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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 08-23-2017, 10:57 PM
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I might suggest that if any money can be recouped that it be used to carry one lawsuits now in the courts and to help fund new challenges. It is money already spent and could be used better if we all agree to donate any share we might get. Let DOJ pay for it's own demise.
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  #42  
Old 08-24-2017, 3:25 PM
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Factoid: Some in DOJ are squirming in there chairs and it isn't their tight underwear.
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  #43  
Old 08-24-2017, 3:32 PM
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What could possibly make you think that? Their long track record of being made to behave?
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  #44  
Old 08-24-2017, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Scribe View Post
Factoid: Some in DOJ are squirming in there chairs and it isn't their tight underwear.

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  #45  
Old 08-24-2017, 7:53 PM
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How much is it in other states?
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Originally Posted by jcchmbrs View Post
NCIC back in TN was $10
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Originally Posted by pdq_wizzard View Post
$0.00 in Idaho

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Originally Posted by dustoff31 View Post
There is no DROS in AZ. The NICS check costs zero dollars.
Precisely.

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Originally Posted by SmallShark View Post
if i can get refund for my DROS, about 20, all the money will go to CRPA
Same here. But I've got many more than 20!
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  #46  
Old 08-25-2017, 8:31 AM
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Originally Posted by darkshire View Post
it should be $0 tops.
Exactly. In my opinion they shouldn't even be involved.
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  #47  
Old 08-25-2017, 8:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onelonehorseman View Post
Excellent work!

Is there any possibility the DOJ could eventually be forced to repay some of those funds to the gun purchasers?
No, administrative 'expenses' and then the lawyers will take the rest as fees.

Wake up and smell the corruption, DOJ my @ss, more like DOC for corruption.
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  #48  
Old 08-25-2017, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by big red View Post
I might suggest that if any money can be recouped that it be used to carry one lawsuits now in the courts and to help fund new challenges. It is money already spent and could be used better if we all agree to donate any share we might get. Let DOJ pay for it's own demise.
Exactly - I'll happily keep paying my mandatory $19 per transaction if that's where it goes
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  #49  
Old 08-25-2017, 8:55 PM
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Excuse me if I don't celebrate and throw a party after hearing this news.
But I think the next likeliest action is that the CA DOJ will just appeal the ruling, and nothing will change for the next 5 years, at least, while the appeal waits to be heard.
I've come to accept, that I will be long dead and buried and skeletonized, before any semblance of justice is brought to this once-great state.
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  #50  
Old 08-25-2017, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
A court ordering DOJ to review itself should produce a fair result, yes?
Yep. It should yield just about the same results as LE or any other government agency investigating themselves.
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  #51  
Old 08-25-2017, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by robertkjjj View Post
Excuse me if I don't celebrate and throw a party after hearing this news.
But I think the next likeliest action is that the CA DOJ will just appeal the ruling, and nothing will change for the next 5 years, at least, while the appeal waits to be heard.
I've come to accept, that I will be long dead and buried and skeletonized, before any semblance of justice is brought to this once-great state.
I don't know why you care, you take every opportunity you can to proclaim that you ignore all gun laws anyways. So whatever new laws get passed or old ones get tossed, is irrelevant to you... unless you've changed your mind today and decided gun laws actually do affect you? DROS fees shouldn't affect you since you don't buy guns the way the law requires you to anyways, or is that a law you follow?
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  #52  
Old 09-05-2017, 9:43 AM
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Seems all governmental agencies, especially the CA DOJ, regularly exceed their authority. Why, because there is no penalty for it. Nobody at the agency spends time in jail for contempt.

Found this quote regarding the IRS overstepping its authority:

“No matter how it is framed, the question a court faces when
confronted with an agency’s interpretation of a statute it
administers is always, simply, whether the agency has stayed
within the bounds of its statutory authority.” City of Arlington v.
FCC, 133 S. Ct. 1863, 1868 (2013).” 5

We have this issue today and forever until bureaucrats are held responsible.
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  #53  
Old 09-06-2017, 7:04 AM
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Whaaaat!!? A government Institution caught doing something unethical and potentially illegal? NO!

This is yet another clear example that these institutions lack the credibility and professional integrity required for citizens to entrust them with personal information. Firearms sales and regulation should be left up to the individual state.
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  #54  
Old 09-06-2017, 7:10 AM
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Orwellian we are talking about the state. This thread is about the CA DOJ's misuse of DROS fees, which are state mandated fees.
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  #55  
Old 09-29-2017, 7:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
No, administrative 'expenses' and then the lawyers will take the rest as fees.

Wake up and smell the corruption, DOJ my @ss, more like DOC for corruption.
Jimi Jah,


I'm with you on your statement. Most likely they'll find some way to avoid paying us or anyone back because if they do they'll find out that their agenda can't move forward due to the loss in money.

With the new law suit the the NRA and CRPA filed regarding the new AW law they should take both issues to court and declare both unlawful and be ordered to dismiss and review once again what their doing. All its doing is taking money from the working class and putting it in their pockets.

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  #56  
Old 09-29-2017, 9:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I don't know why you care, you take every opportunity you can to proclaim that you ignore all gun laws anyways. So whatever new laws get passed or old ones get tossed, is irrelevant to you... unless you've changed your mind today and decided gun laws actually do affect you? DROS fees shouldn't affect you since you don't buy guns the way the law requires you to anyways, or is that a law you follow?
This.
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  #57  
Old 10-26-2017, 8:41 PM
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I too would be wiling to donate all of my DROS refund to the CRPA or put it towards any legal battle to fight the asinine laws in CA. The problem is getting the DOJ to actually pay money back is going to be next to impossible I think.
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  #58  
Old 12-03-2017, 8:58 AM
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Originally Posted by toddytguns View Post
Orwellian we are talking about the state. This thread is about the CA DOJ's misuse of DROS fees, which are state mandated fees.
The DOJ is a federal institution, and the CA DOJ is merely a subsidiary of that Institution.

Last edited by OrwellianEra; 12-03-2017 at 9:04 AM..
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  #59  
Old 12-03-2017, 11:31 AM
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The DOJ is a federal institution, and the CA DOJ is merely a subsidiary of that Institution.
Wut?
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  #60  
Old 12-04-2017, 5:26 AM
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The DOJ is a federal institution, and the CA DOJ is merely a subsidiary of that Institution.
US education at its best.
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  #61  
Old 12-04-2017, 8:15 AM
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The DOJ is a federal institution, and the CA DOJ is merely a subsidiary of that Institution.
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  #62  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by OrwellianEra View Post
The DOJ is a federal institution, and the CA DOJ is merely a subsidiary of that Institution.
Another example of a "No Civics Classes For You" public education victim.
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  #63  
Old 04-09-2019, 11:56 PM
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Cross-linking from this thread: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...1&postcount=15

What's the status of this case? I didn't even know it was still going, and according to the legislative analysis for the Assembly Public Safety Committee on the 4/9 hearing for AB-1669 (concerning changing the DROS fee) is that the judge ruled against us on March 4th, yet the last update that I can find about this was by the NRA-ILA in December 2018.

Does anyone want to post the March 4th ruling?
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  #64  
Old 04-10-2019, 9:24 AM
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Here is the ruling: http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...try-Ruling.pdf

Unfortunately, the new judge mostly negated the win the previous judge gave us by declaring that DOJ had shown that the DROS Fee is not being over-charged, apparently based on DOJ's briefing, though it is not clear. The new judge also ruled that the DROS Fee is not a tax because only DROS Fee payers end up in APPS, so that class of people can be saddled with the costs of APPS. We do not believe that is the proper analysis; rather, we believe the fee vs. tax analysis should look only at those costs a fee payer's actual activity causes. In the case of a DROS Fee, that is the cost of a background check and registration, not the cost of the APPS program, which less than one percent of DROS Fee payers will ever fall into.

We will be appealing.
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  #65  
Old 04-10-2019, 12:03 PM
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Thanks Sean! Hopefully things will go better on appeal. I appreciate the work you guys are doing.
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  #66  
Old 04-10-2019, 1:01 PM
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Originally Posted by sbrady@Michel&Associates View Post
The new judge also ruled that the DROS Fee is not a tax because only DROS Fee payers end up in APPS, so that class of people can be saddled with the costs of APPS.
By that logic, property tax isn't a tax because only property owners pay it. Income tax isn't a tax because only people with income pay any.
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  #67  
Old 04-10-2019, 1:21 PM
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Why was there a "new" judge?
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  #68  
Old 04-10-2019, 1:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sbrady@Michel&Associates View Post
Here is the ruling: http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...try-Ruling.pdf

The new judge also ruled that the DROS Fee is not a tax because only DROS Fee payers end up in APPS, so that class of people can be saddled with the costs of APPS.

We will be appealing.
Is that true? I thought anyone who got 5150'd or involuntarily committed as well as all those with DV convictions and felonies ended up in there too. Or do they end up on another list of just plain "prohibited persons"?
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  #69  
Old 04-10-2019, 1:33 PM
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Is that true? I thought anyone who got 5150'd or involuntarily committed as well as all those with DV convictions and felonies ended up in there too. Or do they end up on another list of just plain "prohibited persons"?
Good point, you would think they would want all prohibited persons listed, whether they have DROS'd a firearm in CA or not.
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Old 04-10-2019, 1:45 PM
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Why was there a "new" judge?
Just a reassignment, it happens. Unfortunate for us, as he gave us a solid win in the first part of this case.

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Is that true? I thought anyone who got 5150'd or involuntarily committed as well as all those with DV convictions and felonies ended up in there too. Or do they end up on another list of just plain "prohibited persons"?
No, it is not true, and we pointed this out to the court. To be clear, though, all prohibited people end up on a list, but only people who have a firearm "registered" to them in AFS can be in the APPS database. It is possible to acquire a firearm that is in AFS without paying a DROS Fee.
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Old 04-10-2019, 1:58 PM
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Quote:
Unfortunately, the new judge mostly negated the win the previous judge gave us by declaring that DOJ had shown that the DROS Fee is not being over-charged, apparently based on DOJ's briefing, though it is not clear.


The Judge SAID,...... that DOJ SAID,...... that DOJ is GTG.


RE-AFFIRMING POST #41

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
A court ordering DOJ to review itself should produce a fair result, yes?
Quote:
Of course it will be a "fair result".

Just like the IRS investigated Lois Lerner,...... and found no wrong doing.

The State Dept investigated Hillery,...... and found no wrong doing.

And the US-DOJ investigated Eric Holder,...... and found no wrong doing.

MOVE ALONG PEASANTS...............NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!!

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  #72  
Old 04-11-2019, 1:09 AM
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There is an article on the new judge "HON. RICHARD K. SUEYOSHI" in this law magazine.

Listing this here in case someone wants to know his personal background, and how it might affect his views on this case. He's a UC Berkeley graduate with some recognitions for his volunteering and service. He values diversity and handles a large caseload of misdemeanors.

https://issuu.com/milenkovlais/docs/...2018_online/18

He seems like a decent fellow. I regret he opined the way he did. Still parsing the judgement now.

Last edited by Citizen One; 04-11-2019 at 1:15 AM..
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  #73  
Old 04-16-2019, 6:29 PM
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How does this affect Senate Bill 1669 (by Rob Bonta - D)? Apparently they're trying to raise the DROS fees paid by consumers with that bill
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  #74  
Old 04-16-2019, 6:39 PM
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There is an article on the new judge "HON. RICHARD K. SUEYOSHI" in this law magazine.

Listing this here in case someone wants to know his personal background, and how it might affect his views on this case. He's a UC Berkeley graduate with some recognitions for his volunteering and service. He values diversity and handles a large caseload of misdemeanors.

https://issuu.com/milenkovlais/docs/...2018_online/18

He seems like a decent fellow. I regret he opined the way he did. Still parsing the judgement now.
I know him, used to work with him. He is a good guy. I guess I need to read the ruling...
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  #75  
Old 04-16-2019, 8:57 PM
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How does this affect Senate Bill 1669 (by Rob Bonta - D)? Apparently they're trying to raise the DROS fees paid by consumers with that bill
I talked about this in the other threads when I brought up the question on status

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Originally Posted by BeAuMaN View Post
Related from AB-18 and AB-1699 in Public Safety Committee today.

https://www.assembly.ca.gov/media/as...20190409/video

AB-18 is discussed at 58: 10.

Mostly discusses the cost the $25 fee would impose.

AB-1669 is discussed at 3: 02: 33.

More is discussed on the point of DROS fees as well as the surpluses you mention.

Also, I thought we won gentry v harris/Becerra (which is the suit over DROS funds) but reading the analysis for the committee today we ultimately lost it recently? That case concerns the question you ask rather initimately.
And then this talks about the Analysis mentioning this case:

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Originally Posted by BeAuMaN View Post
So yeah, as linked above, it does indeed say we had a favorable ruling in 2017 in... Sacramento Superior Court? However, apparently this case has been ongoing.

For each bill on the Committee, on the day before or the day of the hearing, an analysis done by the committee lawyers is published on each bill. This can be found under publications.

Now, if we go to April 9, 2019 Committee Analysis Part III, we find the following concerning AB-1669 and DROS Fees on PDF Page 42.
Quote:
Recently, the DROS fee was challenged in court by a group of plaintiffs made up of gun owners and enthusiasts. (Gentry v. Becerra, (Mar. 4, 2019, No. 34-2013-80001667) Sacramento Sup. Ct.) The plaintiffs argued that DROS fee was not properly calculated, that DOJ was using DROS funds outside of their statutory authority, and that the fee was in fact a tax, thus violating the California Constitution. (Id. at 1.) Ultimately the superior court ruled against the plaintiffs, finding that the DROS fee was a reasonable approximation of the costs of the government-provided regulatory services and that the DROS fee was not a tax. (Id. at 13.) Because this bill would both increase the DROS fee and expand the activities for which that fee can be used, it is likely to subject the fee to renewed legal challenges.
So if you watch the video you can see the discussion on the AB-1669, and then if you read the analysis you can see that the analysis presented to legislators points out that we did ultimately get ruled against, and that the fee was a "reasonable approximation" and "not a tax", though that the bill would likely be challenged if passed. Legislators (and/or their staff) use those analysis to get a quick idea of the impacts and/or effects of a bill, so that kind of hurts us in regards to legislators looking at whether to pass AB-1669.

However, if we should challenge the ruling and prevail, then the case may set us up to challenge AB-1669 (should it pass). AB-1669 does do a better job of spelling out how DROS fees are allocated, which is part of the challenge that was made in Gentry vs Harris/Becerra, and winning on that probably wouldn't be enough to challenge AB-1669, given it spells out allocation better (even if that allocation is a "blank check" so to speak)... however the other part is whether the fee is actually a tax, and if we got it ruled as a tax, which would (from a skimming, I haven't had time to read yet, been busy this last couple weeks) violate the California Constitution, then that would definitely set us up to challenge and/or invalidate AB-1669, since it does the same core thing that is being challenged: Using fees to fund enforcement activities by the CA DoJ.

I think an analogue would be (though do forgive if I get it wrong):
DROS fees shouldn't be raised to fund enforcement of bad actors who commit firearm crimes (who may or may not buy them at a state dealer in the first place) no more than should the state fees/taxes on cell phone bills be raised to fund the enforcement of bad actors who engage criminal speech like incitement to violence (who may or may not use California based plans or approved services in the first place).
Service is a bit different than a Product, but that's a state tax that exists that comes to mind related to a purchased thing used for speech.

Still need to fully read this opinion later, and thanks Sean for posting it.

Last edited by BeAuMaN; 04-16-2019 at 9:02 PM..
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  #76  
Old 04-20-2019, 9:11 PM
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Some of you need to review Rule #3 and the pertinent part as written by Kestryll follows:


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Non-Second Amendment political discussion will be kept civil, polite and respectful just as Second Amendment political discussion has been expected to be. Sarcastic or insulting terms or images used in regards to elected officials will not be allowed. It doesn’t matter if it is Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Pelosi or our own State Senators, the clever names and sarcastic comments do not make us look anything other than childish. You do not have to respect the person but we expect you to respect the Office. If you can not your post will be removed, repeated removals will cause your account to be closed.
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Old 05-25-2019, 12:45 AM
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BeAuMaN BeAuMaN is offline
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Going to note here that on 5/25, AB-1699 is no longer going to increase the DROS fee directly, and instead is creating a seperate "supplemental fund" for regulatory activities and enforcement (to be used by appropriation by the legislature). Furthermore, they removed the only subdivision (11) that concerns enforcement from the original DROS fee.

I'd -like- to think that this is because CA DoJ feels threatened by Gentry v Becerra, since I believe this tries to sidestep the case (for going into the future, but there's still things to answer for previous fee setting and fund raiding). If you're paying attention Sean, I imagine it's.... too early to talk about, but if you do have any thoughts, I'd be curious.

The other thing this did is reduce the bill from a 2/3 vote to a majority vote, but I'd find it hard to believe that this bill would have trouble getting votes, so I imagine that's ancillary.

Last edited by BeAuMaN; 05-25-2019 at 12:57 AM..
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Old 05-25-2019, 7:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BeAuMaN View Post
I'd -like- to think that this is because CA DoJ feels threatened by Gentry v Becerra, since I believe this tries to sidestep the case (for going into the future, but there's still things to answer for previous fee setting and fund raiding). If you're paying attention Sean, I imagine it's.... too early to talk about, but if you do have any thoughts, I'd be curious.
From the April 9, Policy Committee Analysis:
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Recently, the DROS fee was challenged in court by a group of plaintiffs made up of gun owners and enthusiasts. (Gentry v. Becerra, (Mar. 4, 2019, No. 34-2013-80001667) Sacramento Sup. Ct.) The plaintiffs argued that DROS fee was not properly calculated, that DOJ was using DROS funds outside of their statutory authority, and that the fee was in fact a tax, thus violating the California Constitution. (Id. at 1.) Ultimately the superior court ruled against the plaintiffs, finding that the DROS fee was a reasonable approximation of the costs of the government-provided regulatory services and that the DROS fee was not a tax. (Id. at 13.) Because this bill would both increase the DROS fee and expand the activities for which that fee can be used, it is likely to subject the fee to renewed legal challenges.
So, at the outset, the issue was raised. The current realignment of the sections doesn’t negate this statement from the original policy hearing (in fact, the floor analyses refer back to this document.)

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Originally Posted by BeAuMaN View Post
The other thing this did is reduce the bill from a 2/3 vote to a majority vote, but I'd find it hard to believe that this bill would have trouble getting votes, so I imagine that's ancillary.
In an earlier version of the bill, the Leg Counsel included standard language for any bill which increases a tax:
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This bill would include a change in state statute that would result in a taxpayer paying a higher tax within the meaning of Section 3 of Article XIII A of the California Constitution, and thus would require for passage the approval of 2/3 of the membership of each house of the Legislature.
OOOOOPS!

After what was, no doubt, an, “Oh, S***”, moment, this was amended out, because DOJ has steadfastly refused to call DROS a “tax”, relying on its status as a “fee”, which doesn’t require 2/3 vote to pass.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 05-25-2019 at 7:33 AM..
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