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  #1  
Old 06-04-2017, 8:36 AM
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scottyb scottyb is offline
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Default LEO selling of Off-Roster PPT?

While performing a PPT, actually a trade of an off roster handgun for another off roster handgun, we were told that they could no longer transfer a handgun purchased via LEO exemption to a non-LEO buyer. Not an issue for us since neither of the parties involved were LEOs. Interestingly, it was noted that this restriction only applied to firearms purchased by the LEO via roster exemption. If that LEO brought the firearm into California during a move or purchased it via PPT, it was fine. Not sure how the FFL doing the transfer could verify that.

I have done some searching, and I am aware of some LEOs getting busted for basically using their status to buy and subsequently sell those off roster guns at significant profit. I can see CA DOJ and the ATF cracking down on what amounts to non-FFL dealing (kind of) or straw purchases of off roster handguns by LEOs to sell. But, I have not seen any laws or regulations change in this regard, so legally I don't think there is any new restriction on an occasional and infrequent sale from LEO to non-LEO via PPT of an off roster handgun.

I think more likely that it is a store policy, though the clerk performing our PPT was not very forthcoming in whether or not he was simply directed by the owner as to not be a party to any potential issues that could come from an LEO engaging in a large amount of buying and selling for profit.



Have any of you heard of stores enacting a similar policy?

EDIT: This took place at Down Range in Chico. Just in case anybody was planning on doing a LEO to non-LEO PPT there.

Last edited by scottyb; 06-04-2017 at 8:39 AM.. Reason: Add dealer name for info
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  #2  
Old 06-04-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
I asked this question (got no response) before and will ask it again.

Does it make ANY difference if an LEO bought the OFF ROSTER handgun WITHOUT using their exemption ?

If LEO just walks into a gun shop and picks up a cool OFF ROSTER pistol (THAT ANYONE COULD BUY) that was on consignment and decides to trade it off or sell it to a non LEO later. Is it different than if LEO bought an OFF ROSTER handgun USING their exemption?

California Code, Penal Code - PEN § 32000



(a) A person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends an unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
(1) The manufacture in this state, or importation into this state, of a prototype handgun when the manufacture or importation is for the sole purpose of allowing an independent laboratory certified by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 32010 to conduct an independent test to determine whether that handgun is prohibited by Sections 31900 to 32110, inclusive, and, if not, allowing the department to add the firearm to the roster of handguns that may be sold in this state pursuant to Section 32015.
(2) The importation or lending of a handgun by employees or authorized agents of entities determining whether the weapon is prohibited by this section.
(3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(4) The sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to, or purchased by, the Department of Justice, a police department, a sheriff's official, a marshal's office, the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, the Department of the California Highway Patrol, any district attorney's office, any federal law enforcement agency, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties.  This section does not prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies of a handgun.
(5) The sale, purchase, or delivery of a handgun, if the sale, purchase, or delivery of the handgun is made pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 10334 of the Public Contract Code.
(6) Subject to the limitations set forth in subdivision (c), the sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to, or purchased by, any of the following entities or sworn members of these entities who have satisfactorily completed the firearms portion of a training course prescribed by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training pursuant to Section 832:
(A) The Department of Parks and Recreation.
(B) The Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control.
(C) The Division of Investigation of the Department of Consumer Affairs.
(D) The Department of Motor Vehicles.
(E) The Fraud Division of the Department of Insurance.
(F) The State Department of State Hospitals.
(G) The Department of Fish and Wildlife.
(H) The State Department of Developmental Services.
(I) The Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.
(J) A county probation department.
(K) The Los Angeles World Airports, as defined in Section 830.15.
(L) A K-12 public school district for use by a school police officer, as described in Section 830.32.
(M) A municipal water district for use by a park ranger, as described in Section 830.34.
(N) A county for use by a welfare fraud investigator or inspector, as described in Section 830.35.
(O) A county for use by the coroner or the deputy coroner, as described in Section 830.35.
(P) The Supreme Court and the courts of appeal for use by marshals of the Supreme Court and bailiffs of the courts of appeal, and coordinators of security for the judicial branch, as described in Section 830.36.
(Q) A fire department or fire protection agency of a county, city, city and county, district, or the state for use by either of the following:
(i) A member of an arson-investigating unit, regularly paid and employed in that capacity pursuant to Section 830.37.
(ii) A member other than a member of an arson-investigating unit, regularly paid and employed in that capacity pursuant to Section 830.37.
(R) The University of California Police Department, or the California State University Police Departments, as described in Section 830.2.
(S) A California Community College police department, as described in Section 830.32.

(c)(1) Notwithstanding Section 26825, a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, shall not process the sale or transfer of an unsafe handgun between a person who has obtained an unsafe handgun pursuant to an exemption specified in paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) and a person who is not exempt from the requirements of this section.


so, if you used 32000(b)(6), to acquire the off-roster handgun, it is illegal for a CA-dealer to process the PPT. if you didn't use that exemption, (whether you acquired it in a PPT or are a member of a 32000(b)(4) agency) then I don't see how 32000(c)(1) would apply.
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Last edited by ke6guj; 06-04-2017 at 11:07 AM..
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:10 AM
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^^^ What Jack said ^^^

For off-Roster handguns, if a LEO inherited one, or received one by intrafamilial transfer, or bought one PPT, or moved to CA with it, still free to sell it if s/he wants to do that.

And remember, the restriction applies only to the newly-designated LEO, and only to off-Roster handguns purchased in CA from 2017 forward using the LE exemption.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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Last edited by Librarian; 06-04-2017 at 11:13 AM..
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  #4  
Old 06-04-2017, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
California Code, Penal Code - PEN § 32000



(c)(1) Notwithstanding Section 26825, a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, shall not process the sale or transfer of an unsafe handgun between a person who has obtained an unsafe handgun pursuant to an exemption specified in paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) and a person who is not exempt from the requirements of this section.


so, if you used 32000(b)(6), to acquire the off-roster handgun, it is illegal for a CA-dealer to process the PPT. if you didn't use that exemption, (whether you acquired it in a PPT or are a member of a 32000(b)(4) agency) then I don't see how 32000(c)(1) would apply.
This was kind of a question that I was having in posting this. How, if this is the case, would the FFL know that? Just simply asking if you used the exemption to buy the weapon doesn't seem to place the FFL in any danger of violating if the LEO just says no.

I moved here from NY (I thought they were bad) a couple of years ago and I am just really diving into the transfer legalities of firearms. I have been content with my firearms that I moved here with, until recently, when the bug bit me to start expanding my collection again. This PPT was the first since I got here and I thought I have heard of LEOs selling off guns that were off the roster and that they didn't want to keep. That is why it struck me as weird. I guess I have a lot more to learn about the maze of CA gun laws in with respect to PPTs.

Last edited by scottyb; 06-04-2017 at 11:19 AM..
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:22 AM
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Stepped-up enforcement due to a certain calguns LEO who was just tarred and feathered in the media.
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb View Post
This was kind of a question that I was having in posting this. How, if this is the case, would the FFL know that? Just simply asking if you used the exemption to buy the weapon doesn't seem to place the FFL in any danger of violating if the LEO just says no.
exactly. and is the FFL required to ask?

are they subject to prosecution if they have no-idea if the handgun being PPT'ed is a 32000(b)(6)-acquired firearm? what happens if they do ask, and the seller lies? are they still liable?
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
Understood.

For example:

LEO walks into a a gun store. They buy a nice Smith and Wesson 945 or Model 610 from the consignment cabinet. ANYONE COULD HAVE BOUGHT IT. NO LEO EXEMPTION WAS USED.

If they were to trade it or sell it later to a NON LEO, would they be under the same scrutiny as if a handgun bought USING their exemption?
unknown how CADOJ might try to track LEO-purchases and their later sales.

legally, that LEO should be able to buy PPT/consignment just like any other non--exempt person and be able to sell that in a later PPT/consignment sale. just like a 32000(b)(4) LEO today can go in and buy an off-roster handgun and then later decide to sell that to a non-LEO in a PPT/consignment, without violating 32000(c)(1).

is CADOJ noting in AFS somehow that "Glock 40Gen4 serial number XXX123" was acquired via 32000(b)(6) and then looking at that when it is later PPT'ed, who knows?
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:33 AM
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https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1259927

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1280946

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1274586

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1287943
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2017, 5:55 PM
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Cleaned up a bit and made a sticky.
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- Thomas Sowell
I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


Gregg Easterbrook’s “Law of Doomsaying”: Predict catastrophe no later than ten years hence but no sooner than five years away — soon enough to terrify people but distant enough that they will not remember that you were wrong.


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Old 11-05-2018, 1:24 PM
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Sorry, may just be a little thick headed.

What you're saying is that a LEO that purchased on Off-Roster pistol using their exemption can not sell that same pistol to a Non-LEO through PPT after any amount of time?
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Old 11-05-2018, 1:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tychin02 View Post
Sorry, may just be a little thick headed.

What you're saying is that a LEO that purchased on Off-Roster pistol using their exemption can not sell that same pistol to a Non-LEO through PPT after any amount of time?
No that is not accurate. Only those LEO's that were added to the list and listed in the law quoted in post #2 can not sell off roster firearms they purchased using their exempt status.
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Old 11-05-2018, 1:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
No that is not accurate. Only those LEO's that were added to the list and listed in the law quoted in post #2 can not sell off roster firearms they purchased using their exempt status.
"to the list and listed in the law quoted..."

Are there 2 lists? Or just the one mentioned above?

So for example a Sheriff or city Police officer would still be eligible, however not a DMV officer. Correct?
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Old 11-05-2018, 1:48 PM
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Everyone listed after subsection B 5 were added to be able to purchase off roster in 2016 I believe. Their ability to sell off roster obtained with their exempt status was removed. It does not effect anyone who was able to purchase off roster prior to the new exemptions being added in. So nothing changed city police county sheriff's deputies, CHP and a few other's can still sell off roster. However some agencies have adopted policy's prohibiting those sales, since a few have used that to flip a profit.
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