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#41
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YESSS!!
AND THANKS TO YOU ^
congrats and thanks to all involved. if only we had a case like this in the bag regarding BBs/maglocks... not that i wish the hardship on anyone to be the defendant in such a case, but once we win, it is good for all.... Last edited by goober; 12-19-2008 at 10:09 AM.. Reason: added tip o' the hat to the defendant! |
#42
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congrats to all involved with this case!! i don't visit this portion of the forums all too much (whoever thought of the e-mail list thing is a genius as i would have never known about this w/o it)
CONGRATS!!
__________________
CRPA Lifetime Member |
#43
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If it involves correctly identifying any type of hole, I predict limited success.
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#44
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Congrats everyone, but especially John Contos and Don Kilmer!
__________________
- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™ CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. |
#45
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Congrats to the CGF! -
__________________
"[When lead starts flying] You won't rise to the occasion – you'll default to your level of training." -Barrett Tillman "And what country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." -Thomas Jefferson "If someone is so fearful that they are going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, it makes me very nervous that these people have weapons at all." - U.S. Rep Henry Waxman (D-CA) |
#46
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Am I the only one that got all warm and tingly |
#49
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If the gun has a non-detachable magazine (such as by installing a Bullet Button), then it may have any of the "features" such as a pistol grip or flash hider, and the magazine can even be swapped (with a tool), but it must never have a magazine that holds more than ten rounds installed. Detachable magazine of any size + restricted features = illegal assault weapon.The U-15 stock is one of the ways to avoid having restricted features, so that a regular magazine catch and magazines of any capacity may be used. The U-15 stock eliminates the normal pistol grip, which is one of the restricted features. While it would be OK to build a gun with both a U-15 stock and a Bullet Button (BB) as long as the magazine holds no more than ten rounds, this would be a silly configuration unless you just happen to like the look or feel of the U-15 stock better. With the BB and a 10 round or smaller magazine, you may have as many pistol grips and flash hiders on the rifle as you want. If you have a rifle with a Bullet Button, it's up to you whether you reload by swapping one 10-round magazine for another one, or remove the 10-round magazine to reload it, or leave the magazine in place and hinge open the upper half of the rifle to load it in place. Just make sure that you never put in a magazine holding more than 10 rounds, and also make sure that nobody else does that to your rifle a the range. Personally, I like to leave the magazine in place and install a plastic chamber safety flag when I'm away from the rifle (say, while changing targets), but the Range Officer may or may not like seeing an installed magazine during a range break. The easiest way to make sense of this legal mess is to study the excellent CA AW ID Flowchart. There's a link to it hiding near the upper right corner of every Calguns forum page (below the ads and the first big blue bar) in case you lose it and want a new copy. |
#50
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Good work, CalGuns Foundation, and keep up the good fight! |
#51
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There, I fixed that for you. Since the U-15 stock clearly is OK according to both the text of the law and DOJ's own documents, and it clearly does not have a "thumbhole", Iggy performed a false arrest and/or gave false testimony. That's what you get when you have a law enforcement officer who is a JBT who doesn't know his head from a hole in the... uh... stock? desk?
Last edited by 383green; 12-19-2008 at 2:26 PM.. Reason: Now 10% better! |
#52
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My hat is off to Gene and Don and many others who I'm sure were involved in this. Does this establish any kind of precedent that the U-15 stock is legal, or did this case not make it far enough to set that in stone?
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Last edited by sierratangofoxtrotunion; 12-19-2008 at 3:29 PM.. Reason: extra partying |
#53
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Agent Chinn knowingly committed a false arrest, and did so under color of authority. Immediate termination and prosecution is in order. Nothing less is acceptable. For that effort I would gladly contribute.
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#54
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All,
Let me be clear. The Foundation's work is not done until John has his property in his hands. We have some experience getting things returned. -Gene
__________________
Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
Last edited by hoffmang; 12-19-2008 at 3:40 PM.. |
#55
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Gentlemen: Well done.
A somewhat early Christmas present for Mr. Contos, and the community at large. I hate to think what it's like in a parallel universe, where there is no CalGuns Foundation. Ugly stuff. I have a donation for your Christmas stockings.
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"An unarmed man can only flee from evil. And evil is not overcome by fleeing from it" - Col. Jeff Cooper "Shot placement trumps all." |
#56
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Quote:
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K PS Paypal inbound. |
#57
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__________________
- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™ CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. |
#58
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Don - see the title of my upcoming book
I have to admit though, sometimes it does feel like both Alison and Iggy are working for us.
__________________
- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™ CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. |
#59
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Devil's Advocate Re: (former) S.A. Iggy Chinn
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Mr. Chinn (and his {then} boss Randy Rossi) gave truthful and very helpful testimony in the Nordyke case regarding that gun show's compliance with federal and state law. I am also personally aware of Mr. Chinn being more than fair in several gun cases in which he and I worked on opposite sides in the past 10-12 years. I am also NOT personally aware of any excessive use of force or police brutality on his part; which sometimes comes with the territory in firearm L.E. work. (Think Ruby Ridge and Waco.) Mr. Chinn and I have had our disagreements, and I have been critical of his work in the past, but I will require pretty convincing evidence of malice on his part before I make the leap that he is to be personally condemned or suffer any personal liability. Before you condemn anybody in the firearm L.E. community, consider the possibility that they are charged with enforcing downright stupid, ambiguous, non-objective laws. The ASW mess in California is properly blamed on Sacramento. The cowards we elected who passed (and/or vote for) these laws wouldn't know a machine gun from a BB gun. They just pass unenforceable irrational laws, then dump the whole mess on the other two branches of government (courts and police), then pat themselves on the back for making the world safe for flowers and puppy dogs. If they had any guts, they would get on with trying to outlaw/confiscate ALL guns, instead of this incremental approach. I just want the cowards to volunteer to lead the troops going door to door in their own political districts for the purpose of collecting the guns. Hopefully they will wear big name tags that also show how they voted. [I'm not holding my breath.] Until then we need to keep the political/philosophical discussion about the purpose of the right of self-defense - and the absolute necessity of free citizens being armed - alive in this (and many other) forum(s). Singling out one police officer who is taking an aggressive position on enforcement is a distraction. It lets the real culprits escape scrutiny by whining: "The laws we passed are just, good and moral; we just need to reign in over-zealous police officers." Every ten years, Congress does the same thing to rank & file ATF agents. When you give a gung-ho person an impossible task, they usually try to accomplish it. We love that about our military, firemen and cops. Do we really want these folks to be passive when it comes to taking a hill, rescuing a child or catching a (really) bad guy? . . . I didn't think so. In some ways Iggy's is (was) doing us a favor. If the CA ASW law is "stupid, ambiguous, and non-objective"; then the quickest way to demonstrate that fact to a judge (or voters) is to advertise the absurd and irrational applications of that law. Nuf said.
__________________
Donald Kilmer (Lex Arma) - Reason or Force. If civic virtu does not reside in the people - no constitution, no bill of rights, no legislative body and no court will be able to preserve our liberties. Unconsciously borrowed from: "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it." — Judge Learned Hand NONE of my posts on this website are legal advice. I get the top bunk. |
#60
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What book? Link please.
__________________
Donald Kilmer (Lex Arma) - Reason or Force. If civic virtu does not reside in the people - no constitution, no bill of rights, no legislative body and no court will be able to preserve our liberties. Unconsciously borrowed from: "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it." — Judge Learned Hand NONE of my posts on this website are legal advice. I get the top bunk. |
#61
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The "I was just following orders" defense didn't work at Nuremberg, and IMHO is equally invalid anywhere else. This mess will stop when "rank and file" LEOs of all stripes stand up and say something to the effect of "I must respectfully decline to obey what I believe to be an illegal order." Quote:
If the "child" is in no real danger, I DO want them to be passive and refuse an unlawful order. The kid- (or more accurately parenting-) cops are the only ones CLOSE to the various drug- and gun-cops in terms of the miscarriages of justice they regularly inflict on good and decent people. Catching the (really) bad guys is what they're charged (and paid) to do, and every minute they spend harassing a good person in the process of enforcing a stupid, improper law is nothing more or less than dereliction of duty. Further, I consider them morally culpable when these choices leave a REAL criminal on the street harm the law-abiding. We have separation of powers in this nation for a reason. It really doesn't matter how out of line the legislature gets, if the executive refuses to enforce it then no harm can possibly be done. This is basic 9th-grade civics. Further, let's face it: It's easy to go in all ninja'd up when you know the man on the other side of the door you're kicking in isn't going to shoot you. Most of them would RATHER go after "low hanging fruit" which leaves the REAL criminals free to go about their heinous business. I am not anti-LEO, the fact is that a majority of my closest friends are LEOs of one sort or another, and every one of them have suffered some career damage because they put their conscience ahead of their wallet. That they're not rendered unnoticeable because they're surrounded by hundreds or thousands of their peers is the biggest problem we have. Yes - blame the legislators for passing stupid laws, but don't excuse the executors for blindly (or in truth, RABIDLY) enforcing them. Don't pee on my head and tell me it's raining, nor ask me to accept jack-boot behavior from those sworn to "protect and serve." Respectfully, DD |
#62
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Quote:
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NTM |
#63
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It'll be a little while longer yet before it's published
__________________
- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™ CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. Last edited by artherd; 12-20-2008 at 5:21 PM.. |
#64
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Don,
After reading about some of Iggys testimony, I can't agree. His testimony about the alleged assault weapons at another show was IMHO stupid and silly. His allegation that some trigger group parts comprise a firearm is also way out there. I don't remember if the documentation supporting this is host by Bill W or Gene. For a guy that is charged with enforcing firearm laws, he doesn't seem to have known what he's been doing. Again, just MHO. all the best, Mike |
#65
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I respectfully disagree
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Refusing to obey an unlawful order is risky for soldiers and cops. They tend to get shot or lose their pensions if they guess wrong. As for these LEOs who are supposed to judge for themselves which orders they will obey and which ones they will ignore; does that include members of the executive branch who are tasked with enforcing civil rights laws? So if a U.S. Marshall is supposed to insure access to voting booths in the South circa. 1963, but he respectfully declines to obey what he believes is an illegal order, that would be a proper example of separation of powers?
__________________
Donald Kilmer (Lex Arma) - Reason or Force. If civic virtu does not reside in the people - no constitution, no bill of rights, no legislative body and no court will be able to preserve our liberties. Unconsciously borrowed from: "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it." — Judge Learned Hand NONE of my posts on this website are legal advice. I get the top bunk. Last edited by Lex Arma; 12-20-2008 at 7:09 PM.. Reason: grammar |
#66
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We agree.
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You said yourself (IMHO) that you had a difference of "opinion" with Mr. Chinn. Criticize his opinion. Attack his conclusions. You can even suggest that he is biased in favor of the status quo. The point I was making was that before Mr. Chinn could be personally liable, clear and convincing evidence of a kind of malice is legally (morally?) necessary. Is it reasonable to expect every LEO to resign from their jobs, and forfeit their pensions and jobs when the legislature passes dumb laws?
__________________
Donald Kilmer (Lex Arma) - Reason or Force. If civic virtu does not reside in the people - no constitution, no bill of rights, no legislative body and no court will be able to preserve our liberties. Unconsciously borrowed from: "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it." — Judge Learned Hand NONE of my posts on this website are legal advice. I get the top bunk. |
#67
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anywhere in california
so this means anywhere in california, someone with a OLL and u15 stock can not be arrested or charged with having an assault weapon?
or does someone still run the risk of being arrested by having this set up? saying it complies with all other penal code requirements |
#68
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I need to check into it, but I'm hoping to post a copy of the dismissal and other documents for anyone who gets an uneducated LEO or DA. -Gene
__________________
Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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#69
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#70
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I agree that the blame for the passing of the AW laws rest with Sacramento, BUT, I seem to remember high ranking members of the Law Enforcement community testified in favor of those laws. Now I realize that the logical, thinking cops did not support the AW laws but ,those who matter, did. I personally spoke to my Assemblyman at the county fair to tell him my thoughts on the pending AW legislation at that time. He said that, to paraphrase, "Law Enforcement told him these types of weapons are favored by 'The Gangs'." So he was going to vote in favor of restricting them because "Law Enforcement" wanted them off the streets. We agreed to disagree. I hope this doesn't come off as anti-LEO but most of the rulers in Sacramento, like you said, don't know the difference between a BB gun and a M2 50 cal. So they look for so called gun experts, Law Enforcement, for advice. And Law Enforcement, those who matter, told them to ban them. Now we are stuck with a mess. |
#71
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He's the former Special Agent at BoF. I'm more interested in the opinion makers that might still be there... -Gene
__________________
Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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#72
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The "drug wars" have turned out to be in essence class warfare, since the big-boys rarely get caught in such swat team drug sweeps. Until that is recognized as such, police home invasions, done with absolute impunity, will go on unabated, with relatively innocent people being the victims (or scapegoats) of an overzealous -- and uninformed -- ATF, FBI, and police bureaucracy. Certainly, illegal drug use should be controlled in some way, but the home invasion tactics used for this and for other ATF/FBI/police activities has caused irreparable harm to people who were trying to obey the law, or who happened to be near-by when a law was being broken. Property and gun seizures and the blatant overuse of police authority in "drug war" style tactics go hand in hand. The two together need to be handled as one distinct kind of misuse of local and federal police powers. |
#73
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Any one have a picture of an U-15 STOCK.
This is a great day. What legal planns are there for counter suits and the denile of civil rights and legal lawfull property.
__________________
PLEASE WEAR EYE PROTECT & PROTECTIVE GEAR IN SHOP!!!!!! You can order another part from from manufacturer, but you can't order another finger or eye from your mother & father. ***This DOES NOT constitute GOOD or SANE legal - professional gunsmithing - psychiatric MD - tax - accounting -gardening advice. Please contactact qualified a professional in their repective specialties.*** AWHHH go ahead and mix match specialities that could be funny!!!!! |
#74
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__________________
Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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#75
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Not to be a wet blanket, but isn't this a soft victory in that the DA dropped charges. It isn't like there is a ruling here. Just the absence of one. Couldn't the same attempt to prosecute be made at another time in another jurisdiction or even the same jurisdiction if the DA felt they did in fact have enough evidence?
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#76
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This went far enough - and was bad enough for the DA - pretrial, that it will be an effective deterrent in this county and others.
But no it's not as good as binding case law (we'd have to loose at trial, then win on appeal.)
__________________
- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™ CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. |
#77
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It's not binding precedent but what do you think will happen to the next DA presented a U-15 stock and a copy of the dismissal? -Gene
__________________
Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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#78
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A follow on action for some sort of unlawful prosecution would seem reasonable to me if that were possible. Otherwise the door is left open for continued harassment of OLL owners (and potentially any gun owner). But I am not a lawyer and really don't know much about how precedent is created. Thanks for the analysis Gene. |
#79
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As we've hinted, this case is probably not over. -Gene
__________________
Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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#80
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Awesome if that is the case! Again, thanks as always for helping educate us!
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