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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #241  
Old 05-15-2016, 8:34 PM
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Well I had to use the gas block and barrel extension from my 16" barrel so now I'm saving up to get another 16. From what I hear those 20 fn assemblies are expensive so I just said screw it I'll do all the work myself so I know the Headspace is tight and everything has tighter tolerances, I've put 400 rounds through it so far and haven't had any issues

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  #242  
Old 05-16-2016, 9:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Press Check View Post
I was able to handle one with an MREX system mounted, and in my opinion, it did change the balance substantially, but then again, I don't use full extension of my support arm, so my opinion is subjective. Personally, to offset the balance, I would have to shorten the barrel.

Beyond the ergonomic standpoint, how end-users mount 4oz torches and 8oz PEQ's forward of the gas block, completely unbalancing the rifle, exceeds my comprehension. In my opinion, there's nothing worse, or more fatiguing, than a front-heavy rifle.

As for the proprietary magazines, they don't bother me either, but good grief, they are definitely heavy.
Yeah, I agree with all that. I really dislike front heavy rifles, I don't care for long barrels either unless the rifle is designated for long range shooting from a bi-pod or bench rest.

It one of my ARs gets heavy toward the front I put a heavier stock on it to balance it out. But I just don't want my SCARs to be heavy period.
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  #243  
Old 05-16-2016, 9:27 AM
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How many of you guys are planning on buying the FN 20" barrel assembly? I have that on my list. I want to have the foam cut out on my Pelican case for it so I can do the barrel swap at the range for long distance shooting.
How much time have you spent actually shooting the rifle?

So, you are going to set up a second barrel to change out at the range? Really? Because you won't be able to swap out barrels and just start shooting. You will have to re-zero. Even if you have a scope set up for the barrel before you remove it, once you re-install the barrel and scope they will not be zeroed well enough for "long distance" shooting.

Kinda makes me laugh though. Sorry.

That's why quick change barrels are kind of silly especially for long range shooting. Quick barrel changes are for two things. One, for barrels wrecked during extended automatic fire, and two, for changing from a 16" carbine barrel to a 10" CQB. Both will require a re-zero.

Well, I'm on my way to the range today... To actually do some shooting.
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  #244  
Old 05-16-2016, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
How much time have you spent actually shooting the rifle?

So, you are going to set up a second barrel to change out at the range? Really? Because you won't be able to swap out barrels and just start shooting. You will have to re-zero. Even if you have a scope set up for the barrel before you remove it, once you re-install the barrel and scope they will not be zeroed well enough for "long distance" shooting.

Kinda makes me laugh though. Sorry.

That's why quick change barrels are kind of silly especially for long range shooting. Quick barrel changes are for two things. One, for barrels wrecked during extended automatic fire, and two, for changing from a 16" carbine barrel to a 10" CQB. Both will require a re-zero.

Well, I'm on my way to the range today... To actually do some shooting.
SCARs return to zero system are among the best, if not the best. Of course it must be done properly in the correct sequence. I've done it and have been to course out of the state where a guy with a SBR asked to use another guys 16" barrel in his receiver while his SB was in his truck bed for *****s and giggles, while waiting to for the night to set in to conduct the night portion of the course.
The results of it being off zero were minuscule. Not to mention the change can be done within minutes if you take your time.

Also if you put a longer barrel the inherent increase in velocity of the projectile may make the re-zero nonexistent or again minuscule. As for re-zeroing as a whole when you dial up the distance you're going to be moving dials/turrets, windage, elevation and etc you are going to need to re-zero or adjust zero anyway so your initial zero at 300rds for example isn't going to be the same at 1,000yrds so accuracy at longer ranges still require adjustment. Although like I said the increase velocity may completely remove that variable. Now with that said when you say there's two things for quick change barrels with one of them being to swap a 16"barrel down to a 10" CQB barrel (you must be considering the 16s I believe and not the 17s because that wouldn't get the projectile to stabilize especially with the 1/12 twist rate rifling). You'd definitely have to re-zero in that scenario because you wouldn't be on paper at a given distance and live with the fact that you're essentially shooting a ball musket with improper rifling causing the projectile to yaw as soon as it gets out the barrel and if you have a suppressor you'd probably get a baffle strike and kiss the thing goodbye.

Plus how far is "long distance" anyway what is a "accuracy" all this is subjective that has common ground to many. For example a 1,000 is long range to some I know long range competitors that are shooting roughly double that. 1,000yrds isn't far at all, a 16" .30 cal rifle can get you there but certain factors and variable will make it easier like handloads, flawless form and trigger press what many believe is a long way of saying buy a good trigger and etc. Sure will a 20" barrel help uh?? Duh! The SCAR 17 itself is a rifle that can fulfill many other roles but if I wanted a dedicated long distance rifle I'd buy a SCAR 20s/MK20 in a heart beat. That's a long shot though(pun intended) I'd more than happily take a SCAR 17s 20"barrel. The only reason I'd prefer to just buy a MK20 is because it has shooter's intent in mind it's a sniper variant SCAR platform rifle not to mention 2 extra barrel screws for added support completely negligible of course, because they need to add them due to the longer receiver that extends pass and over the gasblock.

Sorry if this is on the long side, but it makes me laugh seeing someone who seems to actually shoots make mistakes like someone who doesn't. I want to refrain from putting others down on their own pursuit in how they see the image for their rifle. You don't need to shoot or shoot a lot to be a good shooter. Some may like their rifle in OEM configuration, some may not to each it's own YMMV. One of many things I do agree with Scott is that you must shoot to know what need to get what you want. If you're already a good shooter and want to go to 1,200yrds with a SCAR 17 a 20" barrel will make that a whole lot easier. Then when you get bored and need to some CQB simulation like from a car to a house and etc, a 16"will do but a 13" would fill the shoes a lot better. The SCAR platform is modular and serves in multiple roles because that's what SOCOM asked for, if you want to keep it the way it came in the box I'd say that the SCAR isn't being utilized to its full potential. It's like me saying I don't want my phone to tell me the time, take pictures, go on the Internet to buy stuff on Amazon for my SCAR, watch videos to kill time at work when I'm bored or accept a protective case that has credit card pockets.
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  #245  
Old 05-16-2016, 3:57 PM
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Best deal I could find at the moment and didn't want to wait until thanksgiving for the 30% off sale ...
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  #246  
Old 05-16-2016, 4:00 PM
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I think I'm done for now.... Magpul selector levers and moe+ pg, atlas bi pod with amd qd mount, Trijicon rmr on amd qd mount and also acog on arms mount, geisselle super scar trigger, kdg qd sling mounts front and back, tango down stubby and AAC blackout


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  #247  
Old 05-16-2016, 7:05 PM
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Got my Scout mounted on my Haley Throntail mount today. She's almost done!
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  #248  
Old 05-16-2016, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by NatetheGr8 View Post
Also if you put a longer barrel the inherent increase in velocity of the projectile may make the re-zero nonexistent or again minuscule. As for re-zeroing as a whole when you dial up the distance you're going to be moving dials/turrets, windage, elevation and etc you are going to need to re-zero or adjust zero anyway so your initial zero at 300rds for example isn't going to be the same at 1,000yrds so accuracy at longer ranges still require adjustment. Although like I said the increase velocity may complete remove that variable.
-2¢
You are essentially contradicting yourself here. It's either has RTZ or it doesn't. If two barrels share the same zero in a weapon that is purely coincidental.

At any rate, I suppose there are two types of long distance shooters.

There are some that start with a zeroed weapon, range their target if they don't know the distance, read the wind and then use some method of calculating and then dialing in or holding over for FIRST ROUND HITS.

And then there is someone like you that will just keep shooting and walk the rounds on to target.
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  #249  
Old 05-16-2016, 9:02 PM
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i love how this thread (somehow) has one star rating...
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  #250  
Old 05-16-2016, 9:22 PM
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Aint'ers gonna aint.
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  #251  
Old 05-16-2016, 9:27 PM
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Where can I get this mag in a 10/30?

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Got my Scout mounted on my Haley Throntail mount today. She's almost done!
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  #252  
Old 05-16-2016, 9:57 PM
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Aint'ers gonna aint.
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  #253  
Old 05-17-2016, 7:13 AM
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  #254  
Old 05-17-2016, 7:32 AM
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I heard the MK20 SSR is finally coming.

Also currently looking to pick up a 16S in the near future. I have a factory FN non-folding SCAR stock in FDE that is ready to go when I pick one up.
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  #255  
Old 05-17-2016, 9:47 AM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
You are essentially contradicting yourself here. It's either has RTZ or it doesn't. If two barrels share the same zero in a weapon that is purely coincidental.

At any rate, I suppose there are two types of long distance shooters.

There are some that start with a zeroed weapon, range their target if they don't know the distance, read the wind and then use some method of calculating and then dialing in or holding over for FIRST ROUND HITS.

And then there is someone like you that will just keep shooting and walk the rounds on to target.
RTZis a somewhat subjective. If I do a barrel swap and my rounds are only a click away from my initial zero before swap I'd take it as RTZ. The fact that realistically speaking that's the closest you can get to RTZ and the result are commonly duplicated . Which is why it sounds contradicting, just take for example a QR/QD optic mount many say they RTZ, but you'd may need to do small adjustments the fact is that it came off and was put back on no matter if it was in the same spot or not the same possibility of it going off zero exist; you'd just have to live with that. Also if two barrels share the same zero after swap , or the same barrel that was removed and installed back in has the same zero is that coincidental or RTZ? Contradicting? It depends right?

I can't say I "walk the rounds"on target in a bad way nor did I present any concrete info that I do, but under real conditions where the target is at unknown distances it's been done and you'd have to use your DOPE, to pretend like missing the first round or "walking the rounds" doesn't happened just shows that someone hasn't been humbled yet. If I was at a range where I know the target is at 50,100, 250 and etc I don't need to mess with it but of course I'd be in a controlled area and have the luxury of knowing. The situation that you presented is if you're at a range or controlled area, or you have a range finder but it doesn't mean wind or anything for that matter down at the target is same, or that the target and of course the bullet will be there entirely. You're semi-correct you have more of bench shooting background than what I have experienced. In my defense I rather not be good or spoiled at a given situation where I know most or all the factors and varibles when I know that we don't live in that world where I can have that perfect situation every time; I rather prepare for what is more realistic and almost uncontrolled such as stuff that I can't influence like elements that's just me, no matter if your a top shot mathematician and psychic there's always room for error because of the stuff you can't control. There's a ever changing situation with ever changing formulas, yes "walking rounds" doesn't look cool but it's what the best in uniform and best in competition do. "Walking rounds" is a very generic term that can mean anything from small or big adjustment from DOPE like leading or hold overs to dial turns that you constantly adjust the zero so bullets get to target.

As for holdovers used commonly with irons without a BDC/R would be difficult to get rounds on a precise location, I know you mean scopes but we need to educate and address it for others. Also to mention the most common reason you holdover or lead your reticle is if it's unknown distances in which you'd gauge the size of the target if possible, to determine the general distance of the target. Or you or the target is moving, wind/elemental variables and etc. So your process seems to different from most because why would you do the necessary calculations and/or still hold over? You'd be zeroed there's no reason to hold over unless you shoot at a further distant target that you were originally going to shoot or that target begins to move. It seems to me you're mixing equally good info of a static target with one that moves, first round hits are done they're easy and many movies influence people on how glamorous it is. Truth is "walking rounds" and re-engaging off your DOPE is the norm because there's no distance marker next to the target or flag to judge wind, which is why semi automatic precision rifles are being phased into the military and competitions. The unknown is scary that's for everything but at least you know one thing is for sure and that it will change, so the wind where your at isn't going to be the exactly the same where your at wether it's pattern or speed wise. Countless varibles difficulty mutiplies at extreme distances I chose wind as a ongoing example because that's what you used and is most commonly used it is not at all the only thing.

Also if you did the proper calculations in a situation where your reticle in your scope doesn't have an etched BDC unless you have a BDC that has all ranges where your targets are setup and every round you use, for a unknown distance target or moving target because some do move what would you do? You'd have to "walk the rounds" or use your DOPE but at that point your risking a miss of a first round hit. If you zero your rifle and range your target at further distance that is a fraction of click in adjustment and like you said wind(crosswind and wind going or going against) will make it difficult to get first round hits. We'd be more than likely to follow up with another shot.

I've gotten first round hits I've never found it something to pride myself by, that again seems to be what many find to be a trend that of course is for everything.
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  #256  
Old 05-17-2016, 9:50 AM
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Originally Posted by patriot_man View Post
I heard the MK20 SSR is finally coming.

Also currently looking to pick up a 16S in the near future. I have a factory FN non-folding SCAR stock in FDE that is ready to go when I pick one up.
I heard the same Patriot good to see you here on Calguns this time! I haven't got any rooted sources though, have you? My money is in hand brother I want one so bad!
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  #257  
Old 05-17-2016, 10:10 AM
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RTZis a somewhat subjective.
Not when we are talking about swapping between a 20in and 16in barrel on the same gun for the purposes of shooting "long range".

Thats the post we are all responding to right?

I can tell by your posts that you probably don't have a lot of long range experience, and I am far far far from an expert myself. But you shouldn't make bold claims about a platform's RTZ performance when it comes to long range shooting. Most long range shooters pride themselves in NOT walking their shots in and you can't do that without a perfect zero on their weapon.

And you don't always have to dial in your solution. You can hold with any reticle, even for wind.
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  #258  
Old 05-17-2016, 10:35 AM
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Ahaha the tip is the worst part trust her.
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  #259  
Old 05-17-2016, 11:05 AM
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Got my Scout mounted on my Haley Throntail mount today. She's almost done!
Nice rifle but I wouldn't leave the magnet in if I were you...
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  #260  
Old 05-17-2016, 11:10 AM
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Hey Nate I just wanna mention something from one of your posts. You were talking about a 16" barrel getting out to a thousand yards. When I went to sac valley for a course there was a guy shooting an 18" 308. I think he hit the target three times the entire day and all his shots were key holing. They had lost stability and were tumbling. It wasn't pretty hearing the rounds thud into the berm. I can only imagine what a 16" barrel would be like.
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Old 05-17-2016, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
Not when we are talking about swapping between a 20in and 16in barrel on the same gun for the purposes of shooting "long range".

Thats the post we are all responding to right?

I can tell by your posts that you probably don't have a lot of long range experience, and I am far far far from an expert myself. But you shouldn't make bold claims about a platform's RTZ performance when it comes to long range shooting. Most long range shooters pride themselves in NOT walking their shots in and you can't do that without a perfect zero on their weapon.

And you don't always have to dial in your solution. You can hold with any reticle, even for wind.
What is "long range"? To what distance is considered "long range"? There's a plethora of distances where they will retain the same zero with a barrel swap from a 16" and 20". Bold claims? I stated faceted based statements that's readily available. Yes most long range shooters pride themselves in not "walking", but again that's a generic term that has a wide array of definitions. To an expert shooter he may think "walking" is where his group is inches of center to where a lesser shooter would call "walking" when he's around the surrounding area of paper and working his way to target silhouette. Don't quite see the difficulty there. Also a perfect mechanical zero for the rifle is true which you fail to recognize the difference between scope zero when making adjustments. Which is why some scopes have set zero stops like NF. You don't always need to dial in your solution which is true if you don't have a ballistic reticle that remove dial adjustment; but please tell me how you can do that with a plain duplex with no mildots or Horus grid. This alone reflects what little you know. You sure can talk the talk the "walk" part seems to provide the greatest challenge for you.
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:23 PM
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Hey Nate I just wanna mention something from one of your posts. You were talking about a 16" barrel getting out to a thousand yards. When I went to sac valley for a course there was a guy shooting an 18" 308. I think he hit the target three times the entire day and all his shots were key holing. They had lost stability and were tumbling. It wasn't pretty hearing the rounds thud into the berm. I can only imagine what a 16" barrel would be like.
No worries brother is be happy to help I may be novice it seems but I'm a good novice. I love that range at Sac by the way if your local I'm envious. I usually drive very far to get to BLM and only have a few hours or so before hikers mess up the firing line, not to mention you need a good group of buddies to regulate that.

Yes a 16" will get you there a stainless one like the beast who made one from a blank would be awesome and give you an easier time. The fact it was keyholing means that his rounds were not of the correct weight or twist rate combo. With something close to a 17s profile and twist rate would get up there in loads. There's good charts and test out there that have guys using like 175grers up to like the mid 180s or less without keyholing but you'd have to tailor that specific load. It's difficult but not impossible brother. More skill sprinkled with luck is needed, along with the stuff that makes us spoiled good triggers and all. Whether or not the ballistics of that round is there is a whole different equation that I'll only apply when I got something shouldered.

Last edited by NatetheGr8; 05-17-2016 at 12:33 PM..
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  #263  
Old 05-17-2016, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by NatetheGr8 View Post
SCARs return to zero system are among the best, if not the best. Of course it must be done properly in the correct sequence. I've done it and have been to course out of the state where a guy with a SBR asked to use another guys 16" barrel in his receiver while his SB was in his truck bed for *****s and giggles, while waiting to for the night to set in to conduct the night portion of the course.
The results of it being off zero were minuscule. Not to mention the change can be done within minutes if you take your time.

Also if you put a longer barrel the inherent increase in velocity of the projectile may make the re-zero nonexistent or again minuscule. As for re-zeroing as a whole when you dial up the distance you're going to be moving dials/turrets, windage, elevation and etc you are going to need to re-zero or adjust zero anyway so your initial zero at 300rds for example isn't going to be the same at 1,000yrds so accuracy at longer ranges still require adjustment. Although like I said the increase velocity may completely remove that variable. Now with that said when you say there's two things for quick change barrels with one of them being to swap a 16"barrel down to a 10" CQB barrel (you must be considering the 16s I believe and not the 17s because that wouldn't get the projectile to stabilize especially with the 1/12 twist rate rifling). You'd definitely have to re-zero in that scenario because you wouldn't be on paper at a given distance and live with the fact that you're essentially shooting a ball musket with improper rifling causing the projectile to yaw as soon as it gets out the barrel and if you have a suppressor you'd probably get a baffle strike and kiss the thing goodbye.

Plus how far is "long distance" anyway what is a "accuracy" all this is subjective that has common ground to many. For example a 1,000 is long range to some I know long range competitors that are shooting roughly double that. 1,000yrds isn't far at all, a 16" .30 cal rifle can get you there but certain factors and variable will make it easier like handloads, flawless form and trigger press what many believe is a long way of saying buy a good trigger and etc. Sure will a 20" barrel help uh?? Duh! The SCAR 17 itself is a rifle that can fulfill many other roles but if I wanted a dedicated long distance rifle I'd buy a SCAR 20s/MK20 in a heart beat. That's a long shot though(pun intended) I'd more than happily take a SCAR 17s 20"barrel. The only reason I'd prefer to just buy a MK20 is because it has shooter's intent in mind it's a sniper variant SCAR platform rifle not to mention 2 extra barrel screws for added support completely negligible of course, because they need to add them due to the longer receiver that extends pass and over the gasblock.

Sorry if this is on the long side, but it makes me laugh seeing someone who seems to actually shoots make mistakes like someone who doesn't. I want to refrain from putting others down on their own pursuit in how they see the image for their rifle. You don't need to shoot or shoot a lot to be a good shooter. Some may like their rifle in OEM configuration, some may not to each it's own YMMV. One of many things I do agree with Scott is that you must shoot to know what need to get what you want. If you're already a good shooter and want to go to 1,200yrds with a SCAR 17 a 20" barrel will make that a whole lot easier. Then when you get bored and need to some CQB simulation like from a car to a house and etc, a 16"will do but a 13" would fill the shoes a lot better. The SCAR platform is modular and serves in multiple roles because that's what SOCOM asked for, if you want to keep it the way it came in the box I'd say that the SCAR isn't being utilized to its full potential. It's like me saying I don't want my phone to tell me the time, take pictures, go on the Internet to buy stuff on Amazon for my SCAR, watch videos to kill time at work when I'm bored or accept a protective case that has credit card pockets.
-2¢
Well, sorry but I know from actual experience that changing or even removing a barrel or scope can/will change the point if impact relative to the aiming point. And yes, I know how to do it properly, I have the 62 in. lb. torque wrench and the proper order, etc. I've done it a few times.

Barrel changes

First, the chances are extremely slim that changing barrels will result in the same zero. Even if the barrel is the same manufacture and same length. Second, even removing the barrel and reinstalling it can change zero. It doesn't always, but it has happened to me a couple times.

If you change the length and type of barrel expecting to use the same scope for long range you are dreaming. Between the change in velocity and the physical differences in the barrel you won't even come close unless it is a pure freak.

Now, to the optics. If you have two scopes one for your 16 inch barrel and one for your twenty the two scopes will have different zeros, fine. But just the act of removing the scope and re-installing with a good QD mount can easily change zero.

That's why the mount makers don't claim absolute return to zero. They usually claim something like a deviation of <1 moa. Which might be fine for 100 yards, but it sucks for 600-800 yards (long distance).

You said, "Also if you put a longer barrel the inherent increase in velocity of the projectile may make the re-zero nonexistent or again minuscule." Not minuscule, going from a 16" to 20" barrel will result in significant variation at long distance otherwise what is the point of the 20" barrel? I could look up all the data, but velocity and change in spin will result in a significant change in POI. Have you ever heard of spin drift? I have never heard anyone argue anything else. And this doesn't even count the differences in the barrel machining and barrel shock (some call it harmonics) which differs based on length, materials, and profile.

You are just plain wrong, and I don't want to be too mean to you, because you felt sorry for CALGS (IIRC) because I squashed him and challenged his misconceptions and lack of knowledge. But don't go out on a limb further spreading misinformation.

You also contradict yourself or misunderstand why a longer barrel is used for long distance. You said,"Sure will a 20" barrel help uh?? Duh! The SCAR 17 itself is a rifle that can fulfill many other roles but if I wanted a dedicated long distance rifle I'd buy a SCAR 20s/MK20 in a heart beat." You implied that the barrel will help a shooter, how?

Then you said, "Also if you put a longer barrel the inherent increase in velocity of the projectile may make the re-zero nonexistent or again minuscule." So, if the barrel will really help with long distance shooting (and I agree), then how can there be a "miniscule" change in POI. If the difference is miniscule, what is the point of changing to a 20" barrel? The answer, of course, is that the difference is not miniscule. If you are only shooting 300-400 yards the difference might be small, but then why install a 20" barrel?

Here you are half right, "Now with that said when you say there's two things for quick change barrels with one of them being to swap a 16"barrel down to a 10" CQB barrel (you must be considering the 16s I believe and not the 17s because that wouldn't get the projectile to stabilize especially with the 1/12 twist rate rifling)."

Right, I was talking SCAR 16 at that point because it came to mind first as being a good use of the quick change barrel, but there is also a CQB barrel for the SCAR 17 which I believe is 13". I believe they use SOST ammo. The point is that a fast change barrel is not something you want or need for a long range rifle that depends on repeatability. You just don't see precision rifle makers touting their quick change barrels.

In any case, it doesn't really seem like you completely understand what you are arguing for. I tried to suggest the right path, but I get to the point where I get weary of trying to teach. And these thing always bring up more misunderstandings which leads to more explanation...arrg. You'll just have to figure it out for yourself.
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:31 PM
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I think I'm done for now.... Magpul selector levers and moe+ pg, atlas bi pod with amd qd mount, Trijicon rmr on amd qd mount and also acog on arms mount, geisselle super scar trigger, kdg qd sling mounts front and back, tango down stubby and AAC blackout


NICE, I like the RMR too.
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:37 PM
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You are essentially contradicting yourself here. It's either has RTZ or it doesn't. If two barrels share the same zero in a weapon that is purely coincidental.

At any rate, I suppose there are two types of long distance shooters.

There are some that start with a zeroed weapon, range their target if they don't know the distance, read the wind and then use some method of calculating and then dialing in or holding over for FIRST ROUND HITS.

And then there is someone like you that will just keep shooting and walk the rounds on to target.
Yes, this is exactly right. You'll use up a lot of time and ammo trying to get back on target.

OP: If you want a precision rifle don't waste your money on a SCAR 20" barrel, just go buy a RPR (Ruger Precision Rifle) for about $1500. Shoot it and then you'll know whether you like shooting long distance. You can always sell an RPR for what you paid for it.
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:41 PM
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i love how this thread (somehow) has one star rating...
Someone got butt hurt... so sad.
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:54 PM
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RTZis a somewhat subjective. If I do a barrel swap and my rounds are only a click away from my initial zero before swap I'd take it as RTZ. The fact that realistically speaking that's the closest you can get to RTZ and the result are commonly duplicated . Which is why it sounds contradicting, just take for example a QR/QD optic mount many say they RTZ, but you'd may need to do small adjustments the fact is that it came off and was put back on no matter if it was in the same spot or not the same possibility of it going off zero exist; you'd just have to live with that. Also if two barrels share the same zero after swap , or the same barrel that was removed and installed back in has the same zero is that coincidental or RTZ? Contradicting? It depends right?

I can't say I "walk the rounds"on target in a bad way nor did I present any concrete info that I do, but under real conditions where the target is at unknown distances it's been done and you'd have to use your DOPE, to pretend like missing the first round or "walking the rounds" doesn't happened just shows that someone hasn't been humbled yet. If I was at a range where I know the target is at 50,100, 250 and etc I don't need to mess with it but of course I'd be in a controlled area and have the luxury of knowing. The situation that you presented is if you're at a range or controlled area, or you have a range finder but it doesn't mean wind or anything for that matter down at the target is same, or that the target and of course the bullet will be there entirely. You're semi-correct you have more of bench shooting background than what I have experienced. In my defense I rather not be good or spoiled at a given situation where I know most or all the factors and varibles when I know that we don't live in that world where I can have that perfect situation every time; I rather prepare for what is more realistic and almost uncontrolled such as stuff that I can't influence like elements that's just me, no matter if your a top shot mathematician and psychic there's always room for error because of the stuff you can't control. There's a ever changing situation with ever changing formulas, yes "walking rounds" doesn't look cool but it's what the best in uniform and best in competition do. "Walking rounds" is a very generic term that can mean anything from small or big adjustment from DOPE like leading or hold overs to dial turns that you constantly adjust the zero so bullets get to target.

As for holdovers used commonly with irons without a BDC/R would be difficult to get rounds on a precise location, I know you mean scopes but we need to educate and address it for others. Also to mention the most common reason you holdover or lead your reticle is if it's unknown distances in which you'd gauge the size of the target if possible, to determine the general distance of the target. Or you or the target is moving, wind/elemental variables and etc. So your process seems to different from most because why would you do the necessary calculations and/or still hold over? You'd be zeroed there's no reason to hold over unless you shoot at a further distant target that you were originally going to shoot or that target begins to move. It seems to me you're mixing equally good info of a static target with one that moves, first round hits are done they're easy and many movies influence people on how glamorous it is. Truth is "walking rounds" and re-engaging off your DOPE is the norm because there's no distance marker next to the target or flag to judge wind, which is why semi automatic precision rifles are being phased into the military and competitions. The unknown is scary that's for everything but at least you know one thing is for sure and that it will change, so the wind where your at isn't going to be the exactly the same where your at wether it's pattern or speed wise. Countless varibles difficulty mutiplies at extreme distances I chose wind as a ongoing example because that's what you used and is most commonly used it is not at all the only thing.

Also if you did the proper calculations in a situation where your reticle in your scope doesn't have an etched BDC unless you have a BDC that has all ranges where your targets are setup and every round you use, for a unknown distance target or moving target because some do move what would you do? You'd have to "walk the rounds" or use your DOPE but at that point your risking a miss of a first round hit. If you zero your rifle and range your target at further distance that is a fraction of click in adjustment and like you said wind(crosswind and wind going or going against) will make it difficult to get first round hits. We'd be more than likely to follow up with another shot.

I've gotten first round hits I've never found it something to pride myself by, that again seems to be what many find to be a trend that of course is for everything.
-2more¢
RTZ is subjective?
So much nonsense I don't know where to start. Please keep the 2 cents worth of your "knowledge". Thanks.
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:56 PM
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I heard the MK20 SSR is finally coming.

Also currently looking to pick up a 16S in the near future. I have a factory FN non-folding SCAR stock in FDE that is ready to go when I pick one up.
I'm almost afraid to ask this, but what is the advantage of the FN non-folding stock? And where have you seen this?
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:59 PM
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Not when we are talking about swapping between a 20in and 16in barrel on the same gun for the purposes of shooting "long range".

Thats the post we are all responding to right?

I can tell by your posts that you probably don't have a lot of long range experience, and I am far far far from an expert myself. But you shouldn't make bold claims about a platform's RTZ performance when it comes to long range shooting. Most long range shooters pride themselves in NOT walking their shots in and you can't do that without a perfect zero on their weapon.

And you don't always have to dial in your solution. You can hold with any reticle, even for wind.
Correct.
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Old 05-17-2016, 1:03 PM
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What is "long range"? To what distance is considered "long range"? There's a plethora of distances where they will retain the same zero with a barrel swap from a 16" and 20". Bold claims? I stated faceted based statements that's readily available. Yes most long range shooters pride themselves in not "walking", but again that's a generic term that has a wide array of definitions. To an expert shooter he may think "walking" is where his group is inches of center to where a lesser shooter would call "walking" when he's around the surrounding area of paper and working his way to target silhouette. Don't quite see the difficulty there. Also a perfect mechanical zero for the rifle is true which you fail to recognize the difference between scope zero when making adjustments. Which is why some scopes have set zero stops like NF. You don't always need to dial in your solution which is true if you don't have a ballistic reticle that remove dial adjustment; but please tell me how you can do that with a plain duplex with no mildots or Horus grid. This alone reflects what little you know. You sure can talk the talk the "walk" part seems to provide the greatest challenge for you.
A really experienced shooter can do a holdover without a grid. You really don't know much. The more you post the more you reveal your lack of experience and knowledge.
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Old 05-17-2016, 1:27 PM
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What is "long range"? To what distance is considered "long range"? There's a plethora of distances where they will retain the same zero with a barrel swap from a 16" and 20". Bold claims? I stated faceted based statements that's readily available. Yes most long range shooters pride themselves in not "walking", but again that's a generic term that has a wide array of definitions. To an expert shooter he may think "walking" is where his group is inches of center to where a lesser shooter would call "walking" when he's around the surrounding area of paper and working his way to target silhouette. Don't quite see the difficulty there. Also a perfect mechanical zero for the rifle is true which you fail to recognize the difference between scope zero when making adjustments. Which is why some scopes have set zero stops like NF. You don't always need to dial in your solution which is true if you don't have a ballistic reticle that remove dial adjustment; but please tell me how you can do that with a plain duplex with no mildots or Horus grid. This alone reflects what little you know. You sure can talk the talk the "walk" part seems to provide the greatest challenge for you.
A good indicator that someone doesn't understand what they are talking about is how long it takes them to explain it.
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Old 05-17-2016, 1:51 PM
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No worries brother is be happy to help I may be novice it seems but I'm a good novice. I love that range at Sac by the way if your local I'm envious. I usually drive very far to get to BLM and only have a few hours or so before hikers mess up the firing line, not to mention you need a good group of buddies to regulate that.

Yes a 16" will get you there a stainless one like the beast who made one from a blank would be awesome and give you an easier time. The fact it was keyholing means that his rounds were not of the correct weight or twist rate combo. With something close to a 17s profile and twist rate would get up there in loads. There's good charts and test out there that have guys using like 175grers up to like the mid 180s or less without keyholing but you'd have to tailor that specific load. It's difficult but not impossible brother. More skill sprinkled with luck is needed, along with the stuff that makes us spoiled good triggers and all. Whether or not the ballistics of that round is there is a whole different equation that I'll only apply when I got something shouldered.
Sac valley is two hours from me and I've only been once. I think you failed to read the point of my post. It had nothing to do with twist rate the barrel wasn't long enough to achieve high enough muzzle velocity. Therefore the rounds went subsonic before reaching the thousand yard target. It had nothing to do with twist rate as it was discussed at the lunch break in the middle of the clinic. My point was I've seen 18" barrels fail to reach the velocity required to accurately shoot 1k. I highly doubt a16" barrel will do it. Especially one with the profile of a scar 17.
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Old 05-17-2016, 6:18 PM
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Ordered some Mlok ergo side and bottom replacement rails from PMM, and their BCD in FDE. I was going to get the KDG MREX 6.5 extended rail but decided not to add more weight than I did with the Vortex scope. I have already installed the KDG Talon ambi 45/90 large rt side and small left side selector levers which helps with thumb placement when holding the grip wrapped Ergo grip, and PMM oversized mag release in FDE. Also got the Borka 62 in lb torque wrench for the 20" barrel when it's time.

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Old 05-17-2016, 9:57 PM
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Ordered some Mlok ergo side and bottom replacement rails PMM, and their BCD in FDE. I was going to get the KDG MREX 6.5 extended rail but decided not to add more weight than I did with the Vortex scope. I have already installed the KDG Talon ambi 45/90 large rt side and small left side selector levers which helps with thumb placement when holding the grip wrapped Ergo grip, and PMM oversized mag release in FDE. Also got the Borka 62 in lb torque wrench for the 20" barrel when it's time.
Have you gotten your bcd. I ordered mine on may 1st and still waiting. They were being hard coated. I still debating on which selectors to get (parker , kdg or the magpul). I used the Borka tool when I installed my kdg rail.
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Old 05-17-2016, 11:00 PM
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Well, sorry but I know from actual experience that changing or even removing a barrel or scope can/will change the point if impact relative to the aiming point. And yes, I know how to do it properly, I have the 62 in. lb. torque wrench and the proper order, etc. I've done it a few times.

Barrel changes

First, the chances are extremely slim that changing barrels will result in the same zero. Even if the barrel is the same manufacture and same length. Second, even removing the barrel and reinstalling it can change zero. It doesn't always, but it has happened to me a couple times.

(1)Extremely slim results in same zero even if it's the same length. Removing the barrel and reinstalling it can change zero, it doesn't ALWAYS but it has happened to you a couple of times. So your saying even if you remove and install the same barrel of the same manufacter and length it doesn't always change zero but it has happened to you a couple times uhm wow. It returns to zero with the best of them in its class is that not what I said. RTZ is subjective if you're a spoiled with a some tight group that people punch out in a controlled condition and know distance probably under the rounds capability but I'd ask for better results myself but I'm not spoiled.

If you change the length and type of barrel expecting to use the same scope for long range you are dreaming. Between the change in velocity and the physical differences in the barrel you won't even come close unless it is a pure freak.

(2) What is "long range"? What is a "zero"? A zero to many with realistic experince knows that if they can do a barrel swap and still hit let's say a man size steel target I say it's an acceptable return to zero not to mention it's combat and ballistically effective.
https://youtu.be/_AYqHFslb1Q
In the video the change the length and type of the barrel completely using the same scope while still hitting a man size steel target using the same scope. One more thing they use a 4 screw barrel locking system that requires a torque wrench sound familiar? Is 600yrds "long range" to some more of than half the country believe so most of them in the eastern coast.

Now, to the optics. If you have two scopes one for your 16 inch barrel and one for your twenty the two scopes will have different zeros, fine. But just the act of removing the scope and re-installing with a good QD mount can easily change zero.That's why the mount makers don't claim absolute return to zero. They usually claim something like a deviation of <1 moa. Which might be fine for 100 yards, but it sucks for 600-800 yards (long distance).

(3)You're right no mount makers will ever say that.
http://www.guns.com/2015/05/29/kdgs-...eturn-to-zero/
Further distance scope mounts are currently being tested but not by just them. More R&D and testing so shows us that they care.

You said, "Also if you put a longer barrel the inherent increase in velocity of the projectile may make the re-zero nonexistent or again minuscule." Not minuscule, going from a 16" to 20" barrel will result in significant variation at long distance otherwise what is the point of the 20" barrel? I could look up all the data, but velocity and change in spin will result in a significant change in POI. Have you ever heard of spin drift? I have never heard anyone argue anything else. And this doesn't even count the differences in the barrel machining and barrel shock (some call it harmonics) which differs based on length, materials, and profile.

(4) see (2) if you'd like to again. Yes maybe for extreme distances yes you're right but we're talking about possibly a 800, 1,000-1,200yrd rifle in which spin drift has a small factor to be applied. Spin drift begins to be a big factor at 1,150m-1,200m range. 16" barrel on a 17s is the same material, forging and profile as a 20" SCAR 17s barrel. Unlike the MK20 barrels All 17s barrels or barrels have standards before shipping and are test fired. Do people want them to out shoot the barrels themselves?

You are just plain wrong, and I don't want to be too mean to you, because you felt sorry for CALGS (IIRC) because I squashed him and challenged his misconceptions and lack of knowledge. But don't go out on a limb further spreading misinformation.

(5)Misinformation that has been cited and readily available ok I guess.

You also contradict yourself or misunderstand why a longer barrel is used for long distance. You said,"Sure will a 20" barrel help uh?? Duh! The SCAR 17 itself is a rifle that can fulfill many other roles but if I wanted a dedicated long distance rifle I'd buy a SCAR 20s/MK20 in a heart beat." You implied that the barrel will help a shooter, how?

(6) For the same reasons you tried to call me out on. Didn't you say "Not minuscule, going from a 16" to 20" barrel will result in significant variation at long distance otherwise what is the point of the 20" barrel? I could look up all the data, but velocity and change in spin will result in a significant change in POI". Your asking me how? But somehow that inherent velocity I mention remains unrecognized when people feel like it. Like your statement below.

Then you said, "Also if you put a longer barrel the inherent increase in velocity of the projectile may make the re-zero nonexistent or again minuscule." So, if the barrel will really help with long distance shooting (and I agree), then how can there be a "miniscule" change in POI. If the difference is miniscule, what is the point of changing to a 20" barrel? The answer, of course, is that the difference is not miniscule. If you are only shooting 300-400 yards the difference might be small, but then why install a 20" barrel?

(7) Because the system is subject to human error. Also it's more like 800yrds-1,000yrds. A few clicks here and there at that distance with a barrel swap to perhaps go further is what many may say is minuscule to how much more distance they can gain.

Here you are half right, "Now with that said when you say there's two things for quick change barrels with one of them being to swap a 16"barrel down to a 10" CQB barrel (you must be considering the 16s I believe and not the 17s because that wouldn't get the projectile to stabilize especially with the 1/12 twist rate rifling)."Right, I was talking SCAR 16 at that point because it came to mind first as being a good use of the quick change barrel, but there is also a CQB barrel for the SCAR 17 which I believe is 13". I believe they use SOST ammo. The point is that a fast change barrel is not something you want or need for a long range rifle that depends on repeatability. You just don't see precision rifle makers touting their quick change barrels.

(7) The point is that they also have a SCAR 17s barrel in 20". SRS rifle see (2) or this
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nlTU8_iK7o
Well beyond ranges that we are discussing with a rifle that has the same quick change barrel system as the SCAR.

In any case, it doesn't really seem like you completely understand what you are arguing for. I tried to suggest the right path, but I get to the point where I get weary of trying to teach. And these thing always bring up more misunderstandings which leads to more explanation...arrg. You'll just have to figure it out for yourself.

(8) It didn't work all the other times because it started out not working, but I guess we are both weary then with good reason to be.
See (#'s)

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Old 05-17-2016, 11:09 PM
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Sac valley is two hours from me and I've only been once. I think you failed to read the point of my post. It had nothing to do with twist rate the barrel wasn't long enough to achieve high enough muzzle velocity. Therefore the rounds went subsonic before reaching the thousand yard target. It had nothing to do with twist rate as it was discussed at the lunch break in the middle of the clinic. My point was I've seen 18" barrels fail to reach the velocity required to accurately shoot 1k. I highly doubt a16" barrel will do it. Especially one with the profile of a scar 17.
You're right.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ1XIukKfaI

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RlmwhY5pWUM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HycYDZ_Ae2o
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Old 05-17-2016, 11:13 PM
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A good indicator that someone doesn't understand what they are talking about is how long it takes them to explain it.
Being thorough is a bad thing hmm contradicting if some one who takes their time to thoroughly get first shot hits.
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Old 05-18-2016, 4:06 AM
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I heard the same Patriot good to see you here on Calguns this time! I haven't got any rooted sources though, have you? My money is in hand brother I want one so bad!
Sorry brother, it was pure luck that I got mine. Had to barter with a buddy of mine at Badger Ordnance that had the hook ups.
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Old 05-18-2016, 10:14 AM
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See (#'s)
Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. You really should just leave it alone. It's a little embarrassing.
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Old 05-18-2016, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by patriot_man View Post
Sorry brother, it was pure luck that I got mine. Had to barter with a buddy of mine at Badger Ordnance that had the hook ups.
Keep me updated brother!
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