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  #81  
Old 09-22-2017, 3:07 PM
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Various images of a bunch of different bird and buck shot into ballistic gel:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100105...c.php?t=109958

Something to keep in mind: no "skin" on the blocks, nor any thick or leather jackets, nor are the blocks "fat"...

-- Michael
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  #82  
Old 09-22-2017, 3:33 PM
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Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
Various images of a bunch of different bird and buck shot into ballistic gel:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100105...c.php?t=109958

Something to keep in mind: no "skin" on the blocks, nor any thick or leather jackets, nor are the blocks "fat"...

-- Michael
No ribcage, either. But still, some data is better than no data - thanks for posting that!
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  #83  
Old 09-22-2017, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I once saw a guy kill three elk in a bar... with a pencil. With a fricking pencil!!
I watched a guy kill a guy with a carrot!

Nobody needs guns, just run to your nearest produce aisle.

Might've been movie magic, but a decently sharp carrot seems plausible enough.


I have personally shot a 4x4 wood signpost with #4 shot out of a full choke barrel at about 30 feet and it broke the post in half. I wouldn't volunteer to get shot by that.

But the FBI and ammo manufacturers have put a lot of time and research into their projectiles, I'd trust some tried and true buckshot or dedicated defense rounds. There's really no reason to look at anything else. Thinking #8 is safe for drywall walls is just dumb, at any normal indoor house/apartment distances under 40' youre talking about a 6'' spread that will go straight through drywall
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  #84  
Old 09-22-2017, 8:08 PM
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I think this thread was suppose to be a "Discussion", and some of you are trying to turn it into a Life Experience Pissing Contest. All anyone can do is take the information that's available(wherever it comes from)and pick something that will shoot reliably from your gun. This means buying and shooting, which is what we all want to do Right!!!!. I can only speak for myself here, but the idea of shooting someone is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down on the list of things I want to do before I die. Having been an Aircraft Mechanic during my four year enlistment and spending all of 1970 at Danang and other Scenic SEA locations, and although trained on how to use the M16, I was an Aircraft Mechanic first. So when they used to come and get us for additional support, Hand us an M16(unknown condition),a bandolier with 5 20 rd mags and tell us to get on the truck in the middle of the night, it was not on my list of most favorites. The point I am trying to make is that unless you do this daily or train for this sort of thing, in an ongoing basis, in my humble opinion, "You Are" going to be experiencing something you will have no previous experience having done before and no idea what to expect. So the only thing you can do is have everything within your control correct. You all can go back and argue what order to load the slugs and buckshot in again. I pray for all of us we never have to use any of it. As always, just my .02.
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  #85  
Old 09-22-2017, 8:36 PM
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Originally Posted by drunktank View Post
Huh? I'll elaborate - I have 2 retired battalion chiefs and a couple still active firefighter/paramedics in my family that have taken many gunshot calls through their careers. The majority of them were "bird shot" loads from varying distances (most from suicide) but most of the ones from home/indoor distances were enough to stop the person. I'm basing this off what I see in the pictures and their first hand accounts. Point being is that they do pretty devastating damage to people at close range - the current ranges I would be dealing with in my current living quarters.
No doubt a 12g "birdshot" round can be devastating.

I think my major and somewhat missed point is they are less immediately incapacitating (stop the theat) than buckshot in an HD scenario. In my example, I could've fought back much more effectively than if it had been buckshot. Shot placement during suicide isn't much of a metric.
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  #86  
Old 09-22-2017, 8:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Red-Osier77 View Post
I'm glad you know what every person here behind their keyboard here has been through.

very epic dumb post you posted.
Par for the course. Juz sayin'.
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  #87  
Old 09-22-2017, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by leadstorm View Post
I've personally rolled up a coyote DRT with one round of 20ga #8 bird shot (it removed his throat). I was dove hunting and he ran in front of me.

I mention that not to recommend the practice...but to simply say that it's anecdotal, I got lucky, and real-live circumstances are impossible to predict.

This thread is classic internet waaaaaay overthinking. Buckshot of almost any flavor gives the shooter a very good chance - beyond that it's mostly hyperbolic conjecture.
I stoned one with #5's at about 20 yards while whacking jack rabbits. Arse over teakettle DRT. But they weigh about 40#, thin cross-section and have thin coats in summer.
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  #88  
Old 09-22-2017, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by langss View Post
You all can go back and argue what order to load the slugs and buckshot in again. I pray for all of us we never have to use any of it.
Failing an actual zombie apocalypse or an invasion by North Korea, very few of us will ever have to use any of this, thank God. In the meantime, we amuse ourselves by, yes, arguing over what order to load the slugs in. You say this like its a bad thing.
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  #89  
Old 09-23-2017, 7:48 AM
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Originally Posted by SandHill View Post
Failing an actual zombie apocalypse or an invasion by North Korea, very few of us will ever have to use any of this, thank God. In the meantime, we amuse ourselves by, yes, arguing over what order to load the slugs in. You say this like its a bad thing.
Well I guess its kind of like the guy/girl in the fancy car that fly's by me up to the red light, only to have me pull up next to them....to each his own, what ever blows your dress up, whatever floats your boat.....
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  #90  
Old 09-23-2017, 8:11 AM
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Originally Posted by langss View Post
Well I guess its kind of like the guy/girl in the fancy car that fly's by me up to the red light, only to have me pull up next to them....to each his own, what ever blows your dress up, whatever floats your boat.....
If you think about it, there is not that much hobby involved in a home defense shotgun. I don't own a ranch, so my only chance to use it is pretty much an indoor range at seven yards. Buckshot at seven yards on a paper target produces confetti and leaves you without anything to aim at pretty quick. Kinda boring. So there are pretty much two things you can do. Hang every tacticool dohickey you can find off your shotgun, and endlessly debate and upgrade. Not appealing to me. Or you can lurk on threads like this and endlessly debate which round is more effective and which round is too dangerous. Either choice is better than having to take it out every night and defend yourselves against zombies or North Koreans
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  #91  
Old 09-23-2017, 8:29 AM
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I personally like the aguila "mini" shells. They are low recoil, 1-3/4" and come in a variety of 12ga flavors.
As a bonus in a 5 round tube, you can usually get at least 8 of these in there. The more the merrier and lesser recoil.
In the Mossy 8 round tube it is rumored that you can stuff 13 in there with one in the pipe
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  #92  
Old 09-23-2017, 8:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mitch1 View Post
I personally like the aguila "mini" shells. They are low recoil, 1-3/4" and come in a variety of 12ga flavors.
As a bonus in a 5 round tube, you can usually get at least 8 of these in there. The more the merrier and lesser recoil.
In the Mossy 8 round tube it is rumored that you can stuff 13 in there with one in the pipe
Tell us more. What are you running them in? Winchester? Mossberg with the adapter off Amazon? Do you trust the adapter for HD? What do they pattern like? I have read you get a lot of flyers, especially the No. 1 shot out of the mixed No. 1 / No. 4 load.

The capacity advantage is huge, but I have my doubts about them as an HD load.
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  #93  
Old 09-23-2017, 9:31 AM
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The capacity advantage is huge, but I have my doubts about them as an HD load.
Me too. To be fair, I haven't tried them so I can't speak from experience, but it seems like it would take well over 1 shot to take down a tweeker that's hell bent on hurting you. it might allow you to hold 66% more shells, but if takes 3x as many shots to equal the effectiveness of 1 full-size shell, then that doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.

I'm looking for a shell that it will only take 1 center-mass hit to put the bad guy on the floor, and I'm just not confident that those mini-shells can do that. Maybe they do? But I'm skeptical.
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  #94  
Old 09-23-2017, 1:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SandHill View Post
If you think about it, there is not that much hobby involved in a home defense shotgun. I don't own a ranch, so my only chance to use it is pretty much an indoor range at seven yards. Buckshot at seven yards on a paper target produces confetti and leaves you without anything to aim at pretty quick. Kinda boring. So there are pretty much two things you can do. Hang every tacticool dohickey you can find off your shotgun, and endlessly debate and upgrade. Not appealing to me. Or you can lurk on threads like this and endlessly debate which round is more effective and which round is too dangerous. Either choice is better than having to take it out every night and defend yourselves against zombies or North Koreans
While you circumstances may be different, having been in a situation where I did not know if everything would work per plan, I go out of my way to try everything out before I can comfortably say "Good". Now I agree with your statement about hanging crap all over the gun, so suffice to say my guns only have what makes them work for me(nothing)hanging off of them. I have spent a good deal of money on shells to find out what fed reliably and what did not. I did not find this boring, as I was also blasting targets to see what the patterns looked like. But to each his own....
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  #95  
Old 09-23-2017, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SandHill View Post
If you think about it, there is not that much hobby involved in a home defense shotgun. I don't own a ranch, so my only chance to use it is pretty much an indoor range at seven yards. Buckshot at seven yards on a paper target produces confetti and leaves you without anything to aim at pretty quick. Kinda boring. So there are pretty much two things you can do. Hang every tacticool dohickey you can find off your shotgun, and endlessly debate and upgrade. Not appealing to me. Or you can lurk on threads like this and endlessly debate which round is more effective and which round is too dangerous. Either choice is better than having to take it out every night and defend yourselves against zombies or North Koreans
That depends on the gun and ammo. I had my M4 at an indoor range yesterday with some cheap Fiocchi buckshot and at 7 yards there was almost no spread, so little it almost looked like I was shooting slugs. Even at 10 yards they were barely opening up.

I also had a half case of slugs that my buddy and I played a couple rounds of battleship with and it was a blast. The slugs are pretty much the same size as the bullseyes on the ships so we could confirm hits without bringing the target in vs. when we played with his AR pistol and the tiny 5.56 holes.

Personally I keep good old Remington 00 buckshot in my shot gun for HD even though I like the pattern of the Hornady Zombie stuff but I'd rather not have a defense attorney show that box to the jury if the day comes I have to use it in a defense situation.
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  #96  
Old 09-23-2017, 3:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SandHill View Post
Tell us more. What are you running them in? Winchester? Mossberg with the adapter off Amazon? Do you trust the adapter for HD? What do they pattern like? I have read you get a lot of flyers, especially the No. 1 shot out of the mixed No. 1 / No. 4 load.

The capacity advantage is huge, but I have my doubts about them as an HD load.
Mossberg 500, with the adapter from Amazon(actually from a good ole boy from Texas).
I have run over a hundred mini shells with no hangups or mishaps.
yes, I trust it
Pattern, I shoot close distance, practice for the zombie apocalypse. about a one foot spread at 10-20 feet.
Flyers, only little birdies, they drop real quick.
the advantages to me are, low recoil and increased capacity.
Disadvantages, cost and range.
Hey, for HD do you worry about range or cost?
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  #97  
Old 09-23-2017, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikemass View Post
That depends on the gun and ammo. I had my M4 at an indoor range yesterday with some cheap Fiocchi buckshot and at 7 yards there was almost no spread, so little it almost looked like I was shooting slugs. Even at 10 yards they were barely opening up.

I also had a half case of slugs that my buddy and I played a couple rounds of battleship with and it was a blast. The slugs are pretty much the same size as the bullseyes on the ships so we could confirm hits without bringing the target in vs. when we played with his AR pistol and the tiny 5.56 holes.

Personally I keep good old Remington 00 buckshot in my shot gun for HD even though I like the pattern of the Hornady Zombie stuff but I'd rather not have a defense attorney show that box to the jury if the day comes I have to use it in a defense situation.
Interesting, my M4 is exactly the same way, with Estate buckshot. Groups are so tight at 10 yards that I was double checking my ammo to see if I was shooting slugs. For the purpose that ammo serves (home defense) I'd actually prefer it to be a bigger pattern than that, but I'm sure it will still put a good hurting on anyone standing in front of it. Like getting shot with a 9mm 9 times in the same spot. I wouldn't want to volunteer for that.
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  #98  
Old 10-04-2017, 6:02 PM
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Even birdshot from a 18.5 or 20 inch barrel at hallway distances will be more than adequate for home defense as its still in about a grapefruit size pattern +/- . Of course you wouldnt want it for a 30 yard shot but as a home defense round that isnt going to over penetrate as much as other options id be good with it. Thats just my two cents.
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  #99  
Old 10-04-2017, 6:49 PM
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Even birdshot from a 18.5 or 20 inch barrel at hallway distances will be more than adequate for home defense as its still in about a grapefruit size pattern +/- . Of course you wouldnt want it for a 30 yard shot but as a home defense round that isnt going to over penetrate as much as other options id be good with it. Thats just my two cents.
Not worth 2 cents.
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  #100  
Old 10-04-2017, 7:14 PM
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Here are just three quick examples from separate incidents I pulled up on home invasion robberies to illustrate why I don't select bird shot as a home defense round.

"Witnesses tell police four heavily armed suspects wearing bullet-proof vests entered the property and shot the victims. Their names have not been released"

"When police arrived at the home, they found one man shot in the garage. He was wearing black clothing, a black mask and a bulletproof vest"

"Bluefield home invasion suspect facing eight felony charges including committing a violent crime while wearing body armor"
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  #101  
Old 10-04-2017, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Hairball View Post
Here are just three quick examples from separate incidents I pulled up on home invasion robberies to illustrate why I don't select bird shot as a home defense round.

"Witnesses tell police four heavily armed suspects wearing bullet-proof vests entered the property and shot the victims. Their names have not been released"

"When police arrived at the home, they found one man shot in the garage. He was wearing black clothing, a black mask and a bulletproof vest"

"Bluefield home invasion suspect facing eight felony charges including committing a violent crime while wearing body armor"
Exactly why I rely on 357 sig or rifles for home defense. No children in the house and a good distance to the neighbors with block walls between. I prefer the high power in the case I need it
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  #102  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Hairball View Post
Here are just three quick examples from separate incidents I pulled up on home invasion robberies to illustrate why I don't select bird shot as a home defense round.

"Witnesses tell police four heavily armed suspects wearing bullet-proof vests entered the property and shot the victims. Their names have not been released"

"When police arrived at the home, they found one man shot in the garage. He was wearing black clothing, a black mask and a bulletproof vest"

"Bluefield home invasion suspect facing eight felony charges including committing a violent crime while wearing body armor"
Level IIA is still rated to stop buck.
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  #103  
Old 10-05-2017, 2:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ShredLA View Post
Even birdshot from a 18.5 or 20 inch barrel at hallway distances will be more than adequate for home defense as its still in about a grapefruit size pattern +/- . Of course you wouldnt want it for a 30 yard shot but as a home defense round that isnt going to over penetrate as much as other options id be good with it. Thats just my two cents.
Not even worth half a cent.

Bird shot isn't going to penetrate enough as it's specifically designed to kill birds.

You conveniently ignore the fact that energy is rated by individual pellet size, and NOT by total shot weight. If it were by total shot weight, we wouldn't need the variety of shotgun ammo loads available.

Not only that, the post says nothing about stopping the bad actor is your FIRST responsibility. Bird shot is not known for first shot stops on anything but birds.

Duh.

Name a reputable trainer who recommends bird shot for a home defense load.

Better still would be to simply save money and not buy ammo, as everybody knows that bad actors run away when they hear the sound of a shotgun being racked.

Duh, again.
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  #104  
Old 10-05-2017, 4:59 PM
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Level IIA is still rated to stop buck.
00 will still be effective on IIA and while it will stop the shot, the energy delivered will still break bones and cause tissue damage. Granted, most will run at the first shot but if a shotgun was going to be used, I would go with 00 or slugs and never consider bird shot. JMHO and if someone selects bird shot, that's fine, just not something I would consider.

Last edited by Hairball; 10-05-2017 at 6:44 PM..
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