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  #1  
Old 12-02-2018, 6:25 PM
ansan12001 ansan12001 is offline
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Default S&W SD40VE barrel wear and cast bullets, need help from the pro's...

I have a S&W SD40E with significant barrel wear that causes shots to go all very the place, even from 5 yards. This is with factory ammo. Before I go ahead and replace the barrel (we can assume it is worn, I asked a gunsmith), I thought I would ask for help with the reloaders.

I haven't reloaded in a few years but I have all the equipment and supplies. My thought was to cast something a little bigger then the factory 40sw spec to take up a little more room in the barrel using mold .401/75 from LEE. I would NOT resize the bullet after casting. The lead I have is on the harder side but I have access to really soft lead if needed. Generally, I usally powder coat as well. I am thinking the thickness of the powder coating will help with bullet sealing for this application. Would this work? What should I change?

Is it just easier to replace the barrel? I am willing to spend some time casting bullets if it means I can still use the worn barrel since a new barrel isnt on a priority list and if I can cast bullets to work, then thats would I would like to do.



Thank you
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  #2  
Old 12-02-2018, 6:39 PM
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I can't remember if my old SD40VE had the "electro" process rifling as some S&W's have where the rifling doesn't have a predominant edge, but is smoother and less pronounced.

IIRC, it was cut rifling.

I would do what your gut is telling you and find a larger size bullet or mold cast. That alone may be the issue. I can't imagine the barrel becoming worn like that with factory ammo. How many rounds are through the gun?
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  #3  
Old 12-02-2018, 7:55 PM
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Op,
How many rounds through the sw? I had one in 40. Shot pretty good. Ran about 3000 rounds before I sold it.
Hard to believe one could wear out a barrel?
401 isnt that big btw. Maybe 402?

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  #4  
Old 12-02-2018, 8:52 PM
ansan12001 ansan12001 is offline
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^The statement on electro rifling: that is understood. I do notice the rifling is not pronounced as other barrels. Thank you, perhaps the gunsmith was mistaken. BTW, I didnt pay for the service, it was just counter talk at a shop.

Basically, my problem is that the gun is inaccurate as heck, and no, its not just bad form. I wouldn't be able to hit a dinner plate target at 5 yards. The spread is not predicable but usually below 0 degrees horizontal, almost like the bullet is catching no particular rifling grove and being directed downrange at weird angles.


@Dononrai: Unknown shots but the gun seems to be in good condition. Mechanical are all tight, solid trigger pull and striker action. Nothing abnormal inside. Barrel itself, to me seems normal. Ramp and muzzle look used but no major material wear. Do you have a particular Lee Mold or other type of mold you think may work? I dont know if Lee even makes a 402....

Thank you guys
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  #5  
Old 12-02-2018, 8:58 PM
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Is the barrel clean?
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  #6  
Old 12-02-2018, 9:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ansan12001 View Post
^The statement on electro rifling: that is understood. I do notice the rifling is not pronounced as other barrels. Thank you, perhaps the gunsmith was mistaken. BTW, I didnt pay for the service, it was just counter talk at a shop.

Basically, my problem is that the gun is inaccurate as heck, and no, its not just bad form. I wouldn't be able to hit a dinner plate target at 5 yards. The spread is not predicable but usually below 0 degrees horizontal, almost like the bullet is catching no particular rifling grove and being directed downrange at weird angles.


@Dononrai: Unknown shots but the gun seems to be in good condition. Mechanical are all tight, solid trigger pull and striker action. Nothing abnormal inside. Barrel itself, to me seems normal. Ramp and muzzle look used but no major material wear. Do you have a particular Lee Mold or other type of mold you think may work? I dont know if Lee even makes a 402....

Thank you guys
As for 401 or 402 sized boolits. Go to cast boolits forum. There is a seller who sells them pretty cheap. Maybe buy a few in each size to test?
I got my 402 mould, but it was NOT a lee. Cost was alot more. Got a nice brass NOE off of Cb forum.
I would send you some to try but all I have is 401 from a lee mould.
Pm me and I can send some for you to test. Have not used the 402 yet. Dont like to cast when rain is in the forecast

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  #7  
Old 12-03-2018, 2:14 PM
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Any considerstion to slugging that barrel first to see if a worn bore is really the issue?

IIWM I'd pull a factory projectile from the ammo I was using, mark and mic the diameter in two or three places radially, force it through the barrel, and repeat measurements.

That would tell you if your barrel is worn bad enough to cause the spray pattern op described.
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  #8  
Old 12-03-2018, 5:20 PM
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or a real badly fit or some misalignment somewhere.
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Old 12-04-2018, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
Any considerstion to slugging that barrel first to see if a worn bore is really the issue?

IIWM I'd pull a factory projectile from the ammo I was using, mark and mic the diameter in two or three places radially, force it through the barrel, and repeat measurements.

That would tell you if your barrel is worn bad enough to cause the spray pattern op described.
+++1

SLUG YOUR BARREL.

You'll never know if the bullet is not engaging the rifling unless you do this or shoot bullets into a pool and recover them.

Just find a pure lead sinker that is of the right size or melt the lead sinker into a fired 40 S&W case and use a kinetic bullet puller to whack it out. It will be slightly tapered so it should fit in the barrel from the muzzle. Lube the bullet/barrel well and drive the slug until it's flush with the muzzle, then drive it back out and measure the land and groove diameter. The fattest part of the bullet (a little touch to measure with calipers on 5 groove rifling, but doable) should be 0.400". The narrowest part of the indentations had better be considerably less or else the lands are not grabbing the bullet.

Also carefully inspect the crown of the barrel. I hope you haven't been ramming a cleaning rod down the muzzle. A damaged crown can turn a rifle in to a shotgun or a modern pistol into not much more than a smootbore in terms of accuracy.
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  #10  
Old 12-04-2018, 10:06 AM
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I took the advice and did a standard cleaning but there is some material in the barrel that isn't coming off with Cleaning Solution. I don't want to jack up the rifling, any advice on a better method to get the rest of the material out of the barrel? Here are some pics:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20181204_105552.jpg (79.6 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20181204_105912.jpg (95.2 KB, 103 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20181204_105937.jpg (88.0 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20181204_105957.jpg (94.8 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20181204_110020.jpg (91.9 KB, 52 views)

Last edited by ansan12001; 12-04-2018 at 10:08 AM.. Reason: added pictures
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  #11  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ansan12001 View Post
Basically, my problem is that the gun is inaccurate as heck, and no, its not just bad form.
I wouldn't be able to hit a dinner plate target at 5 yards.
The spread is not predicable but usually below 0 degrees horizontal, almost like the bullet is catching no particular rifling grove and being directed downrange at weird angles.
This is exactly the behavior we expect of a bad crown or a mis-sized bore, but not from a worn bore.
I doubt your barrel is worn out at all.
It could just be damaged from poor cleaning practices or being dropped on the muzzle or really fouled.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 12-04-2018 at 11:48 AM..
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  #12  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ansan12001 View Post
I took the advice and did a standard cleaning but there is some material in the barrel that isn't coming off with Cleaning Solution. I don't want to jack up the rifling, any advice on a better method to get the rest of the material out of the barrel? Here are some pics:

That barrel is not worn out at all.
The rifling is still sharp at the throat.

There sure looks like some lead fouling down the barrel though.
Get a lewis lead remover and clean out the barrel.
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  #13  
Old 12-04-2018, 8:35 PM
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Thank you Sir.
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Old 12-04-2018, 8:40 PM
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Shoot a box of FMJ through it.
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Old 12-05-2018, 3:22 AM
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I wish the barrels on some of my old Single Action Army's looked that "bad".

The gunsmith that told you that barrel is worn out needs to find another line of work.

Is it machined out of tolerance? The bore too large? Maybe. Slugging the bore will tell you.

Then size your cast bullets .002" over the groove diameter.

The leading that you see is not bad. Most of my 1911's have that. They are very accurate. I quit worrying about little things like that 20 years ago.


Steve in N CA
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  #16  
Old 12-05-2018, 4:22 AM
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Get the lead out.

Plated, and FMJs as suggested would be my first thing I'd try...

Last edited by the86d; 12-05-2018 at 4:27 AM..
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Old 12-05-2018, 12:38 PM
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Agree with the last few posts. In my opinion, if the barrel won't shoot decent groups with factory ammo then replace it. On a defensive, non-target gun, I'm not interested in finding a lead round that will shoot great. This is not part of its purpose. Just my 2 cents. On a defensive handgun, I will tolerate 4 to 6 inch groups at 25 yards with any pistol and any load - standing and unsupported. I'm not working up a load for plinking shooting. Now target guns are a much different story.
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Old 12-05-2018, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
This is exactly the behavior we expect of a bad crown or a mis-sized bore, but not from a worn bore.
I doubt your barrel is worn out at all.
It could just be damaged from poor cleaning practices or being dropped on the muzzle or really fouled.
Beat me to it. I was thinking bad/damaged crown too.
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  #19  
Old 12-05-2018, 7:32 PM
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Update:
I cleaned the hell out of the barrel. Tried something new and different, since I was already planning on a new barrel (70.00).
I have used Seafoam on many applications that involve metal so I went ahead and soaked the barrel in some of that. After 15 mins, I used a copper wire gun brush and was able to get the barrel very nice and clean. Afterwards, I used dish soap to get the seafoam off and then light coat of gun oil.
Took to the SDPD range (25yards, 10 bucks all day lane) since I had the day off. I was surprised at how well the gun shot, admittedly I dont have a good aim but did hit the target, perhaps 2 foot spread. I consider this a huge success and I appreciate all the helpful advice, saved me from a making a needless purchase.

Last edited by ansan12001; 12-05-2018 at 7:34 PM..
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Old 12-06-2018, 2:40 AM
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Your the man!

Keep up the good work, you'll get better every day.


Steve in N CA
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  #21  
Old 12-06-2018, 3:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ansan12001 View Post
Update:
I cleaned the hell out of the barrel. Tried something new and different, since I was already planning on a new barrel (70.00).
I have used Seafoam on many applications that involve metal so I went ahead and soaked the barrel in some of that. After 15 mins, I used a copper wire gun brush and was able to get the barrel very nice and clean. Afterwards, I used dish soap to get the seafoam off and then light coat of gun oil.
Took to the SDPD range (25yards, 10 bucks all day lane) since I had the day off. I was surprised at how well the gun shot, admittedly I dont have a good aim but did hit the target, perhaps 2 foot spread. I consider this a huge success and I appreciate all the helpful advice, saved me from a making a needless purchase.
Are you going to slow down to <1000 FPS, use harder pills, or switch to plated?
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:47 PM
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Maybe it's the photography but I'm a little concerned about the picture that shows the muzzle end of the barrel. Most guns I have show distinct groove edges at the crown. The picture is fuzzy and maybe the blurriness smooths over the rifling edges.

Are there distinct edges of the rifling on the muzzle end of the barrel?

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  #23  
Old 12-06-2018, 5:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the86d View Post
Are you going to slow down to <1000 FPS, use harder pills, or switch to plated?
Well, I got the gun from my dad, a hand me down. I am going to get back into reloading and I use powder coated bullits because that prevents leading (thats been my personal experience). Not sure about velocity.

As far as crown, I think the picture is blurry.

It will be interesting how Seafoam works in other firearm applications.
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