt it will be picked up by a photo. Again, it looks just like an un "bullet buttoned" FAL. How will the DOJ interpret that photo?
It's going to be a major cluster f--k for non AR weapons.
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  #132  
Old 08-26-2017, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
It's going to be a major cluster f--k for non AR weapons.
It certainly is. I feel less bad now, that I never got any other rifle platforms before the deadline, all I got were ARs. For a while I was wishing I got some variety, but at this point I'm kind of glad I didn't.

It's pretty clear from DOJs repetitive use of the term "bullet button" in their regulations that they really only thought about ARs when they were writing it.
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  #133  
Old 08-26-2017, 8:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
It certainly is. I feel less bad now, that I never got any other rifle platforms before the deadline, all I got were ARs. For a while I was wishing I got some variety, but at this point I'm kind of glad I didn't.

It's pretty clear from DOJs repetitive use of the term "bullet button" in their regulations that they really only thought about ARs when they were writing it.
I saw that too. I kinda feel sorry for the gun hating cops and DA's. They will be wasting a lot of tax dollars sitting in court rooms as they lose to defense attorneys. Nobody will understand these laws and they are rife with loop holes.
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  #134  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by inferno999 View Post
M1 Garand has a fixed internal magazine. The en bloc clip is a component but not the magazine itself.
Thank you for your response.


That is how I see it also but wonder how the bureaucrats in Sacto have decided. Has anything been said b them about this?
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  #135  
Old 08-26-2017, 11:10 PM
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See definition M in the DOJ regulations - it says that en bloc clips and stripper clips are not detachable magazines. So m1 garands can have flash suppressors, and can't be registered.
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  #136  
Old 08-27-2017, 9:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
C&R is not effected because they are featureless rifles. The only thing that effects SKS, Garands, VZ-52's, MAS, FN49, Hakim, Ljungman, M1A, M1 Carbine, etc. that do not have pistol grips is the addition of a flash hider. Never use a flash hider on those rifles or you have an AW.
C&R status doesn't exempt a firearm from AW status.

Something like an early Armalite AR15 that was semiauto, BB'd and brought into the state after BBs became a thing, would still be an AW even though it would be C&R. I'm not saying one of these exists in CA, just an example of something old enough to be C&R, and featured, but not listed. Given that Yugo M59/66 can retain C&R status with a different muzzle device, I suspect a BB wouldn't change C&R status (but I could be wrong). I'm sure that there's *something* in that category.

Even a C&R SBR/SBS isn't AW exempt.
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  #137  
Old 08-27-2017, 9:49 AM
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Default What does this mean?

I'm confused.... I'm planning on going featureless does that mean I need to remove the hand guards??


"A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer’s hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel."

IMG_0619.jpg
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  #138  
Old 08-27-2017, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Bourkeco View Post
I'm confused.... I'm planning on going featureless does that mean I need to remove the hand guards??


"A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer’s hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel."

Attachment 634755
Nope.

A barrel shroud isn't an assault weapon feature for rifles, it's only an AW feature for pistols.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 08-27-2017 at 10:07 AM..
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  #139  
Old 08-27-2017, 10:14 AM
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This whole thing is a freaking nightmare.... Thank You!
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  #140  
Old 08-27-2017, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
C&R status doesn't exempt a firearm from AW status.

Something like an early Armalite AR15 that was semiauto, BB'd and brought into the state after BBs became a thing, would still be an AW even though it would be C&R. I'm not saying one of these exists in CA, just an example of something old enough to be C&R, and featured, but not listed. Given that Yugo M59/66 can retain C&R status with a different muzzle device, I suspect a BB wouldn't change C&R status (but I could be wrong). I'm sure that there's *something* in that category.

Even a C&R SBR/SBS isn't AW exempt.
Yeah, you are right there is no exemption for C&R but you are talking to a collector with 3/4 of my 30 year collection being C&R. The fact is that 99% of it is not effected. SP1's just recently became C&R, and besides an occasional M1 carbine with a folder or some oddball that should have been registered in 89 or 2000 there is not a big deal to worry about.

I'm active on the C&R forum and I have put up threads there just calming us old people down because they typically don't have many modern weapons and they don't need the aggravation of having to second guess if their FN49 is somehow an AW.
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  #141  
Old 08-27-2017, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
See definition M in the DOJ regulations - it says that en bloc clips and stripper clips are not detachable magazines. So m1 garands can have flash suppressors, and can't be registered.
That's right, but there are pitfalls for other C&R, and plenty of gray areas. For instance, rifles like an FN49, Ljungman or Hakim, MAS 49/56, SVT-40 etc. all have removable magazines. They were never intended to be removed, they simply have a tab or button to remove what is considered (and was considered by the designers and the militarizes that used the rifle) to be a fixed magazine meant to be fed from stripper clips.

So these rifles with muzzle devices that can loosely be considered "flash hiders" could be AW. Most have muzzle devices that we all insist are brakes, but the truth is no one knows what the original designs intended back in the 40's and 50's. That knowledge has literally passed from this world.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
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  #142  
Old 08-27-2017, 6:30 PM
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Ok. Thanks for all the input folks. So, for build I made with a serialized lower bought this year, I have gone with the modified bolt catch approach.This gun is a range gun. I added a BAD lever and put the mil spec mag release button back on. It also has all the evil features. When looking at the flowchart the first question is " is it semiauto?". Answer= no. So everything else is good ...Yes???
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  #143  
Old 08-27-2017, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by stewwmann View Post
Ok. Thanks for all the input folks. So, for build I made with a serialized lower bought this year, I have gone with the modified bolt catch approach.This gun is a range gun. I added a BAD lever and put the mil spec mag release button back on. It also has all the evil features. When looking at the flowchart the first question is " is it semiauto?". Answer= no. So everything else is good ...Yes???
That may not be CA legal.

In the past, AWB of 2000, CA DOJ viewed firearms with similar devices as "broken" semi-auto and not single-shot firearms.

If you go this route, it should be done after consulting your lawyers.
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  #144  
Old 08-27-2017, 7:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Nope.

A barrel shroud isn't an assault weapon feature for rifles, it's only an AW feature for pistols.
Define a barrel shroud please .
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  #145  
Old 08-27-2017, 7:48 PM
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Define a barrel shroud please .
11 CCR 5471
For purposes of Penal Code section 30900 and Articles 2 and 3 of this Chapter the following definitions shall apply:
(jj) “Shroud” means a heat shield that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel, allowing the shooter to fire the weapon with one hand and grasp the firearm over the barrel with the other hand without burning the shooter's hand. A slide that encloses the barrel is not a shroud.
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  #146  
Old 08-27-2017, 7:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
11 CCR 5471
For purposes of Penal Code section 30900 and Articles 2 and 3 of this Chapter the following definitions shall apply:
(jj) “Shroud” means a heat shield that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel, allowing the shooter to fire the weapon with one hand and grasp the firearm over the barrel with the other hand without burning the shooter's hand. A slide that encloses the barrel is not a shroud.
What about B&T TP9? Steyr SPP?
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  #147  
Old 08-27-2017, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
What about B&T TP9? Steyr SPP?
Both have barrel shrouds.

It encircles the barrel, isn't a slide, and allows you to grasp around the barrel with your support hand.
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  #148  
Old 08-27-2017, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
What about B&T TP9? Steyr SPP?
Both have barrel shrouds.

It encircles the barrel, isn't a slide, and allows you to grasp around the barrel with your support hand.
AFAIK...
The B&T TP9 / Steyr SPP has a upper and lower receiver. (similar to MAC style firearms)
Both receiver halves cover the barrel, with only the front end of the barrel being exposed.
If there is an attachment over the exposed portion of the barrel, then it would have a "barrel shroud".

Also, doesn't the B&T TP9 and Steyr SPP have a "threaded barrel" now?
^This is due to the definition change to "threaded barrel" to include locking lugs. [11 CCR 5471(rr)]



11 CCR 5471
For purposes of Penal Code section 30900 and Articles 2 and 3 of this Chapter the following definitions shall apply:
(rr) “Threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer” means a threaded barrel able to accept a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer, and includes a threaded barrel with any one of those features already mounted on it. Some firearms have “lugs” in lieu of threads on the end of the barrel. These lugs are used to attach some versions of silencers. For purposes of this definition a lugged barrel is the same as a threaded barrel.
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  #149  
Old 08-27-2017, 8:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jok5tr View Post
Do you have a picture of this mod? Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I have edited my original post and added pictures.
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  #150  
Old 08-27-2017, 9:04 PM
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Quiet, if a barrel shrouds can only be a separate part than the receivers, would that mean a monolithic ar upper doesn't have a shroud?
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  #151  
Old 08-28-2017, 1:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Quiet, if a barrel shrouds can only be a separate part than the receivers, would that mean a monolithic ar upper doesn't have a shroud?
I'm not sure because CA DOJ is vague.

AFAIK, if it's part of the reciever then it's not a "shroud".
But, I could be wrong. Since, some people consider the TEC9 to have a "shroud" even though the "shroud" portion is part of the receiver.
So, consult your lawyer and go with what you are comfortable with in defending in court.
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  #152  
Old 08-28-2017, 5:51 PM
TheHolyLancer TheHolyLancer is offline
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Hi, I have an ar-15 lower that was brought, then assembled with a PSA rifle kit (IE complete upper, LPK, stock) and finished off in 2016 in AW state with bullet button.

what do I register it with? its not home built as the lower was transferred to me and not form 80%.

Also, what happens if I say change the handguard down the line? I know you cant remove the BB, but what about barrel length with a new barrel and handguard or the entire upper? obviously not making NFA or any of that.
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  #153  
Old 08-28-2017, 6:23 PM
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Your assumptions are correct. It's not a "home build", so you would register it as the brand and serial stamped on the lower.

No problem making changes to the rifle after registering, as long as it stays legal and keeps the magazine release.
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  #154  
Old 08-29-2017, 8:14 PM
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Wait, so an AR pistol with the usual free float hand guard has a "barrel shroud?"
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  #155  
Old 08-29-2017, 8:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inferno999 View Post
Wait, so an AR pistol with the usual free float hand guard has a "barrel shroud?"
Yes, that's why they need a fixed magazine (or a bullet button if being registered as an AW). That, and the fact that the magazine attaches somewhere outside the grip.

Those two reasons are why there's never been such thing as "featureless" for AR pistols.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 08-29-2017 at 8:18 PM..
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  #156  
Old 08-29-2017, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inferno999 View Post
Wait, so an AR pistol with the usual free float hand guard has a "barrel shroud?"
This is the way the law reads.
Pistols:
  1. A semiautomatic pistol that does not have a fixed magazine but has any one of the following:
    1. A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
    2. A second handgrip.
    3. A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer’s hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
    4. The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
  2. A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
  3. And this is the way the actual penal code reads as far as what the definition of a shroud is. (y)
  4. "Shroud means a heat shield that is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel allowing the shooter to fire the weapon with one hand and gasp the firearm over the barrel with the other hand without burning the shooter's hand. A slide that encloses the barrel is not a shroud.

  5. The key phrase her is (A semiautomatic pistol that does not have a fixed magazine) So yes the way I read it a free float handguard seems to surly meet the definition of a shroud. But it seems that if your semi automatic pistol has a fixed Mag you can keep the evil features. (Maybe)

Last edited by wavecraft; 08-29-2017 at 9:15 PM..
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  #157  
Old 08-29-2017, 9:12 PM
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^ Yep, and that was true even before SB880. The only difference is that before SB880, a bullet button counted as "fixed", and now it doesn't. But a rail/handguard on an AR pistol has always been a "barrel shroud" ever since the original features-based AW ban. Again, that's why all semi-auto AR pistols that weren't RAWs have always (since 2000) had bullet buttons

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 08-29-2017 at 9:15 PM..
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  #158  
Old 08-29-2017, 9:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
^ Yep, and that was true even before SB880. The only difference is that before SB880, a bullet button counted as "fixed", and now it doesn't. But a rail/handguard on an AR pistol has always been a "barrel shroud" ever since the original features-based AW ban. Again, that's why all semi-auto AR pistols that weren't RAWs have always (since 2000) had bullet buttons
Correct: But just so every one knows The post I made with the regs. was copy and pasted straight from the file and print Notice publication/registration submission, dated May 12, 2017 1:43PM
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  #159  
Old 08-30-2017, 7:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Your assumptions are correct. It's not a "home build", so you would register it as the brand and serial stamped on the lower.

No problem making changes to the rifle after registering, as long as it stays legal and keeps the magazine release.
Hmm how about proof of what it looks like? I don't have pics from then, just now.

Like, can they say they don't trust me it was made then? Or like what exactly is proof in this case? Anything I have that is like fully made is going to be fine but like this one?
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  #160  
Old 08-30-2017, 11:25 AM
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Are you kidding me with all this info they want + 4 pictures??? **** CA!
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