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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#82
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#83
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Look at the Shield, XD9, and P380 for what is now accepted (sharkfin)
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- Rich |
#84
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YAY, finally some good news in CA!
What a ridiculous law. Aside from the problem of reliably stamping casing and primer after thousands of rounds (or even one round at this point), WTF would we do if a firing pin needed replacing? Have to get it custom micro stamped to the exact model and serial number of the gun? Ridiculous! |
#85
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Wow!!! Good news!!! There's hope for California!
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Les Baer 1911: Premier II w/1.5" Guarantee, Blued, No FCS, Combat Rear, F/O Front, Checkered MSH & SA Professional Double Diamond Grips Springfield Armory XD-45 4" Service Model Springfield Armory XD9 4" Service Model (wifes). M&P 15 (Mine) |
#86
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We are not there yet. This is just a small step in the right direction.
Also, microstamping was just icing on the cake. The true choke on handguns in CA is still LCI/mag disconnect. This means no Gen 4 Glock, XDm, HK, FNH, etc. We might just get a few more carefully selected Sigs and maybe an M&P or two and even that will take years. That's about it.
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#87
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Before everybody gets too excited, this is a "technical victory" where Chuck Michel and his guys are winning against the state and developing the framework for the future.
We have ammo bills and all sorts of other issues that are piling up at the moment. The most important new development is going to be Scalia's replacement at the federal level and the health of Bader-Ginsburg...
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#89
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There's no hope, don't delude yourself.
Assume for now that we go back to the trial court, and NSSF produces sufficient evidence of impossibility, the trial is actually held, and NSSF wins on the merits. What do you think our new AG is going to do? Say "OK, you won, we lost", roll over, and show his belly? The appeals process will drag out for years to come, with each hearing another bite at the apple for the AG. Time and time again these things get hung up in the courts, and this won't be any different. The courts are no "vindicator" of anything in this state. Had the 5th District ruled differently, it would have thrown decades of precedent into doubt, creating an untenable situation for non-firearms cases. The subtext, to the AG, was "Go back and find a better set of arguments so we can rule in your favor next time this is kicked up the ladder, m'kay?"
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More regimes have been brought, piecemeal, to their knees by what was once called “Irish Democracy”—the silent, dogged resistance, withdrawal, and truculence of millions of ordinary people—than by revolutionary vanguards or rioting mobs. |
#90
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#91
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It wasn't meant to undermine their effort or diminish the value of the victory. It was meant to let people know that we are not going to see any immediate changes and that we still have a long road ahead of us.
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#92
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I'm 60. Any chance I'll be able to buy a sig 938 in the state (new) before I die?
What time frame would one put on a new trial, a victory, an appeal, another ruling, and a change to the roster? I'm thinking 6 years for justice. Justice delayed is justice denied. Still...a huge step in the right direction. |
#93
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How long before the state requires all ammo to have a serial number and when we buy it, we will have to dros it just like firearms.. Then it will be illegal to police our brass, reload, etc.
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I love California, but I am afraid of its government. Those who choose safety over freedom are neither safe or free! "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." (Tacitus, Roman historian 55-117 A.D.) “It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.” —- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson |
#94
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didnt they try something like this in Illinois ?
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#95
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Dude, they've got the inventor of micro stamping claiming that it is not only possible, but that it has been tested and worked 100% of the time. How is denying that the technology exists a good argument? GLOCK's argument in their filing on the other hand is solid. What are the chances that the roster gets reversed?
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#96
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lawj11, please show us where the inventor said this and has working examples that stamp on two places on the case as required by CA law.
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#97
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First—and most tellingly—Appellants and their amici fail to even acknowledge, let alone rebut, the sworn declaration of the inventor of microstamping technology, Todd Lizotte, submitted to the district court in this action. Mr. Lizotte’s declaration makes clear that microstamping is more than theoretically possible—it has been successfully developed and tested. Mr. Lizotte testified that: “[O]ver the years I have publicly demonstrated microstamping technology seven times, using firearms outfitted with firing pin and/or breech face elements.” (1SER:0114.) “In May of 2007, for instance, I conducted a stress test in which I fired over 2,500 rounds from a Smith and Wesson .40 caliber semiautomatic handgun that had been outfitted with microstamping technology. The test employed fully optimized firing pins that were designed to work with that specific model of firearm, and used five different brands of ammunition. Using optical microscopy and scanning electron microscopy techniques, all eight microstamped digits from the firing pin were legible 97% of the time. Additionally, -10- Case: 15-15449, 09/28/2015, ID: 9699195, DktEntry: 33, Page 16 of 28 breech face markings transferred to cartridge casings were legible 96% of the time. Between firing pin and breech face markings, all eight microstamped digits were identifiable in all cases.” (1SER:0119-120.) “Although the firing pin and breech face are viable and effective locations for microstamping, various other surfaces—including the firing pin port, ejector, extractor, and chamber wall can be used.” (1SER:0118.) Mr. Lizotte thus goes on to conclude: “Based on my experience, expertise, and my own testing results as the inventor of microstamping, compliance with microstamping requirements is technologically possible. Thus, manufacturers could meet the microstamping requirement on currently unrostered weapons, allowing such weapons to be rostered.” (1SER:0115.) Go to page 10: http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...t-Appellee.pdf |
#98
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Just because something exists in an experimental stages or just because someone ran a set of lab tests in no way implies that the technology is readily available or even possible to implement in real life. How many millions of miles have the driverless cars driven "successfully" per testimony of the inventor? What would it look like if the legislators today mandated that no car can have front seats - we all have to be passengers? That's the sort of "technology exists" that we are talking about. There isn't a single commercial microstamping firearm available on the market today. This is a few less than the so-called "smart guns" which worked "real good" (sic) in labs, yet they couldn't make one beyond .22 LR and even that one didn't work well in practice. When it comes to guns we actually have a very simple test for "technology is useful and it works" - military and police. Any useful and working technology can be forced on the police. It would be the proof we are looking for here.
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#99
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Kindly stay on the thread topic, which is 'microstamping', not 'other members'.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#100
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"Microstamping is both novel and essentially theoretical because no pistols that are commercially available in the United States currently incorporate it." So, apparently they doubt the inventor's claims that microstamping works too. Finally, if I knew the chances of whether the Roster will get reversed, I'd be in a difference line of work. |
#101
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Someone help me with this... Microstamping I assume was thought up as a way to track rounds to a perpetrator of a crime. What would stop said perpetrator from taking one swipe of a file across the firing pin to destroy the stamp, a harshly worded law with severe penalties? The only perpetrators you'll catch with this technology might be a few guys who went shooting in the woods and left their brass on the ground. Bam! Felony Littering.
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#102
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A glimmer of hope, but how many years will it take to reverse a near impossible/un-workable requirement?
Imagine...well yes gay marriage is legal but you have to have your ceremony on the moon. Technically it's possible. Beating the dead horse. I know. |
#103
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It's two places marked on the case.
It's two places marked on the case. It's two places marked on the case. Hate to be repetitive, but it's two places marked on the case. The firing pin cannot be used to make the stamp because the primer is not the case. Then there is the issue of primer swipe upon ejection, ruining the stamp mark. The breech face cannot be used to mark the case because of the ammo maker's stampings are already on the case head, leaving little or no room for another stamp....or requiring that each round fired be aligned so a blank area on the case head would be hit by the stamp. Failure to align your ammo would be a crime as one stamp would be missing. Not practical in the real world. The ejector can not be used to stamp as the mark would be on the case head. The extractor does not have the power to stamp in the extractor groove. Given different extractor grove shapes, consistent stamping is not possible. Primer swipe and limited case head area: Ca law requires two legible stampings every time. With primer and case head eliminated, the case sides must be marked. This means some sort of stamping when the case is in the chamber. This is what nobody can figure out how to do. lawj11, again, show me where the inventor has a working example that stamps the case in two places.
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#104
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Please remember that before you try to apply logic to CA gun laws - they're not about guns.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#105
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#106
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Or one of the millions of handguns/rifles already in the state that don't (never will) have microstamping. Its not about crime... it's about stopping sales of firearms in the PRK.
Through the roster they will eventually stop sales of all new semi-auto handguns (and revolvers in the future). The AW laws are the start of stopping all sales of new semi-auto rifles and shotguns. There will be more...your pump shotguns and sniper rifles will be next. There is no doubt that CA is the progressive model for how some would like to see things happen.
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#107
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and here i thought as seen on tv that they already can know what gun fired said round just by looking at a spent case.
and every bullet proved the barrel it came out of. no need for a new tech way. .
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big gun's...i love big gun's |
#108
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But to explore further, is that a viable position, that the primer is not for purposes of the requirement not considered "the case"? I'd like to think you're right, but ... |
#109
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Theoretically, words have meanings.
Currently a round of center fire ammunition that would be used in a semiauto pistol consists of four parts: a case, a primer, a propellant and a bullet. The laws and regulations are to be written so those affected can understand them. If I'm at the reloading bench, and I say to you "Hand me some cases", you're not going to hand me powder, bullets or primers...you will hand me cases.
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#110
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I'd be handing you a box of Hangar 24
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- Rich |
#111
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^
Note that UC Davis tried to make this work using the firing pin as a stamp. It did not work out... with stamping on brass being much more difficult than stamping on soft primer metal. https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/gun-mic...s-more-testing
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#112
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Settle down, folks. The new "ghost gun" regulations probably don't do what you think they do. |
#113
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Both easily bypassed on most guns.
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- Rich |
#114
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Not to mention the obvious safety hazard that they cause. It completely gets rid of the perhaps the most important firearms safety rule of them all, that "all firearms are always loaded", and replaces it with "No red flag, so it must not be loaded". Which is especially hazardous for those most susceptible to that mistake - new gun owners, who assume all guns must have a LCI, because the guy at the gun store told them that all pistols in CA have one. When they handle one that doesn't, they could very well assume it's empty when it is in fact loaded.
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Settle down, folks. The new "ghost gun" regulations probably don't do what you think they do. Last edited by CandG; 01-27-2017 at 7:23 PM.. |
#115
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It's like the push to vehicles with electronics that are susceptible to attack by EMP, or as simple and non-destructive as a remote shutdown by Onstar-like technology, self-driving cars, connected vehicles, etc... There is ALWAYS going to be "legacy" equipment out there. In the case of guns, it will always make up the majority of what is "in the wild", unlike vehicles which wear out and are replaced and scrapped regularly.
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- Rich |
#116
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At least, that's how it seems to me.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#117
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#118
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Just because there was a patent does not mean it was actually possible. If it were possible someone would be selling it in this large market. Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk |
#119
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The way the law was written, the microstamping requirement would only go into effect when the AG (cameltoe harris) signed off that it was usable, real technology that was unrestrained by patent protections. None of those things were true for a couple years, so the law didn't take effect. Then the patent finally expired, and miss cameltoe took it upon herself to lie and announce that microstamping is alive and well, and the law can go into effect.
I wasn't around at the time so I don't remember the exact details, but I thought a gun group (maybe calguns?) bought the patent rights from the original owner to make sure it remained patented (and thus unusable). I'm not sure what happened with that, but clearly we don't have the patent rights anymore, for some reason. Or maybe someone just found another method that didn't infringe on the patent. Hopefully someone else remembers how that all played out.
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Settle down, folks. The new "ghost gun" regulations probably don't do what you think they do. Last edited by CandG; 01-27-2017 at 10:49 PM.. |
#120
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You could have a million different stamps on a cartridge and it still wouldn't defeat the purpose of the law.
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