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  #1  
Old 08-10-2017, 4:31 PM
HawkMan HawkMan is offline
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Default Arizona

I'm in Tempe, Arizona right now and have already noticed some no gun signs while walking around. I went to the mall and there was a sign which included "no weapons."

What signs can be ignored and what can't? I'm just visiting, so I don't believe I can carry in bars, but can I ignore a sign as long as it isn't a gun in a red circle with a line through it?

Basically, where can I carry and where can I not?

Also, I'm visiting the ASU campus tomorrow, can I legally carry there or no?
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Old 08-10-2017, 4:41 PM
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No firearm signs have some force of law in AZ.

If you do not have a valid carry permit and are carrying via constitutional carry, then you can not legally carry within an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc).

If you do have a valid carry permit and the establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc) has a posted no weapons sign, then you can not legally carry within that establishment.

It is not legal to carry or possess a firearm on school/college property.
^Does not matter if you have a valid carry permit or not.
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Last edited by Quiet; 08-10-2017 at 4:47 PM..
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Old 08-10-2017, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
No firearm signs have some force of law in AZ.

If you do not have a valid carry permit and are carrying via constitutional carry, then you can not legally carry within an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc).

If you do have a valid carry permit and the establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc) has a posted no weapons sign, then you can not legally carry within that establishment.

It is not legal to carry or possess a firearm on school/college property.
^Does not matter if you have a valid carry permit or not.
My CCW instructor said that they mean nothing. The only thing is if they ask you to leave and you don't, you are trespassing. If they never ask you though... No problem. They also have to ask you first to leave before claiming trespassing.

If you do end up using it for self-defense... Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
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Old 08-10-2017, 4:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
No firearm signs have some force of law in AZ.

If you do not have a valid carry permit and are carrying via constitutional carry, then you can not legally carry within an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc).

If you do have a valid carry permit and the establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (restaurant, bar, club, etc) has a posted no weapons sign, then you can not legally carry within that establishment.

It is not legal to carry or possess a firearm on school/college property.
^Does not matter if you have a valid carry permit or not.
Some people said that the no gun signs of businesses have to follow certain requirements such as being obvious and not hidden and posted with a picture of a gun in a red circle with a red line through it. Is this true?

Obviously if I get asked to leave I will, but if there are any signs I can legally ignore then I'd love to know.
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Old 08-10-2017, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by HawkMan View Post
Some people said that the no gun signs of businesses have to follow certain requirements such as being obvious and not hidden and posted with a picture of a gun in a red circle with a red line through it. Is this true?

Obviously if I get asked to leave I will, but if there are any signs I can legally ignore then I'd love to know.
If the establishment does not sell alcohol for consumption and it is not a Gov owned/operate building, then the no weapons sign can be ignored (there is no legal enforcement of it).
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Old 08-10-2017, 4:48 PM
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If the establishment does not sell alcohol for consumption and it is not a Gov owned/operate building, then the no weapons sign can be ignored.
And what's the deal with places having to provide storage if they don't allow guns? Is this just government buildings or all businesses?
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Old 08-10-2017, 4:58 PM
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Originally Posted by monk View Post
My CCW instructor said that they mean nothing. The only thing is if they ask you to leave and you don't, you are trespassing. If they never ask you though... No problem. They also have to ask you first to leave before claiming trespassing.

If you do end up using it for self-defense... Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
AFAIK...
Under AZ laws [ARS 4-229], it's a misdemeanor to carry in an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption and has a posted no firearms sign.
But, under those same AZ laws, it is an affirmative defense to say you did not see the sign and that you are a non-resident of AZ. (AZ LEOs will give you a verbal warning)
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Old 08-10-2017, 5:01 PM
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Originally Posted by HawkMan View Post
And what's the deal with places having to provide storage if they don't allow guns? Is this just government buildings or all businesses?
AFAIK...
Only Gov owned/operated buildings are required to have firearm storage capabilities.
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Old 08-10-2017, 7:37 PM
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Originally Posted by monk View Post
My CCW instructor said that they mean nothing. The only thing is if they ask you to leave and you don't, you are trespassing. If they never ask you though.....
Your CCW is ignorant and doesn't understand Arizona law.

One must look at the Arizona criminal trespass law, ARS 13-1502 (emphasis added):
Quote:
13-1502. Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification
A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:
1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.

2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.
B. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.
Notice that it is criminal trespass in Arizona not only when one stays after being asked to leave. It is also criminal trespass to enter if one is on notice that entry is prohibited.

The question therefore becomes whether a "no guns" sign on private property is reasonable notice prohibiting entry by one carrying a gun. If an Arizona court would say, or has said, that it is, a "no guns" sign indeed has the force of law.

Certainly on the face of things it looks like a "no gun" sign could well be considered reasonable notice that entry to the premises with a gun is prohibited.

If you still contend that a "no guns" sign doesn't have the force of law in Arizona, cite an Arizona court decision so ruling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
If the establishment does not sell alcohol for consumption and it is not a Gov owned/operate building, then the no weapons sign can be ignored (there is no legal enforcement of it).
Cite some law to that effect. I've just demonstrated that you're wrong.

Note also that Handgunlaw.us agrees with my analysis.
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Old 08-11-2017, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Your CCW is ignorant and doesn't understand Arizona law.

One must look at the Arizona criminal trespass law, ARS 13-1502 (emphasis added):Notice that it is criminal trespass in Arizona not only when one stays after being asked to leave. It is also criminal trespass to enter if one is on notice that entry is prohibited.

The question therefore becomes whether a "no guns" sign on private property is reasonable notice prohibiting entry by one carrying a gun. If an Arizona court would say, or has said, that it is, a "no guns" sign indeed has the force of law.

Certainly on the face of things it looks like a "no gun" sign could well be considered reasonable notice that entry to the premises with a gun is prohibited.

If you still contend that a "no guns" sign doesn't have the force of law in Arizona, cite an Arizona court decision so ruling.

Cite some law to that effect. I've just demonstrated that you're wrong.

Note also that Handgunlaw.us agrees with my analysis.
I think you're confusing "No firearms" with "No trespassing". The simple answer is, if a business has a posted sign, and they notice that you are carrying, they have to ask you to leave before it is trespassing. If you do not leave then legally it is trespassing.
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Last edited by monk; 08-11-2017 at 9:04 PM..
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Old 08-11-2017, 9:11 PM
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Originally Posted by monk View Post
I think you're confusing "No firearms" with "No trespassing". The simple answer is, if a business has a posted sign, and they notice that you are carrying, they have to ask you to leave before it is trespassing. If you do not leave then legally it is trespassing.
No. If one is not permitted to enter on to property while carrying a firearm, and if he enters on to that property, he is trespassing. He has entered the property without permission because permission to enter onto the property is conditioned on not being in possession of a firearm.

That is how the law of trespassing works.

So if a business has posted "no guns", and if you enter in possession of a gun, you are committing criminal trespass at that point. The crime is complete once you enter the premises while in possession of a gun.
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Old 08-11-2017, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
No. If one is not permitted to enter on to property while carrying a firearm, and if he enters on to that property, he is trespassing. He has entered the property without permission because permission to enter onto the property is conditioned on not being in possession of a firearm.

That is how the law of trespassing works.

So if a business has posted "no guns", and if you enter in possession of a gun, you are committing criminal trespass at that point. The crime is complete once you enter the premises while in possession of a gun.
Is there anything in Arizona at the moment to work on these sign laws? The only thing keeping it from being the perfect gun state is the signs having force of law. I'd love the law to be you have to be asked to leave, that way you could most likely at least conceal carry.
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Old 08-11-2017, 9:16 PM
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Is there anything in Arizona at the moment to work on these sign laws? .....
I have no idea.
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Old 08-11-2017, 9:17 PM
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Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
No. If one is not permitted to enter on to property while carrying a firearm, and if he enters on to that property, he is trespassing. He has entered the property without permission because permission to enter onto the property is conditioned on not being in possession of a firearm.

That is how the law of trespassing works.

So if a business has posted "no guns", and if you enter in possession of a gun, you are committing criminal trespass at that point. The crime is complete once you enter the premises while in possession of a gun.
I'm going to set up a meeting with a criminal defense lawyer some point this month and am going to ask him this, among other, questions.
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Old 08-11-2017, 9:26 PM
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I'm going to set up a meeting with a criminal defense lawyer some point this month and am going to ask him this, among other, questions.
Good idea.
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Old 08-11-2017, 9:50 PM
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Is there anything in Arizona at the moment to work on these sign laws? .
Private property = their rules
Don't like it = don't enter
Don't enter = they get no money
They get no money = your rules
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:16 PM
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Private property = their rules
Don't like it = don't enter
Don't enter = they get no money
They get no money = your rules
People keep saying this like it's nothing, but to be honest, there are some places family and friends want to go and they don't allow guns. My mom got kinda pissed when I told her I couldn't go into a certain restaurant because I was carrying.
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Old 08-12-2017, 9:53 AM
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I do understand the logic and respect the right to choose who they serve.

Just like a restaurant with this sign:
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File Type: jpg No Service.jpg (20.7 KB, 18 views)
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