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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 06-10-2018, 8:08 AM
Poblano12 Poblano12 is offline
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Default To stay stock on trigger or upgrade to apex

Starting my journey to carry concealed and was curiously if it was worth it to stay with the stock oem trigger in an g19 or to go with an apex. Always heard that it’s always the aftermarket parts that cause a lot of issues.

Thanks in advance
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  #2  
Old 06-10-2018, 8:28 AM
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A gent on another thread posted the advice that when it comes to a carry weapon, stay stock. Modify your range guns to your heart's content. That's what I follow. Others will disagree.
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Old 06-10-2018, 10:35 AM
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Change it and report back to us if you ever have to use it.
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Old 06-10-2018, 10:58 AM
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Check with your IA. Most if not all do not allow that modification.
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Old 06-10-2018, 2:35 PM
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Orange County does not allow internal modifications so save your money


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Old 06-10-2018, 3:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Yodaman View Post
Orange County does not allow internal modifications so save your money


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Can you show me where that’s located I’ve been trying to find an article to reference back to later on
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Old 06-10-2018, 4:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Poblano12 View Post
Can you show me where that’s located I’ve been trying to find an article to reference back to later on
Did you not read the ToS they gave you?

http://www.ocsd.org/civicax/filebank...x?BlobID=73535

Quote:
Terms of License Acknowledgement
Carry Concealed Weapon – CCW
9) Restrictions by Act: Any of the following or similar acts while in possession of a firearm shall be
considered a violation of the licensee’s general responsibilities as specified below:

m. possessing a weapon altered from its originally approved design, or weapon not listed on
the license,
n. possessing any equipment or attachments to a firearm not specifically approved as a part
of the license, and
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Old 06-10-2018, 4:52 PM
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I read it but looking for actual specifics
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Old 06-10-2018, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Poblano12 View Post
I read it but looking for actual specifics
Is the ToS not specific enough for you?
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  #10  
Old 06-10-2018, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Poblano12 View Post
I read it but looking for actual specifics


You can ask them when your there and they will tell you, or even email them. But the TOS is pretty specific. No altering. Changing a trigger would be an alter from stock.


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  #11  
Old 06-10-2018, 9:28 PM
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You can have external modifications such as lasers, sights, etc, but no internal mods. I added a CT laser to my S&W M&P 9 after emailing the OCSD, and they said it was fine. Included in their response was a lecture on flight physics and trajectories at various distances.
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  #12  
Old 06-10-2018, 11:05 PM
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Stock Glock trigger works fine. CCW is not about bullseyes at 25 yds., it’s up close and personal.

Besides, you’ll likely get revoked if you should use it.


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  #13  
Old 06-10-2018, 11:30 PM
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Well of course it’s going to be up close, I think for me the appealing thing of a new trigger was just how it feels so crispy and smooth compared to the mushy mess of a oem, looks like I’ll be spending more quality time with my g19 to get in rhythm with the trigger
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Old 06-11-2018, 7:50 AM
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polish job and call it a day. Not worth the potential hassle or having your CCW privileges revoked
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Old 06-11-2018, 7:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poblano12 View Post
Well of course it’s going to be up close, I think for me the appealing thing of a new trigger was just how it feels so crispy and smooth compared to the mushy mess of a oem, looks like I’ll be spending more quality time with my g19 to get in rhythm with the trigger
Excellent concept often missed on these boards...learn to shoot the gun.

Ammunition, range time and training are the most important things you can add to your gun. Once you understand how the Glock trigger can work for you, it will no longer seem to be “...a mushy mess.” (Although I DO hate the ribbed trigger on the compacts.)
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Old 06-11-2018, 1:36 PM
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It could be an issue if you change the internals, but I have not seen a trigger pull being an issue at a court yet. An officers' firearms had light triggers in couple of shootings in the past, but the firearms were returned to the armory, and the trigger was returned to the factory spec.

I believe if the trigger pull is 4 1/2 pounds or more, it would not be a matter.
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Old 06-11-2018, 3:36 PM
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In OC you also cannot change the slide release or mag release on the Glock, even with factory Glock parts.... it must be factory original.
I do not believe in "pushing the envelope"... we are lucky that OCSD is issuing, and I am glad to accept their position.
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Old 06-11-2018, 3:53 PM
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Can't hurt to ask. Obviously (or not obviously for some people) practice, practice, practice. In my opinion, a modification that can improve your capability and help you put accurate shots on target isn't a bad thing.
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Old 06-11-2018, 4:27 PM
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If OC says don't screw with it, don't screw with it.
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Old 06-11-2018, 4:47 PM
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I agree with the above #19 post. Learn to shoot your weapon defensively by practice and practice again. You don't need a target trigger on a defensive handgun.
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Old 06-11-2018, 9:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert101 View Post
I agree with the above #19 post. Learn to shoot your weapon defensively by practice and practice again. You don't need a target trigger on a defensive handgun.
You don't need a target trigger. But a trigger that performs better than the stock trigger and aids in marksmanship can be useful.
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Old 06-12-2018, 7:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poblano12 View Post
I read it but looking for actual specifics
You can go to their website and read the POLICY for CCW. Here's two section that might apply:

218.4 APPLICATION PROCESS
e) Training:
3. The applicant’s firearm(s) is/are subject to inspection at the discretion of the Sheriff or designated Department Member. The Sheriff reserves the right to deny a license for any firearm that has been altered from the manufacturer's specifications or that is deemed unsafe (Penal Code § 31910).

and

218.6.1 LICENSE RESTRICTIONS
c) The alteration of any previously approved firearm including, but not limited to, adjusting the trigger pull or making other modifications that create an unsafe weapon (Penal Code § 31910) shall void any license and serve as grounds for revocation.

I'd say no trigger jobs.
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Old 06-12-2018, 9:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine View Post
In OC you also cannot change the slide release or mag release on the Glock, even with factory Glock parts.... it must be factory original.
I do not believe in "pushing the envelope"... we are lucky that OCSD is issuing, and I am glad to accept their position.
I wouldn’t have expected that especially when really all your doing is adding extended releases that don’t necessarily affect the gun in drastic ways just makes it more convenient like the breakdown notch is a pain to remove
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  #24  
Old 06-12-2018, 9:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibairho View Post
You can go to their website and read the POLICY for CCW. Here's two section that might apply:

218.4 APPLICATION PROCESS
e) Training:
3. The applicant’s firearm(s) is/are subject to inspection at the discretion of the Sheriff or designated Department Member. The Sheriff reserves the right to deny a license for any firearm that has been altered from the manufacturer's specifications or that is deemed unsafe (Penal Code § 31910).

and

218.6.1 LICENSE RESTRICTIONS
c) The alteration of any previously approved firearm including, but not limited to, adjusting the trigger pull or making other modifications that create an unsafe weapon (Penal Code § 31910) shall void any license and serve as grounds for revocation.

I'd say no trigger jobs.
Cool thank you this was exactly what I was looking for
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibairho View Post
You can go to their website and read the POLICY for CCW. Here's two section that might apply:

218.4 APPLICATION PROCESS
e) Training:
3. The applicant’s firearm(s) is/are subject to inspection at the discretion of the Sheriff or designated Department Member. The Sheriff reserves the right to deny a license for any firearm that has been altered from the manufacturer's specifications or that is deemed unsafe (Penal Code § 31910).

and

218.6.1 LICENSE RESTRICTIONS
c) The alteration of any previously approved firearm including, but not limited to, adjusting the trigger pull or making other modifications that create an unsafe weapon (Penal Code § 31910) shall void any license and serve as grounds for revocation.

I'd say no trigger jobs.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...ctionNum=31910.

I can understand triggers to a certain extent but when you really look at the penal code it doesn’t really indicate much and is pretty vague for modifications both external and internal
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poblano12 View Post
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...ctionNum=31910.

I can understand triggers to a certain extent but when you really look at the penal code it doesn’t really indicate much and is pretty vague for modifications both external and internal
My buddy and I were talking on this and what we got from looking up the penal code section was off-roster guns. Maybe they aren't supposed to be on our CCW license. Since we both own a Glock 43, no more questions were asked about it. Stock is just fine for us.
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:28 PM
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So a gen 4 is unsafe just because it’s in California but because it’s legal elsewhere it’s safe??, they don’t make any sense and the fact that they quote that penal makes matters worse
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Old 06-12-2018, 3:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poblano12 View Post
So a gen 4 is unsafe just because it’s in California but because it’s legal elsewhere it’s safe??, they don’t make any sense and the fact that they quote that penal makes matters worse
I agree with you, but that's how California sees it. They make us pay double for a Glock 43, and there is absolutely nothing unsafe about it. It does not have the features that are required either per the penal code.

Again, I'm just happy OC issues CCW licenses.
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Old 06-12-2018, 3:33 PM
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Yea at the end of the day we sadly have to comply to some laws that are pretty pointless to some extent but it’s worth it as we get to carry
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Old 06-12-2018, 9:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poblano12 View Post
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...ctionNum=31910.

I can understand triggers to a certain extent but when you really look at the penal code it doesn’t really indicate much and is pretty vague for modifications both external and internal
In fact, that code makes no mention of modifications to the gun after purchase. It's legal to modify your gun because there's no prohibition against it.

I'm learning that there are some draconian restrictions applied by the Orange county sheriff. If you live in OC, it's best to play their game, illegal though it may be.


Now, having said all that, I need to address some FUD. Can someone, anyone, please point to any case law where a defendant in a righteous defensive shooting was placed in jail/prison because of a modification, any modification, to their pistol? Anyone? I'd love to see it.
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  #31  
Old 06-12-2018, 11:38 PM
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Imo, keep your edc weapon in stock condition. If your stock weapon has a stiff trigger, buy a better/different weapon. The Sig enhanced elite pistols have dynamite short reset triggers with single action pull under 5 lbs. Stock night sights as well.
You're gonna pay around $1000, but won't have any need for a trigger job.
Modifications for ccw creates unnecessary exposures imo.
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Old 06-13-2018, 9:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Considerizer View Post
Imo, keep your edc weapon in stock condition. If your stock weapon has a stiff trigger, buy a better/different weapon. The Sig enhanced elite pistols have dynamite short reset triggers with single action pull under 5 lbs. Stock night sights as well.
You're gonna pay around $1000, but won't have any need for a trigger job.
Modifications for ccw creates unnecessary exposures imo.
How?
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Old 06-13-2018, 6:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Considerizer View Post
Modifications for ccw creates unnecessary exposures imo.
This is FUD perpetuated and expanded by the internet. I'm with rugershooter on this one, I don't see how it exposes you.

I'll say it again, if anyone has actual case law where an otherwise righteous self-defense shooter went to prison because of a modification to their gun, I want to see it.


Don't get me wrong, the advice to keep your gun stock is reasonable. It's just that not everyone can afford to buy guns until they find the right one and modifications are much cheaper. A better trigger will help you stay on target which is what we really want, right?

It's my opinion that a 4lb trigger is as light as anyone should go for a defensive gun. That doesn't mean that you'll go to prison if you make it 3.5lbs.
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Old 06-13-2018, 7:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back4more70 View Post
A gent on another thread posted the advice that when it comes to a carry weapon, stay stock. Modify your range guns to your heart's content. That's what I follow. Others will disagree.
I agree with you. But I would also add if not already said for the OP is to practice with your EDC in addition to any other gun you desire so you don't forget the feel of the stock trigger on THAT gun.
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Old 06-13-2018, 7:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
This is FUD perpetuated and expanded by the internet. I'm with rugershooter on this one, I don't see how it exposes you.

I'll say it again, if anyone has actual case law where an otherwise righteous self-defense shooter went to prison because of a modification to their gun, I want to see it.


Don't get me wrong, the advice to keep your gun stock is reasonable. It's just that not everyone can afford to buy guns until they find the right one and modifications are much cheaper. A better trigger will help you stay on target which is what we really want, right?

It's my opinion that a 4lb trigger is as light as anyone should go for a defensive gun. That doesn't mean that you'll go to prison if you make it 3.5lbs.
Im a trial attorney, and i will go further. Any modification that is generally designed to make the firearm more accurate can be shown to be a good thing by any decent defense attorney.

We are twught in our ccw classes that every bullet has a lawyer attached to it. It stands to reason that a prudent gun owner would take all available steps to ensure that each shot it going where the owner intends that shot to go.

Only in a case where there is an argument that you didnt INTEND to fire but you had installed a very light trigger could it even be argued with a straight face that aftermarket parts somehow make the situation worse.

Think about it. You went to the trouble to buy a pistol and train with it, then you asked the county for permission to carry it concealed, HELL YES you were thinking about having to shoot someone before you pulled the trigger. A more consistent trigger on the gun you got a license to carry concealed isnt going to be a problem, unless its so light you fired when you didnt mean to.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Im a trial attorney, and i will go further. Any modification that is generally designed to make the firearm more accurate can be shown to be a good thing by any decent defense attorney.

We are twught in our ccw classes that every bullet has a lawyer attached to it. It stands to reason that a prudent gun owner would take all available steps to ensure that each shot it going where the owner intends that shot to go.

Only in a case where there is an argument that you didnt INTEND to fire but you had installed a very light trigger could it even be argued with a straight face that aftermarket parts somehow make the situation worse.

Think about it. You went to the trouble to buy a pistol and train with it, then you asked the county for permission to carry it concealed, HELL YES you were thinking about having to shoot someone before you pulled the trigger. A more consistent trigger on the gun you got a license to carry concealed isnt going to be a problem, unless its so light you fired when you didnt mean to.
This makes a lot of sense. Which counties specifically say one cannot modify gun on permit?
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:21 PM
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IMHO.....I think some are missing the point here.

OC has the right to put whatever restrictions on those they issue to aside from any PC.

Peeps should be thankful they are issuing, and not worry about wazoo triggers and upgrades.






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Old 06-13-2018, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rugershooter View Post
How?
An aftermarket trigger can present mechanical problems for a ccw:
Mechanical failures from design and/or installation flaws
Mechanical incompatibility problems
Risk of negligent discharge due to enhanced sensitivity

There are potential legal problems:
Violating issuing agency policies that void your ccw
Violating IA policies that void your insurance coverage
Potential perception problems with a jury during your murder trial

Aftermarket upgrades to any feature affecting the mechanics of a semi-auto pistol strikes me as an unnecessary risk, aka exposure.

I hope this helps.
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaman View Post
IMHO.....I think some are missing the point here.

OC has the right to put whatever restrictions on those they issue to aside from any PC.

Peeps should be thankful they are issuing, and not worry about wazoo triggers and upgrades.






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Respectfully, there are two issues.

What does OC say? I abide by those rules and am thankful they issue.

But when someone says it’s a good idea because you’re screwed if you shoot someone with a modified pistol, that’s bunk and worthy of discussion.

Additinally, I’d guess around half of defensive shootings by non LEO take place in the shooters home or on property owned by the shooter. That means it might not even be an approved weapon, right?
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Old 06-14-2018, 11:06 AM
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Default To stay stock on trigger or upgrade to apex

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post

But when someone says it’s a good idea because you’re screwed if you shoot someone with a modified pistol, that’s bunk and worthy of discussion


Yea, I think discussion worthy is not a bad idea.

Obviously it depends on the county and what they approve, but if you modify your weapon against TOS you have voided your TOS, and would be using a weapon that is not approved for CCW.

Essentially, it would that were carrying you weapon illegally in public. You would not be in legal standing to carry that weapon.


This is aside from using it in your own home.


IMHO...





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Last edited by Yodaman; 06-14-2018 at 11:09 AM..
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