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  #1  
Old 01-27-2018, 4:19 PM
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Default Night vision

Looking for a night vision option in the $2K price range, either gen 3 or thermal that can be used on a variety of rifles and scopes (as opposed to a designated scope) for ADC work outside CA. Any recommendations?
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Old 01-27-2018, 4:23 PM
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Get on the Cool Guy Gear fb group, gen 3 14's pop up all the time for around $2k if you want a headmounted option. If you want a clip on for a rifle, expect to pay $5,000+. Youll need to decide if you want NVG or thermal though. They are completely different tools.

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Old 01-27-2018, 5:26 PM
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What's better for 360* scanning?
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Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

The U.S. city with the most restrictive gun laws in the nation, Washington, D.C., has the highest murder rate at 24 per 100,000.
The state with the most unrestrictive gun regulations, Vermont, has the lowest murder rate at 0.48 per 100,000.
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Old 01-28-2018, 2:02 AM
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Originally Posted by BC9696 View Post
What's better for 360* scanning?
Head mounted PVS14 if on a budget, if not, go mod3 or sentinels. Clipons are pretty undesireable for scouting as you need to lift up your rifle to see/identify which has the potential of violating firearms safety rules (you need to point your weapon at what you want to identify)

I use mod3 on an Mtek

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Old 01-29-2018, 10:02 AM
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With a $2k budget, a -14 is probably your best bet.
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:49 AM
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Having used both night vision and thermal, I'd go thermal every time. Owning both is ideal, but given a choice between the 2, thermal wins IMHO.

If you wait for a sale, you can get the Armasight Predator 336 for around $2K. It's too bad that you didn't ask last year. When they came out with the Predator 336 it sold for $1,999. Now it's gone up to $2,800 to $3,000 everywhere. For awhile, you could get Cabela's version of it for $1,499. But Cabelas discontinued their version of it quickly for some reason.

If you're considering night vision, consider Digital. It's far cheaper and pretty darn good. You can use it in daylight and there's no bloom problems at night. You'll never destroy it like NV with an intensifier. There's good units out there in the $600 to $1,000 range.
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Old 01-29-2018, 12:16 PM
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I disagree that thermal is superior. Thermal is only really good for detection; NV is a more flexible tool. Regarding light damaging the tube, thats not an issue with current gen 3 autogated tubes.
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Old 01-29-2018, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CouchOperator View Post
I disagree that thermal is superior. Thermal is only really good for detection; NV is a more flexible tool. Regarding light damaging the tube, thats not an issue with current gen 3 autogated tubes.
Like I said, owning both is ideal.

You scan with the thermal, and walk and shoot with the NV.

But if you can only choose one, the thermal wins because you can walk and shoot with it just fine. But spotting tangos with just NV is much harder than with thermal. Bloom also causes problems with NV, not with thermal. And again, thermal is day or night.
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Old 01-29-2018, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
Like I said, owning both is ideal.

You scan with the thermal, and walk and shoot with the NV.

But if you can only choose one, the thermal wins because you can walk and shoot with it just fine. But spotting tangos with just NV is much harder than with thermal. Bloom also causes problems with NV, not with thermal. And again, thermal is day or night.
Thermal wins as far as detection, but NV is the far better tool for target identification. Also, I would like to see you navigate through rough terrain using only thermal at night...
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Old 01-29-2018, 4:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HooYah View Post
Thermal wins as far as detection, but NV is the far better tool for target identification. Also, I would like to see you navigate through rough terrain using only thermal at night...
I use it regularly on rough terrain and never had a problem. Perhaps you're using a poor thermal sight. Never had a problem with target ID.
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Old 01-29-2018, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
I use it regularly on rough terrain and never had a problem. Perhaps you're using a poor thermal sight. Never had a problem with target ID unless you're shooting up close and personal. If you're that close, you either screwed up bad or you're a ninja god.
Can you use thermal for driving a vehicle at speed with no visible lights on at night? Can thermal detect someone that's hiding behind a glass window? Have you ever used thermal in a real arena besides hunting game animals?

The fact that you insist thermal is more versatile than NV suggests you have limited experience using I² devices.
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Old 01-29-2018, 5:22 PM
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For hunting thermal wins without a doubt.
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Old 01-29-2018, 5:43 PM
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Originally Posted by HooYah View Post
Can you use thermal for driving a vehicle at speed with no visible lights on at night? Can thermal detect someone that's hiding behind a glass window? Have you ever used thermal in a real arena besides hunting game animals?

The fact that you insist thermal is more versatile than NV suggests you have limited experience using I² devices.
Can you use night vision to see someone in the bushes with camouflage on and not moving? How about the ability to tell that a vehicle was was recently driven? Ability to locate a weapon in the grass that was just fired?

Both have pros and cons.
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Old 01-29-2018, 5:43 PM
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Originally Posted by HooYah View Post
Can you use thermal for driving a vehicle at speed with no visible lights on at night? Can thermal detect someone that's hiding behind a glass window? Have you ever used thermal in a real arena besides hunting game animals?

The fact that you insist thermal is more versatile than NV suggests you have limited experience using I² devices.
Why would the OP be driving at night with NV? He isn't in the 'stan driving a Humvee on patrol is he? What does the acronym ADC mean?

I assumed he was using it on foot for hunting.
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Old 01-29-2018, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
Why would the OP be driving at night with NV? He isn't in the 'stan driving a Humvee on patrol is he? What does the acronym ADC mean?

I assumed he was using it on foot.
Lots of hunters scout for animals while driving around at night with NV. They do it all the time in Texas when hunting predator animals and hogs.

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Old 01-29-2018, 6:20 PM
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Lots of hunters scout for animals while driving around at night with NV. They do it all the time in Texas when hunting predator animals and hogs.

When I've done that it's from the back of the pickup holding onto the roll bars, or in the cab with all windows down. I'll admit the driver usually had NV. I've been in an old bumpy jeep using thermal with the windscreen down. It's good from an ATV too.

But mostly it's been on foot. Once we have an idea of where they are, you have to approach from away on foot or they'll spook.

As I've said, it's best to have both. You use thermal to scan, then switch to NV to approach. But when you lose your targets in the dark, it's always nice to flip up the NV and re-acquire using thermal.

But, if I had to have only one, it would be thermal. I can do it all with thermal. You can do it all with NV too, it's just much easier to find them with thermal. Especially when you're in brush or forest.
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Old 01-29-2018, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivan275 View Post
Can you use night vision to see someone in the bushes with camouflage on and not moving? Yes How about the ability to tell that a vehicle was was recently driven? Touch the hood Ability to locate a weapon in the grass that was just fired? Onboard IR illuminators will cause glint

Both have pros and cons.
Above
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Old 02-02-2018, 7:46 PM
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Just be careful because all tubes are not created equal. Just because its cheap does not mean that you are getting quality. Good intensifiers seem to get better with time because it requires awhile to burn them in. If you get crap from the start they get worse.... I have seen so many crappy tubes coming to market lately.
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Old 02-03-2018, 1:45 AM
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Thats why you get a pic of the unit on against a white backgound to check for blems, as well as a spec sheet...
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Old 02-03-2018, 4:19 AM
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You do know that mounting night vision scopes on rifles is illegal in calif.

It comes under the old fish and game laws against the Korean war INFRARED SNIPERSCOPE in the fish and game laws.
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=580426

I know about this because the Kern county sheriffs department took my ANPVS 2 starlight scope and M1A back in 1982.
I found out a couple years ago they still use the scope in the department for watching drug criminals.
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by augoldminer View Post
You do know that mounting night vision scopes on rifles is illegal in calif.

It comes under the old fish and game laws against the Korean war INFRARED SNIPERSCOPE in the fish and game laws.
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=580426

I know about this because the Kern county sheriffs department took my ANPVS 2 starlight scope and M1A back in 1982.
I found out a couple years ago they still use the scope in the department for watching drug criminals.
hence, helmet-mounted
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by augoldminer View Post
You do know that mounting night vision scopes on rifles is illegal in calif.

It comes under the old fish and game laws against the Korean war INFRARED SNIPERSCOPE in the fish and game laws.
CA laws restricts "sniperscopes". [PC 468]
^Which makes...
Active IR scope with magnification = illegal [PC 468]
Active IR scope with no magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification and an IR illuminator = illegal [PC 468]
Passive IR scope with no magnifcation = legal
Passive IR scope with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Active IR goggles with magnification = legal
Active IR goggles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Passive IR googles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Active IR bino/mono-culars with magnification = legal
Active IR bino/mono-culars with no magnification = legal
Passive IR bino/mono-culars with magnification = legal
Passive IR bino/mono-culars with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Passive IR bino/mono-culars with no magnification = legal
Passive IR bino/mono-culars with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal

CA laws also makes any "night vision equipment" illegal to use while hunting or assisting with hunting. [FGC 2005(c)]
^Which makes all (IR/thermal) devices (scopes, binoculars, monoculars, goggles, cameras) illegal to possess/use while hunting.


Penal Code 468
Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.
This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

Fish & Game Code 2005
(a) Except as otherwise authorized by this section, it is unlawful to use an artificial light to assist in the taking of a game bird, game mammal, or game fish.
(b) It is unlawful for one or more persons to throw or cast the rays of a spotlight, headlight, or other artificial light on a highway or in a field, woodland, or forest where game mammals, fur-bearing mammals, or nongame mammals are commonly found, or upon a game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or nongame mammal, while having in his or her possession or under his or her control a firearm or weapon with which that mammal could be killed, even though the mammal is not killed, injured, shot at, or otherwise pursued.
(c) It is unlawful to use or possess night vision equipment to assist in the taking of a bird, mammal, amphibian, reptile, or fish. For purposes of this subdivision, “night vision equipment” includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(1) An infrared or similar light, used in connection with an electronic viewing device.
(2) An optical device, including, but not limited to, binoculars or a scope, that uses electrical or battery powered light amplifying circuits.
(d) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(1) Sport fishing in ocean waters, or other waters where night fishing is permitted, if an artificial light is not used on or as part of the fishing tackle.
(2) Commercial fishing.
(3) The taking of mammals governed by Article 2 (commencing with Section 4180) of Chapter 3 of Part 3 of Division 4.
(4) The use of a hand-held flashlight that is no larger and emits no more light than a two-cell, three-volt flashlight, and is not affixed to a weapon.
(5) The use of a lamp or lantern that does not cast a directional beam of light.
(6) Headlights of a motor vehicle that are operated in a usual manner and without attempt or intent to locate a game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or nongame mammal.
(7) An owner of land devoted to the agricultural industry, or the owner’s employee, while on that land.
(8) An owner of land devoted to the agricultural industry, or the owner’s employee, while on land controlled by the owner in connection with the agricultural industry.
(9) Other uses as the commission may authorize by regulation.
(e) A person shall not be arrested for violation of this section except by a peace officer.
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Old 02-06-2018, 7:36 AM
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is there where I say that OP stated this is for use O U T S I D E of California?
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Old 02-08-2018, 7:04 AM
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Old 02-08-2018, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
CA laws restricts "sniperscopes". [PC 468]
^Which makes...
Active IR scope with magnification = illegal [PC 468]
Active IR scope with no magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification and an IR illuminator = illegal [PC 468]
Passive IR scope with no magnifcation = legal
Passive IR scope with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Active IR goggles with magnification = legal
Active IR goggles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Passive IR googles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Active IR bino/mono-culars with magnification = legal
Active IR bino/mono-culars with no magnification = legal
Passive IR bino/mono-culars with magnification = legal
Passive IR bino/mono-culars with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Passive IR bino/mono-culars with no magnification = legal
Passive IR bino/mono-culars with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal

CA laws also makes any "night vision equipment" illegal to use while hunting or assisting with hunting. [FGC 2005(c)]
^Which makes all (IR/thermal) devices (scopes, binoculars, monoculars, goggles, cameras) illegal to possess/use while hunting.


Penal Code 468
Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.
This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

Fish & Game Code 2005
(a) Except as otherwise authorized by this section, it is unlawful to use an artificial light to assist in the taking of a game bird, game mammal, or game fish.
(b) It is unlawful for one or more persons to throw or cast the rays of a spotlight, headlight, or other artificial light on a highway or in a field, woodland, or forest where game mammals, fur-bearing mammals, or nongame mammals are commonly found, or upon a game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or nongame mammal, while having in his or her possession or under his or her control a firearm or weapon with which that mammal could be killed, even though the mammal is not killed, injured, shot at, or otherwise pursued.
(c) It is unlawful to use or possess night vision equipment to assist in the taking of a bird, mammal, amphibian, reptile, or fish. For purposes of this subdivision, “night vision equipment” includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(1) An infrared or similar light, used in connection with an electronic viewing device.
(2) An optical device, including, but not limited to, binoculars or a scope, that uses electrical or battery powered light amplifying circuits.
(d) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(1) Sport fishing in ocean waters, or other waters where night fishing is permitted, if an artificial light is not used on or as part of the fishing tackle.
(2) Commercial fishing.
(3) The taking of mammals governed by Article 2 (commencing with Section 4180) of Chapter 3 of Part 3 of Division 4.
(4) The use of a hand-held flashlight that is no larger and emits no more light than a two-cell, three-volt flashlight, and is not affixed to a weapon.
(5) The use of a lamp or lantern that does not cast a directional beam of light.
(6) Headlights of a motor vehicle that are operated in a usual manner and without attempt or intent to locate a game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or nongame mammal.
(7) An owner of land devoted to the agricultural industry, or the owner’s employee, while on that land.
(8) An owner of land devoted to the agricultural industry, or the owner’s employee, while on land controlled by the owner in connection with the agricultural industry.
(9) Other uses as the commission may authorize by regulation.
(e) A person shall not be arrested for violation of this section except by a peace officer.
PVS-14 falls under?
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Old 03-16-2018, 2:51 PM
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Wait...so even though I am wanting to use this for ADC work (animal damage control) outside CA i cannot buy it because of this BS?

Penal Code 468
Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.
This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

What about goggles if not a "scope"...would that be illegal as well?
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Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

The U.S. city with the most restrictive gun laws in the nation, Washington, D.C., has the highest murder rate at 24 per 100,000.
The state with the most unrestrictive gun regulations, Vermont, has the lowest murder rate at 0.48 per 100,000.
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  #27  
Old 03-19-2018, 10:12 AM
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Posts: 1,638
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I just received the strangest call from a blocked number. The gal claimed to be responding to my online inquiry about Penal Code 468 (which I had submitted a couple of days ago) and told me that this code was "...was up to my interpretation and that they could not provide legal advice." Now I was not asking for legal advice, just a clarification of the code itself. Nope. CA DOJ will not do that. So i switched gears and said, "If a thermal or night vision optic is offered for sale within the state, would that not be deemed legal to purchase?" She replied no...that "some technologies that are illegal can be sold legally in CA to law enforcement and special exemptees only." So welcome to CA guys! Not even the Dept. of Justice knows. Must be the Dept. of Injustice based on their anti-2A stance. Just bizarre. I said, "Wow...only in California can we write laws so vague that not even the DOJ can explain them." She obviously didn't appreciate that remark. I'm just shaking my head. So I said, the code refers to a scope which I interpret as a night optic mounted to a firearm. She replied, "That's your interpretation, you are free to confer with legal counsel on it." Jesus Christ! How FN lame is this state agency?
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Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

The U.S. city with the most restrictive gun laws in the nation, Washington, D.C., has the highest murder rate at 24 per 100,000.
The state with the most unrestrictive gun regulations, Vermont, has the lowest murder rate at 0.48 per 100,000.
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Old 03-21-2018, 1:18 PM
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BC9696 BC9696 is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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Spoke to ATF, not a federal code so they cannot advise me but he did laugh at the way it was worded. Said the penal codes in CA are some of the worst written in the nation.
__________________
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

The U.S. city with the most restrictive gun laws in the nation, Washington, D.C., has the highest murder rate at 24 per 100,000.
The state with the most unrestrictive gun regulations, Vermont, has the lowest murder rate at 0.48 per 100,000.
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