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  #1  
Old 12-25-2017, 10:55 AM
justMike justMike is offline
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Default Has Jesus's material message been misinterpreted?

Leaving the salvation of our souls to another discussion, this fellow believes so Jesus message had a more material aspect also. :

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017...-not-sins.html
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  #2  
Old 12-25-2017, 11:07 AM
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If his Jesus can get financial debts forgiven, there'd be a lot more worshippers of him.

He starts with a dictionary approach to interpretation (take a word, ignore the context, and pick the meaning you want it to be), then puts on his debt-colored glasses and interprets the whole Bible from his debt-forgiveness perspective. Just a little biased.

Jesus Christ paid my real debt.
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:51 PM
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There's so much wrong with that article I don't know where to begin
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:59 PM
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It is very common for people to confuse spiritual matters with physical matters. It creates oh so many problems.
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Old 12-26-2017, 12:16 AM
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I can’t even finish the dumb piece. It's so biblically inacurrate and full of error, that it’s not an article even worthy of debate.
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Old 12-26-2017, 7:29 AM
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I feel like I was saved from wasting my time. Thanks for treading the water guys
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Old 12-26-2017, 9:02 AM
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So much fail in that article. Really? Jesus was a socialist? Amazing how they contort Christ message to fit their own.
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Old 12-30-2017, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by WASR10 View Post
It is very common for people to confuse spiritual matters with physical matters. It creates oh so many problems.
I suppose yes. If only we were disembodied spirit beings "physical matters" would not be relevant and make for those 'so many problems'. The fact is we must deal with physical existence.
Interesting how the only facts cared about are the 'facts' presented in the Bible. Much of the Bible seems to be confirmed by academic and archeological investigations, but to reflexively decide that
it is the complete factual picture is just y'alls exercising of 'faith'. More went on in those times than was recorded in the Bible, but you don't care about much of any of that unless it confirms your preexisting beliefs.
Would the spiritual message of Jesus be changed if he were in fact a proponent of (as we know it today) Socialism? Your collective (apparently) conservative cultural biases seem to reflexively judge collective living
as somehow un-compatible with Christ's message.

As it turns out, the economic scene of thr Roman Empire at the time of Christ was very surprisingly much like our own.
(If you care for an overview, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_economy )
So yes, being in / having large debts was a likely on the minds of people then.

Jesus is / was easily seen as a radical progressive in those days. Can be seen as one now except for the aforementioned co-opting / corrupting of his message to conveniently de-emphasis on material / 'physical matters'.
This piece says it better than I could, challenge to your biases and comprehension skills and check it out. Or, continue to let others decide how you are supposed to think, its so much easier.

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/chr....google.com%2F
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  #9  
Old 12-30-2017, 2:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justMike View Post
I suppose yes. If only we were disembodied spirit beings "physical matters" would not be relevant and make for those 'so many problems'. The fact is we must deal with physical existence.
Interesting how the only facts cared about are the 'facts' presented in the Bible. Much of the Bible seems to be confirmed by academic and archeological investigations, but to reflexively decide that
it is the complete factual picture is just y'alls exercising of 'faith'. More went on in those times than was recorded in the Bible, but you don't care about much of any of that unless it confirms your preexisting beliefs.
Would the spiritual message of Jesus be changed if he were in fact a proponent of (as we know it today) Socialism? Your collective (apparently) conservative cultural biases seem to reflexively judge collective living
as somehow un-compatible with Christ's message.

As it turns out, the economic scene of thr Roman Empire at the time of Christ was very surprisingly much like our own.
(If you care for an overview, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_economy )
So yes, being in / having large debts was a likely on the minds of people then.

Jesus is / was easily seen as a radical progressive in those days. Can be seen as one now except for the aforementioned co-opting / corrupting of his message to conveniently de-emphasis on material / 'physical matters'.
This piece says it better than I could, challenge to your biases and comprehension skills and check it out. Or, continue to let others decide how you are supposed to think, its so much easier.

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/chr....google.com%2F
You assume way too much about me and my comment. It seems you have an axe to grind with someone.

My comment does not discount the real social, political, and economical climate of the New Testament period.

But it is clear and evident that Jesus concerned himself with matters of the soul and of the heart, not so much matters of the body and the wallet. He was not a social justice warrior, no matter how much some people today would hope. Please consider the following passages:

“My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” - John 18:36

“For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body,what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? And who of you by being worried can add an hour to his life? And why are you worried about clothing?

Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, not much more you? You of little faith!

Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."
- Matthew 6:25-33
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I have never posted anything sig worthy.
Mark 16:16

Last edited by WASR10; 12-30-2017 at 2:22 PM..
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  #10  
Old 12-30-2017, 6:11 PM
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Wasr10,
While I used your comment as a point to start from, the 'your' pronoun was used in reference to all the commenters in this thread. If the shoe doesn't fit no need to wear it.

Still no one addresses the underlined question. If Jesus had been a Socialist, would it have made any difference? Adherents seem to want it both ways. If I say Jesus was not about here, but the hereafter, this gets an argument otherwise. But by Jesus's own words you quote, it could be read that even if your life is misery and pain, as long as you trust in Jesus all will be well with your spirit (possibly not mattering if your life of misery led you into sin) as long as Jesus is in your last thoughts as you pass this mortal coil. Is that Matthew 6:25-33 part of the currently fashionable Prosperity preaching? Seemed to work that way for the Calvanists too. So many wars and shedding of blood, burning of heretics etc. took place in the name of differing Christian denominations in the 16th century Reformation. Physical matters seemed to be at the forefront of all that, No? Of course we are all better than that now, right?
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  #11  
Old 12-31-2017, 12:20 AM
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In Judaism it was tradition to forgive debts after 7 years. The practice was called Shemittah.
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Old 12-31-2017, 6:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan Block View Post
In Judaism it was tradition to forgive debts after 7 years. The practice was called Shemittah.
Not to mention the Jubilee Year. Debts forgiven, slaves freed, and land returned to original owners.
There are a couple of points I agree with in the article, but on the whole, I am not sure about it.
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Old 01-02-2018, 4:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justMike View Post
Wasr10,
While I used your comment as a point to start from, the 'your' pronoun was used in reference to all the commenters in this thread. If the shoe doesn't fit no need to wear it.

Still no one addresses the underlined question. If Jesus had been a Socialist, would it have made any difference? Adherents seem to want it both ways. If I say Jesus was not about here, but the hereafter, this gets an argument otherwise. But by Jesus's own words you quote, it could be read that even if your life is misery and pain, as long as you trust in Jesus all will be well with your spirit (possibly not mattering if your life of misery led you into sin) as long as Jesus is in your last thoughts as you pass this mortal coil. Is that Matthew 6:25-33 part of the currently fashionable Prosperity preaching? Seemed to work that way for the Calvanists too. So many wars and shedding of blood, burning of heretics etc. took place in the name of differing Christian denominations in the 16th century Reformation. Physical matters seemed to be at the forefront of all that, No? Of course we are all better than that now, right?
You have to forgive me. My post was not quoted so I didn't receive a message that I was responded to. Plus, it being a holiday weekend, I did not check up on threads with which I had participated.

No, I don’t agree. “As long as your last thoughts are on Jesus” is not a Biblical concept. That certainly is not what Matthew 6 teaches. Calvinists, that is a different story all together. Wars, fighting, blood-shed... these are not part of the Christian religion. One only has to read what the Christian church is, from the New Testament, to know this. But, people throughout history have shed blood in the name of a religion they did not represent, or understood. Very true. That does not change what the religion is.
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Old 01-02-2018, 6:12 PM
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Quote:
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Still no one addresses the underlined question. If Jesus had been a Socialist, would it have made any difference?
Since we're speaking hypothetically, I have a question for you: what if there were no hypothetical questions?
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Old 01-02-2018, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by justMike View Post
Wasr10,
While I used your comment as a point to start from, the 'your' pronoun was used in reference to all the commenters in this thread. If the shoe doesn't fit no need to wear it.

Still no one addresses the underlined question. If Jesus had been a Socialist, would it have made any difference? Adherents seem to want it both ways. If I say Jesus was not about here, but the hereafter, this gets an argument otherwise. But by Jesus's own words you quote, it could be read that even if your life is misery and pain, as long as you trust in Jesus all will be well with your spirit (possibly not mattering if your life of misery led you into sin) as long as Jesus is in your last thoughts as you pass this mortal coil. Is that Matthew 6:25-33 part of the currently fashionable Prosperity preaching? Seemed to work that way for the Calvanists too. So many wars and shedding of blood, burning of heretics etc. took place in the name of differing Christian denominations in the 16th century Reformation. Physical matters seemed to be at the forefront of all that, No? Of course we are all better than that now, right?
remember people used to pay for absolution

i would prefer to think of the idea of absolution as a ruse to fool sinners into repenting and reforming.

why? child molesters and rapists and murderers should burn in hell, if there is such a thing, no matter what pleas they make as they see the lights dimming.
of course, if there is a god, i don't think he's be fooled by them trying to sneak into heaven anyway.

Last edited by theLBC; 01-02-2018 at 6:24 PM..
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Old 01-02-2018, 9:52 PM
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I feel like I was saved from wasting my time. Thanks for treading the water guys
+1 yep
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Old 01-03-2018, 11:01 PM
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Since we're speaking hypothetically, I have a question for you: what if there were no hypothetical questions?
In that case, knowledge would be stagnant. That would be fine for those who find all they need between the covers of the Bible. Fortunately, in my opinion, that is not most people.
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Old 01-04-2018, 6:51 PM
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In that case, knowledge would be stagnant. That would be fine for those who find all they need between the covers of the Bible. Fortunately, in my opinion, that is not most people.
I guess it depends on what they are looking for.
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I have never posted anything sig worthy.
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Old 01-12-2018, 4:41 PM
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Matthew 6:9-13King James Version (KJV)

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
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Old 01-12-2018, 4:54 PM
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There is no 2nd guessing the word. It is what it is...
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