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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #41  
Old 06-07-2017, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by porcupineballs View Post
I have both a BCM and a PSA AR rifles. They are identical in quality, and only different in price.
Spoken like a true expert.
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  #42  
Old 06-07-2017, 2:21 PM
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Originally Posted by porcupineballs View Post
I have both a BCM and a PSA AR rifles. They are identical in quality, and only different in price.
Are you just retarded or just ****ing stupid
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  #43  
Old 06-07-2017, 2:23 PM
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I like DSA BCGs. They go on sale on the time.

https://www.dsarms.com/p-15793-dsa-a...3-300-blk.aspx
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  #44  
Old 06-07-2017, 5:09 PM
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There's a guy selling a new Colt bcg $127 on Cal guns marketplace grab it. I've scored on an Lmt semi bcg for a similar price on cg marketplace also
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...g#post20202729
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  #45  
Old 06-07-2017, 5:58 PM
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The last couple regular BCGs I bought were PSA premium, without logo. On sale for $90 or so shipped. No problems.

I also bought an AIM nitride LW BCG for a LW build, it is very nice, runs great so far.

Few shops if any make their own BCGs in-house. Toolcraft is supposed to be a major supplier. If I was looking to buy today, I would consider this or this.

Stick with good brands and you will get good quality. I have bushmaster (pre-remington), RRA, PSA, and now AIM, all with no problems. All but my AIM are phosphated, with C158 bolts. It's what .mil still uses, for a reason.

Last edited by God Bless America; 06-07-2017 at 6:08 PM..
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  #46  
Old 06-07-2017, 6:02 PM
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I just buy toolcraft since they most likely make most of the other high end companies stuff anyways.
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  #47  
Old 06-07-2017, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by deckhandmike View Post
I just buy toolcraft since they most likely make most of the other high end companies stuff anyways.
Yep. They're about $80-90 for nitrided. They make a lot of mil spec BCGs for not only military contracts but other companies as well. Obviously suppliers are closely guarded secrets for AR15 manufacturers. But the truth is, a majority of OEM mil spec parts are from very few sources.

I think an easy tell is the bolt material. Carpenter 158 is mil spec. 9310 is not. Having looked into the two, there's not much difference between them in physical properties. However, if the bolt isn't mil-spec, what else in their manufacturing processes is different?

Not to say a 9310 bolt is garbage, but it could indicate there other deviations from specifications. Heat treat, other materials in the BCG, etc.
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  #48  
Old 06-07-2017, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
The replies here

Just buy a quality BCG; BCM, Colt, etc.

By the way, didn't you just start a thread a few weeks back about a quality BCG and a cheap one? Did you hit your head and forget you're doing the same thing over?

Edit: Here it is http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1314356
That BCG wasn't mine, but it was bottom of the bottom barrel. Think gun show special complete upper.

I only have personal experience with Daniel Defense BCGs . So I thought I'd ask about some other brands out there that average $30 cheaper or more. There are a lot of decent companies out there driving costs down, unfortunately there are a lot of hacks out there too.
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  #49  
Old 06-07-2017, 6:45 PM
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Battlefield Vegas' infamous high round count AR thread...

https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/...our_range.html

"We've used primarily DD and LMT BCG's for the last 2 years with more DD's than LMT's. We used other brands before that trying to save a few bucks and they never lasted. We learned quick that it was cheaper to just go with a BCG that was slightly more expensive"

Great thread, fun read.

-- Michael
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  #50  
Old 06-07-2017, 7:01 PM
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http://palmettostatearmory.com/palme...roup-8779.html

http://palmettostatearmory.com/5-56-...oup-35099.html

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-a...kel-boron.html
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  #51  
Old 06-07-2017, 7:21 PM
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Originally Posted by floogy View Post
Yep. They're about $80-90 for nitrided. They make a lot of mil spec BCGs for not only military contracts but other companies as well. Obviously suppliers are closely guarded secrets for AR15 manufacturers. But the truth is, a majority of OEM mil spec parts are from very few sources.

I think an easy tell is the bolt material. Carpenter 158 is mil spec. 9310 is not. Having looked into the two, there's not much difference between them in physical properties. However, if the bolt isn't mil-spec, what else in their manufacturing processes is different?

Not to say a 9310 bolt is garbage, but it could indicate there other deviations from specifications. Heat treat, other materials in the BCG, etc.
The toolcraft nitride bolt in the link above is a 9310.

Usually don't see a c158 being nitrided. Nitriding is a way to harden the metal. And C158 is already hardened.
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  #52  
Old 06-07-2017, 7:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floogy View Post
Yep. They're about $80-90 for nitrided. They make a lot of mil spec BCGs for not only military contracts but other companies as well. Obviously suppliers are closely guarded secrets for AR15 manufacturers. But the truth is, a majority of OEM mil spec parts are from very few sources.

I think an easy tell is the bolt material. Carpenter 158 is mil spec. 9310 is not. Having looked into the two, there's not much difference between them in physical properties. However, if the bolt isn't mil-spec, what else in their manufacturing processes is different?

Not to say a 9310 bolt is garbage, but it could indicate there other deviations from specifications. Heat treat, other materials in the BCG, etc.
The quality of the heat treating process is a huge part of the process and so is the quality control. Some higher end buyers require higher levels of testing and adherence certain specifications.

I often hear people imply that a BCG is a BCG. If the materials are the same they are equivalent. That is too simplistic. Low end vendors receive and accept parts that would be rejected by higher end vendors.

Is there a higher markup on BCGs from higher end vendors? Of course, because they require higer standards, stand behind their products, offer warranty replacement, and give actual customer service.

I don't know how many times on this and other forums, someone will ask why they are having problems with their AR, but decline to tell anyone what parts they are using. That seldom happens with people who use good quality parts. Yeah, I've read a thread or two started by some guy who bought DD or BCM and have a problem, but those are usually refereed to the vendor, and the problem is solved quickly, because the good vendors will stand behind their stuff.

As for 9310 steel; There is a debate about it. Some vendors feel it is just as good or better than C158. Of course it is cheaper to make a bolt out of 9310, so does the extra profit drive their thinking? C158 is very expensive compared to 9310 because it has to be certified for use in Mil-Spec weapons. There is a lot to the heat treat process. It has to be done correctly, and not all C158 bolts would pass Military scrutiny. My impression from reading as much as I can on it, is that a bolt made from improperly heat treated C158 could be worse than a 9310 bolt. But that is just my impression.

The problem is there are MILLIONS of rounds of testing and real world use of Mil-Spec bolts, but there is NO EQUIVALENT TESTING of properly machined and heat treated 9310 bolts. As long as there isn't a controlled test to compare C158 to a 9310 bolt the question will remain out there.

Personally, I would trust a 9310 bolt sold to me by a quality vendor. But I only own two 9310 bolts out of ten bolts that I have in use.

Those who have bought and used PSA, or what have you, cheap BCG who've not had problems in the number of rounds they've shot are going to be hard to convince. But those that have had issues or found poor quality (like me) know better. We realize that better QC, a more consistent product, customer service, and company that cares about its rep as a seller of quality components will be willing to pay more for it.
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  #53  
Old 06-07-2017, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
You're right! They'll probably have excellent sales on the 4th if the OP can hold out that long.

CouchOperator, are you thinking about this LMT?--> https://www.lmtstore.com/catalog/pro...p/category/31/

I looked hard at these. But for less money you can have a nice BCM BCG and a spare bolt to put in the grip of your rifle. I think it might be a solution looking for a problem. JMHO
Why do you need a spare bolt in your grip?
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  #54  
Old 06-07-2017, 8:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TMB 1 View Post
Why do you need a spare bolt in your grip?
You'd understand if you operate.
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Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Full size. Stubbies are for sissies.
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  #55  
Old 06-07-2017, 8:53 PM
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Why do you need a spare bolt in your grip?
Because I don't like to keep the spare bolt up my ***. You are welcome to keep yours anywhere you want.

I suppose you don't believe in spare parts? I know guys like that, they are always asking to borrow my tools at the range, or borrowing a box of ammo, or can't figure out why their AR won't shoot properly when they leave out the disconnecter spring. They usually don't know how to troubleshoot their rifles or even how they work. But the worst idiots are the ones that come way out to a remote place and don't have any spare parts for their firearms. Never mind protecting their family if the S ever hit the F.

Does that answer your question?
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  #56  
Old 06-07-2017, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
Because I don't like to keep the spare bolt up my ***. You are welcome to keep yours anywhere you want.

I suppose you don't believe in spare parts? I know guys like that, they are always asking to borrow my tools at the range, or borrowing a box of ammo, or can't figure out why their AR won't shoot properly when they leave out the disconnecter spring. They usually don't know how to troubleshoot their rifles or even how they work. But the worst idiots are the ones that come way out to a remote place and don't have any spare parts for their firearms. Never mind protecting their family if the S ever hit the F.

Does that answer your question?
The hurt is strong in this one.

About 95% of people at the range I go to take more than 1 firearm; let's assume 1 goes down...they'll have another 1 to shoot.

If the fecal matter did hit the oscillating air cooling device, I think you have bigger issues to worry about first.
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Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post
Full size. Stubbies are for sissies.
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  #57  
Old 06-07-2017, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
The hurt is strong in this one.

About 95% of people at the range I go to take more than 1 firearm; let's assume 1 goes down...they'll have another 1 to shoot.

If the fecal matter did hit the oscillating air cooling device, I think you have bigger issues to worry about first.
But then, what else are you keeping in your grip that's more useful? I honestly don't even remember what's in mine... spare earplugs I think. I think a spare bolt would better serve me. Will I ever use it? Who knows... but I never use the other junk I have crammed in there, so why not?
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  #58  
Old 06-07-2017, 9:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
But then, what else are you keeping in your grip that's more useful? I honestly don't even remember what's in mine... spare earplugs I think. I think a spare bolt would better serve me. Will I ever use it? Who knows... but I never use the other junk I have crammed in there, so why not?
I have a small bottle of CLP and even then I don't need it. It's there because I just remembered I had it with this talk about "things inside your grip".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post
Full size. Stubbies are for sissies.
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  #59  
Old 06-07-2017, 9:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Christopher761 View Post
The toolcraft nitride bolt in the link above is a 9310.

Usually don't see a c158 being nitrided. Nitriding is a way to harden the metal. And C158 is already hardened.
Monmouth sells nitrided C158 BCGs. Don't know the particulars about nitriding but that's what they show. Another site has their full line with true mil spec phosphate BCGs as well as their 9310 bolts.

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  #60  
Old 06-07-2017, 9:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
Because I don't like to keep the spare bolt up my ***. You are welcome to keep yours anywhere you want.

I suppose you don't believe in spare parts? I know guys like that, they are always asking to borrow my tools at the range, or borrowing a box of ammo, or can't figure out why their AR won't shoot properly when they leave out the disconnecter spring. They usually don't know how to troubleshoot their rifles or even how they work. But the worst idiots are the ones that come way out to a remote place and don't have any spare parts for their firearms. Never mind protecting their family if the S ever hit the F.

Does that answer your question?
Sounds weird needing a spare bolt, cheap parts? Listening to guys talk about how great the AR is makes me wonder where the Commies carried a spare bolt for their inferior SKSs and AKs or the WWII guys carried a spare bolt for their inferior M1 Garands and Carbines?
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  #61  
Old 06-07-2017, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
But then, what else are you keeping in your grip that's more useful? I honestly don't even remember what's in mine... spare earplugs I think. I think a spare bolt would better serve me. Will I ever use it? Who knows... but I never use the other junk I have crammed in there, so why not?
I've got a couple of those CR 123 whatever batteries that everything uses now.
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  #62  
Old 06-07-2017, 9:28 PM
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I've got a couple of those CR 123 whatever batteries that everything uses now.
You misspelled 18650 batteries. Lol

Spares to bring? Spring kit. Firing pin. Even a bolt (for others, for my protection. ) Trigger pin. lube. water. Are reasonable
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  #63  
Old 06-07-2017, 9:29 PM
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I've got a couple of those CR 123 whatever batteries that everything uses now.
My daughter keeps spare batteries in hers. I keep the front sight adjuster tool there so I don't lose it.
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  #64  
Old 06-07-2017, 9:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
The quality of the heat treating process is a huge part of the process and so is the quality control. Some higher end buyers require higher levels of testing and adherence certain specifications.

I often hear people imply that a BCG is a BCG. If the materials are the same they are equivalent. That is too simplistic. Low end vendors receive and accept parts that would be rejected by higher end vendors.

Is there a higher markup on BCGs from higher end vendors? Of course, because they require higer standards, stand behind their products, offer warranty replacement, and give actual customer service.

I don't know how many times on this and other forums, someone will ask why they are having problems with their AR, but decline to tell anyone what parts they are using. That seldom happens with people who use good quality parts. Yeah, I've read a thread or two started by some guy who bought DD or BCM and have a problem, but those are usually refereed to the vendor, and the problem is solved quickly, because the good vendors will stand behind their stuff.

As for 9310 steel; There is a debate about it. Some vendors feel it is just as good or better than C158. Of course it is cheaper to make a bolt out of 9310, so does the extra profit drive their thinking? C158 is very expensive compared to 9310 because it has to be certified for use in Mil-Spec weapons. There is a lot to the heat treat process. It has to be done correctly, and not all C158 bolts would pass Military scrutiny. My impression from reading as much as I can on it, is that a bolt made from improperly heat treated C158 could be worse than a 9310 bolt. But that is just my impression.

The problem is there are MILLIONS of rounds of testing and real world use of Mil-Spec bolts, but there is NO EQUIVALENT TESTING of properly machined and heat treated 9310 bolts. As long as there isn't a controlled test to compare C158 to a 9310 bolt the question will remain out there.

Personally, I would trust a 9310 bolt sold to me by a quality vendor. But I only own two 9310 bolts out of ten bolts that I have in use.

Those who have bought and used PSA, or what have you, cheap BCG who've not had problems in the number of rounds they've shot are going to be hard to convince. But those that have had issues or found poor quality (like me) know better. We realize that better QC, a more consistent product, customer service, and company that cares about its rep as a seller of quality components will be willing to pay more for it.
That's most of what I found on 9310 bolts as well. I think you're correct about 9310 being more forgiving on heat treat. I'm sure 9310 bolts can be just as good as C158, but most cheapo BCGs use 9310.

A lot of what you pay for is branding and support. True of most products.

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  #65  
Old 06-07-2017, 9:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMB 1 View Post
Sounds weird needing a spare bolt, cheap parts? Listening to guys talk about how great the AR is makes me wonder where the Commies carried a spare bolt for their inferior SKSs and AKs or the WWII guys carried a spare bolt for their inferior M1 Garands and Carbines?
If you shoot enough parts will start to break. Bolts will start to experience failures around 20,000 rounds (sheared off lugs, broken extractors, cam pin, gas rings, etc.). Most 3-gun shooters keep spare parts in their bags because things tend to break at the worst possible times.

If you don't shoot your rifles that much you will probably never run into these issues, but if you do things will start to break. Cheap parts will probably break sooner.
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  #66  
Old 06-07-2017, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
The hurt is strong in this one.

About 95% of people at the range I go to take more than 1 firearm; let's assume 1 goes down...they'll have another 1 to shoot.

If the fecal matter did hit the oscillating air cooling device, I think you have bigger issues to worry about first.
That's kind of a dopey comment, I didn't make up the examples.

If SHTF my rifle will not be one of the things I have to worry about precisely because of the spare parts. So, please don't hurt yourself trying to think for me.
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  #67  
Old 06-07-2017, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
But then, what else are you keeping in your grip that's more useful? I honestly don't even remember what's in mine... spare earplugs I think. I think a spare bolt would better serve me. Will I ever use it? Who knows... but I never use the other junk I have crammed in there, so why not?
Bolt and firing pin first, if you can get a squeeze packet of lube/CLP (like a fast food ketchup packet) in there that's good too.
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  #68  
Old 06-07-2017, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TMB 1 View Post
Sounds weird needing a spare bolt, cheap parts? Listening to guys talk about how great the AR is makes me wonder where the Commies carried a spare bolt for their inferior SKSs and AKs or the WWII guys carried a spare bolt for their inferior M1 Garands and Carbines?
Their armorers carried them.

I don't have an armorer.

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  #69  
Old 06-07-2017, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by floogy View Post
Monmouth sells nitrided C158 BCGs. Don't know the particulars about nitriding but that's what they show. Another site has their full line with true mil spec phosphate BCGs as well as their 9310 bolts.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
On coated BCGs; If it is done right they can make cleaning a little easier. But that's it.

There are risks too. The coating process requires heat and if it is improperly done it can cause problems. Also, certain coatings applied incorrectly can cause hydrogen embrittlement. I don't know enough about this to say much more except that it is bad.

Also, some coating will change the BCG dimensionally. Which can cause problems when tolerance stacking makes parts dimensionally incompatible.
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Old 06-07-2017, 10:54 PM
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Sounds weird needing a spare bolt, cheap parts? Listening to guys talk about how great the AR is makes me wonder where the Commies carried a spare bolt for their inferior SKSs and AKs or the WWII guys carried a spare bolt for their inferior M1 Garands and Carbines?
No, not cheap parts, people have been keeping spare bolts with them for a long time. If you just do a google search 'keep a spare AR bolt' you'll get a bunch of hits about why you should keep a spare bolt, or better yet a spare BCG around. It's just easier to keep the bolt handy and its the most likely to fail.

First, the AR's bolt is known to be a potential failure point. Depending on what kind of shooting you do they might need to be replaced as early as 5000 rounds or as late as 15,000. I personally, think 10,000 is a good point to change. But that doesn't mean that a bolt won't fail sooner than that. I've read of quality bolts failing within a few hundred rounds....and sh1t can happen when you dump super hot gases on metal that is under extreme pressure. Even high quality bolts can potentially not live to their expected potential.

My BCGs are all BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske and I have one I bought with Riflegear logo during the great panic.

Piston driven rifles like AKs don't eat bolts like ARs do.

Magpul even makes a bolt and firing pin grip core for MIAD and MOE grips-->http://www.primaryarms.com/magpul-mi...lack-mag057blk
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:08 PM
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You misspelled 18650 batteries. Lol

Spares to bring? Spring kit. Firing pin. Even a bolt (for others, for my protection. ) Trigger pin. lube. water. Are reasonable
Correct.

All my optics use 2032, my lights use CR123. 2032 are easy to carry.
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:11 PM
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That's most of what I found on 9310 bolts as well. I think you're correct about 9310 being more forgiving on heat treat. I'm sure 9310 bolts can be just as good as C158, but most cheapo BCGs use 9310.

A lot of what you pay for is branding and support. True of most products.
Sorry, but I think there are qualitative differences between cheap BCGs and higher end BCGs for the reasons I mentioned. Its not just branding and support, although that is part of it.
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:13 PM
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If you shoot enough parts will start to break. Bolts will start to experience failures around 20,000 rounds (sheared off lugs, broken extractors, cam pin, gas rings, etc.). Most 3-gun shooters keep spare parts in their bags because things tend to break at the worst possible times.

If you don't shoot your rifles that much you will probably never run into these issues, but if you do things will start to break. Cheap parts will probably break sooner.
Truer words were never articulated.
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:08 AM
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Here, I just found this video. Watch and learn. This explains why not all BCGs are the same and why this AIM Surplus bolt is a FAILURE.

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Old 06-08-2017, 12:11 AM
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Call me a snob, but for BCG's I go with BCM, Colt, Toolcraft, or SOLGW

Here's a Toolcraft for less than you would spend on the Spikes:

https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Too...auto-011bn.htm

I've never inspected a Spike's so I can't comment on their quality. But the above is the way to go imo.


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Old 06-08-2017, 12:14 AM
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Their armorers carried them.

I don't have an armorer.

Pretty good.
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:35 AM
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This attitude is why every 6th thread on Calguns is about why their AR doesn't run right.

*every 3rd thread is how they can build a $600 rifle.
This. I used to recommend PSA to others, but no more. I've learned my lesson. DD or BCM for me.
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Old 06-08-2017, 4:04 AM
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Here, I just found this video. Watch and learn. This explains why not all BCGs are the same and why this AIM Surplus bolt is a FAILURE.

Thanks for posting that. Useful content in the video. Just wish it was a 1 minute instead of 23

Aside from that, am I the only one getting nervous as hell watching live shells flyin all over like that
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Old 06-08-2017, 7:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
No, not cheap parts, people have been keeping spare bolts with them for a long time. If you just do a google search 'keep a spare AR bolt' you'll get a bunch of hits about why you should keep a spare bolt, or better yet a spare BCG around. It's just easier to keep the bolt handy and its the most likely to fail.

First, the AR's bolt is known to be a potential failure point. Depending on what kind of shooting you do they might need to be replaced as early as 5000 rounds or as late as 15,000. I personally, think 10,000 is a good point to change. But that doesn't mean that a bolt won't fail sooner than that. I've read of quality bolts failing within a few hundred rounds....and sh1t can happen when you dump super hot gases on metal that is under extreme pressure. Even high quality bolts can potentially not live to their expected potential.

My BCGs are all BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske and I have one I bought with Riflegear logo during the great panic.

Piston driven rifles like AKs don't eat bolts like ARs do.

Magpul even makes a bolt and firing pin grip core for MIAD and MOE grips-->http://www.primaryarms.com/magpul-mi...lack-mag057blk
Interesting. Sounds like it doesn't matter where you get an AR bolt, carry a spare because it's highly likely to fail. Also sounds like get an AK, SKS, M1, maybe Mini-14, etc... if you want it to last.
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Old 06-08-2017, 8:37 AM
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Interesting. Sounds like it doesn't matter where you get an AR bolt, carry a spare because it's highly likely to fail. Also sounds like get an AK, SKS, M1, maybe Mini-14, etc... if you want it to last.
That is not at all what I said. You misinterpreted to fit with your bias. I own AKs, but my Go-To rifles are ARs. The potential reliability of the AK47 doesn't offset the poor ballistics of the 7.62x39, the inaccuracy, or the lack of parts interchangeability. Not to mention the lousy ergonomics and no last round hold open. I also own four Mini-14s, they suffer from their own issues. The Mini is a pretty decent weapon, but suffers from its own issues.

I have two designated Go-To ARs, which I would take for me and my wife, in the highly unlikely event that we had to leave home in a hurry. Each has a spare bolt and FP in the unlikely event that one fails. But I keep a spare LPK and an additional BCG in my bag. Cheap insurance.
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