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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #401  
Old 07-28-2014, 5:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dantedamean View Post
So does this mean they don't even need a concealed weapon permit to carry? As long as the guns are registered with the state they are good to go?
That's my understanding from reading the WaPo article. Because their existing ban was struck down, DC went from being the most restrictive to among the least restrictive overnight.

I'm Googling news articles, but I don't see any links to actual statements by DC police.

District Line Daily: Judge Overturns Key Provision of D.C. Gun Laws

Quote:
The District's ban on carrying handguns in public places is unconstitutional, according to a federal judge's ruling this weekend. The D.C. government will appeal the ruling, but in the meantime, D.C. police have been ordered to not arrest any D.C. resident who is carrying a registered handgun in a public place. Non-D.C. residents can carry a handgun in public in D.C. provided they are following the laws of their home state.
The other article saying that the police are not going to arrest any non-felon outsiders who carry seems more realistic.
  #402  
Old 07-28-2014, 5:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CASEC View Post
No registration is needed. You just can't be a prohibited person. A circumstance lost on most here in Kalifornia is that there is no firearm registration in the free parts of the nation.
DC requires handgun registration and a permit to purchase.
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  #403  
Old 07-28-2014, 5:54 AM
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They aren't going to allow their criminal population to freely carry. Regular residents still have to jump through the hoops to purchase. Hopefully Open Carry Texas is not ramping-up for another idiotic display. Otherwise, this might go down with minimal drama.
  #404  
Old 07-28-2014, 6:21 AM
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Ill just drop this off here. Voting has consequences.

"Senior District Court Judge Frederick J. Scullin Jr., a former Army colonel appointed to the court by President George H.W. Bush, ruled that the right to a weapon extended outside the home both for residents and visitors to Washington"
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  #405  
Old 07-28-2014, 6:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Drivedabizness View Post
DC requires handgun registration and a permit to purchase.

I understand that. My comment was in response to a query regarding non-residents. It would be more accurate to say many states don't require firearms registration.
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  #406  
Old 07-28-2014, 6:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lasbrg View Post
That's my understanding from reading the WaPo article. Because their existing ban was struck down, DC went from being the most restrictive to among the least restrictive overnight.

I'm Googling news articles, but I don't see any links to actual statements by DC police.

District Line Daily: Judge Overturns Key Provision of D.C. Gun Laws



The other article saying that the police are not going to arrest any non-felon outsiders who carry seems more realistic.

3 states don't require permits for ccw. Several others don't require permits for open carry. I think an on the fly decision to give the simple instruction
of no felony = no arrest for non-residents was simpler than telling officers to determine a subjects state of residence and if they were in compliance with the licensing structure in effect in that state.
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  #407  
Old 07-28-2014, 6:42 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Or DC doesn't want to be responsible for delivering this ruling to the entire country. Escalating it would result in this.

They may sit on this pending Peruta. If Peruta goes down, they have a better fight to overturn yesterday's opinion. Since it was heavily persuasive in the opinion. What a tangled web we weave.
Makes you wonder if CA9 Peruta Panel has been waiting on Palmer before they rule on the AG's request.
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  #408  
Old 07-28-2014, 6:50 AM
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CA9 doesn't march to anybody's tune but their own......most overturned federal appellate court in history.....
  #409  
Old 07-28-2014, 7:02 AM
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David Kopel has an analysis of the decision up on Volokh's WaPo page.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/v...a-palmer-v-dc/
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  #410  
Old 07-28-2014, 7:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CASEC View Post
3 states don't require permits for ccw. Several others don't require permits for open carry. I think an on the fly decision to give the simple instruction of no felony = no arrest for non-residents was simpler than telling officers to determine a subjects state of residence and if they were in compliance with the licensing structure in effect in that state.
Agreed.
  #411  
Old 07-28-2014, 7:29 AM
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Originally Posted by sholling View Post
David Kopel has an analysis of the decision up on Volokh's WaPo page.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/v...a-palmer-v-dc/
Good write-up. I think he accurately summarizes the current (lack of) knowledge about the current rules of carry in DC. Probably the authorities dread putting up a notice acknowledging the breadth of the Palmer ruling.

Quote:
As of 1:30 a.m. ET on Monday morning, I was not able to find a copy of Chief Lanier’s order on the websites of the D.C. Police, D.C. Attorney General, or city government. It would be helpful for non-residents who seek to comply with the D.C. government’s interpretation of the current situation if the order were speedily made available to the public.
Exactly. Google-fu doesn't help if there is nothing to Google.

Quote:
Can a person carry a long gun for self-defense in public in D.C.? I think not. The entire Palmer opinion is about the carrying of handguns, and defensive carry of handguns (not guns in general) was the issue that the plaintiffs argued.
Here I think he is wrong. Still, it's funny how handguns went from being the "bad" guns to the "good" guns overnight.

Last edited by lasbrg; 07-28-2014 at 7:33 AM..
  #412  
Old 07-28-2014, 7:52 AM
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From the DC Chief via Alan Gura.

http://alangura.com/wp-content/uploa.../07-137-14.pdf
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  #413  
Old 07-28-2014, 8:07 AM
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So cool. Thanks putput!
  #414  
Old 07-28-2014, 8:12 AM
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... Still, it's funny how handguns went from being the "bad" guns to the "good" guns overnight.
Well, perhaps not all "bad" guns are now "good". I didn't know they were using CA's Roster as the basis for theirs.

Quote:
Firearms Eligible for Registration
To protect residents from unsafe handguns that are more prone to accidental discharge, lack safety devices, and may be prone to firing when dropped, the Council of the District of Columbia identified the California Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale (also known as the California Roster of Handguns Determined Not to be Unsafe) as a source list for safer handguns. Handguns on the roster have passed firing, safety, and drop tests and are certified for sale in California by the California Department of Justice. The Chief of Police is authorized to periodically revise, by rule, the roster of handguns permissible for sale.

The regulations will establish a District Roster of Handguns Not Determined to be Unsafe that will include the California list and handguns that are on the safe gun rosters of Maryland and Massachusetts. These regulations will allow for handguns with superficial differences from handguns on the roster – such as color or grip material – to be registered. The regulations will also allow for handguns that are removed from the California list for administrative reasons to remain on the District list.

Maryland Handgun Roster
Massachusetts Firearm Roster
Firearms Eligible for Registration [PDF]
http://mpdc.dc.gov/node/177912
  #415  
Old 07-28-2014, 8:14 AM
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So the rule for now in DC is that if you can legally own the weapon, you can legally carry it, openly or concealed. Separate existing restrictions on firearms in specific places are, presumably, still in effect.
  #416  
Old 07-28-2014, 8:15 AM
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Originally Posted by p7m8jg View Post
CA9 doesn't march to anybody's tune but their own......most overturned federal appellate court in history.....
However, the Peruta panel is playing a game of chess and they are effectively on our side. Who knows if CA judges pay much attention to the cases workng their way through U.S. Courts but Palmer is interesting enough that the Peruta panel may have factored this decision into their timeline. I know Im probably fantasizing but without any current movement in Peruta, it makes you wonder why they havent annonced their decision on the AG's motion to intervene.
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  #417  
Old 07-28-2014, 8:23 AM
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Splendid.
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  #418  
Old 07-28-2014, 8:33 AM
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Originally Posted by putput View Post
"5. NOT FOR THE PRESS"
  #419  
Old 07-28-2014, 8:39 AM
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Progress, I suppose. I seem unreasonably perturbed it took this long and no end in sight. I would like to hope this could help resolve the LA County shenanigans sooner than later, but unfortunately am pessimistic.

DC doesn't even have the 10th Amendment to make this infringement palpable.
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Last edited by Uxi; 07-28-2014 at 8:41 AM..
  #420  
Old 07-28-2014, 8:56 AM
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It seems crappy that a non-resident has to follow the laws of their home state while outside their state. So someone visiting DC from Arizona has more of a right to carry a gun than someone from california even though they're in the same place. That's like saying some people are more equal than others.
  #421  
Old 07-28-2014, 9:04 AM
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Once the request for stay is filed, do court rules require the judge to issue a ruling on that within a certain timeframe? Or could the judge just sit on it for, say, 5 years?
  #422  
Old 07-28-2014, 9:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Dantedamean View Post
It seems crappy that a non-resident has to follow the laws of their home state while outside their state. So someone visiting DC from Arizona has more of a right to carry a gun than someone from california even though they're in the same place. That's like saying some people are more equal than others.
It's all temporary, but it's still fun to speculate about. The scenario #1 was for someone not allowed to possess in DC (arrest). Scenario #2 was Vermont (let go) and #3 was illegal to possess by Federal law (arrest). So what about not allowed to possess according to home state law? If they arrest, what would be the charge?
  #423  
Old 07-28-2014, 9:37 AM
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Thumbs up

Wow a lot of things can change over a weekend after camping in the woods.
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Old 07-28-2014, 9:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantedamean View Post
It seems crappy that a non-resident has to follow the laws of their home state while outside their state. So someone visiting DC from Arizona has more of a right to carry a gun than someone from california even though they're in the same place. That's like saying some people are more equal than others.
The scenarios are just that, scenarios.

The real "meat" is that they are not going to enforce the section banning carry. This means that even if you are from California, NJ, NYC, Maryland or anywhere where you don't have a permit from, you can still carry in DC anyway as long as you're not a prohibited person. DC residents do have to register their guns, and the 10 round limit still applies to everyone.

It doesn't matter what your home state allows. Why should it? Why would it? Nothing in the decision says anything about that.
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Old 07-28-2014, 9:42 AM
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So the rule for now in DC is that if you can legally own the weapon, you can legally carry it, openly or concealed. Separate existing restrictions on firearms in specific places are, presumably, still in effect.
Absolutely.

No firearms in federal buildings, for example. But you ARE allowed to carry in national parks (thanks to the CARD act).

But they have none of the silly restrictions (yet) that other states have, such as no guns in bars etc.
  #426  
Old 07-28-2014, 9:45 AM
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Who knows if CA judges pay much attention to the cases workng their way through U.S. Courts but Palmer is interesting enough that the Peruta panel may have factored this decision into their timeline.
Heh, we waited *years* for Palmer decision and Gura had to prod the court several times to get a decision.

If Peruta panel indeed waited a month or two to "time it" to Palmer they would be the most clairvoyant panel in the history of the universe.
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Old 07-28-2014, 9:47 AM
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Makes you wonder if CA9 Peruta Panel has been waiting on Palmer before they rule on the AG's request.
A modified version of this assumption is more likely.

Peruta panel is in no hurry to issue a ruling since their decision is being incorporated into jurisprudence left and right.
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Old 07-28-2014, 9:59 AM
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I was quoting Oddball in Kelly's Heroes. Why don't you chill and just enjoy the victory?
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  #429  
Old 07-28-2014, 10:00 AM
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Heh, we waited *years* for Palmer decision and Gura had to prod the court several times to get a decision.

If Peruta panel indeed waited a month or two to "time it" to Palmer they would be the most clairvoyant panel in the history of the universe.
Unless the judges talked to each other.
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  #430  
Old 07-28-2014, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Dantedamean View Post
It seems crappy that a non-resident has to follow the laws of their home state while outside their state. So someone visiting DC from Arizona has more of a right to carry a gun than someone from california even though they're in the same place. That's like saying some people are more equal than others.
Which begs the question - What if a Californian has an Arizona CCW? Can he use the Arizona level of 'scrutiny' if you will?
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  #431  
Old 07-28-2014, 10:56 AM
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Unless the judges talked to each other.
Now that's going into conspiracy theory territory...
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:58 AM
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3 states don't require permits for ccw. Several others don't require permits for open carry. .
Which brings up another point....
How is it that the States recognize each other's driver's licences, marital status, and so much more, but somehow get away with not recognizing CCW's.

Would not the Comity Clause (which refers to Article IV, § 2, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution (also known as the Privileges and Immunities Clause), which ensures that “The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.” be aversly impacted by refusal to recognize another states ccw?

Has our side ever really fought for CCW reciprocity in a major way? has anyone challenged the failure to recognize via the comity clause?
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:58 AM
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Which begs the question - What if a Californian has an Arizona CCW?
DC LEO: "Have a nice day."
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CG of MP View Post
Which begs the question - What if a Californian has an Arizona CCW? Can he use the Arizona level of 'scrutiny' if you will?
Edit: I quoted the wrong person lol.

To answer the post I actually quoted, from what everyone has been saying your home state is what matters. So if you're from california but you have a CCW in Arizona it's still a no go. Which I find I runic because that is enforcing a law that they ruled unconstitutional, a little counter intuitive. I have a feeling there's more to that than we're having repeated to us.



If I'm understanding it correctly then you will be charged with illegally carrying a concealed weapon in DC, because some citizens are more equal than others. It's very counter to their ruling, I find it odd.

Last edited by Dantedamean; 07-28-2014 at 3:08 PM..
  #435  
Old 07-28-2014, 11:19 AM
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An update from the Alan Gura blog: http://alangura.com/

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Your D.C. Handgun Carry Permit — UPDATED
Posted on July 28, 2014 by alangura

Want to know what the District of Columbia’s Metropolitan Police Department is being told about Palmer? A confidential informant has supplied the memo.

Two caveats:

1. If you have any questions about how MPD interprets this memo, please direct those to MPD. It’s not my memo.

2. The District has indicated that they will seek a stay of the decision. If a stay were to be granted, this policy would doubtless change, and I can’t guarantee that I’ll be able to update this blog post in real time. So be careful out there.

UPDATED:

I have a better understanding of what the city will now do.

The city will probably file an appeal — that’s within their right.

The city would ask for a stay pending the resolution of the appeal — they can ask for that, and we would oppose that.

The city would ask, in the alternative, for a shorter, closed-ended stay of the Palmer decision to allow the city council time to enact remedial legislation. In Moore, the state of Illinois received first 180 days, then over our strenuous objections, another 30 days on top of that. We would not agree to anything in that neighborhood here, but we would not oppose a shorter stay that would give the city council some reasonable window in which to make a decision, without frustrating the progress of the appeal. The decision as to whether to grant any stays and if so for how long, of course, belongs to the courts.

I’d expect the city to file something later this afternoon.
  #436  
Old 07-28-2014, 11:36 AM
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It seems a little odd that Gura would show his hand publicly like this. But then, thinking conspiratorially, this statement must surely put doubts in the minds of any outside group that had been inclined to pile into vans and head out to the mall to celebrate.
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ryan_j View Post
Absolutely.

No firearms in federal buildings, for example. But you ARE allowed to carry in national parks (thanks to the CARD act).

But they have none of the silly restrictions (yet) that other states have, such as no guns in bars etc.
Be careful. The federal Gun Free School Zone Act still applies. Without a "license" from the state in which the school zone is located you can still be pinched for carrying near a school. Since non-residents can not get a "license" issued by DC and there is probably no place in DC that is not within 1000' of a school, there is no way out of that one. So, although the DC police are barred from arresting you simply for carrying (as of now), they can still call Holder and he will prosecute you for violating the federal GFSZ.
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Now that's going into conspiracy theory territory...
LOL it could happen!
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"It wasn't a failure of laws," said Amanda Wilcox, who along with her husband, Nick, lobbies for the California chapter of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "I just don't see how our gun laws could have stopped something like that."
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Yep, this is one aspect of the ruling that seems to be getting little attention. The DC court ruled that you can't deny someone a permit just because they don't live there.

This is big.
Indeed it is. Do we think this could have some bearing on CCW reciprocity?
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They teach you secret stuff I can't mention on line.
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:54 AM
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Which brings up another point....
How is it that the States recognize each other's driver's licences, marital status, and so much more, but somehow get away with not recognizing CCW's.
I think the more confusing aspects are that there are states such as UT where non-resident CCWs are issued. Is there such a thing called non-resident drivers licenses (don't have a residential address in a certain state but still can apply for a drivers license in that state)? What if you're a resident of CA, hold a non-resident CCW from UT, which you can't use in CA but is reciprocally ok in 31 states, hold in DC?
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