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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 04-11-2018, 7:22 PM
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Default Torrance PD CCW

Looking online, I see no up to date info about Torrance PD. Does anyone have any current info, especially in light of having a new Chief of Police? Thank you all.


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  #2  
Old 04-17-2018, 7:06 AM
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  #3  
Old 04-17-2018, 7:09 AM
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It was not worth the time a few months ago.

IIRC, They wanted you to take the class before submitting the forms for approval which is the reverse of state law.
Another roadblock.

Let me see if I can find that thread.

Edit:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...t=torrance+CCW
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Old 04-25-2018, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Garv View Post
It was not worth the time a few months ago.

IIRC, They wanted you to take the class before submitting the forms for approval which is the reverse of state law.
Another roadblock.

Let me see if I can find that thread.

Edit:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...t=torrance+CCW
You can handle this two ways: (1) Play their game.

If someone has been law abiding, and has the money to burn for a CCW course (probably worthwhile even if you don't get a CCW), they may want to work up their best Good Cause statement, supported by evidence for each assertion (e.g., range receipts if you say you're an avid shooter who carries multiple rifles, shotguns and/or pistols and hundreds of rounds for each once or twice per month; photos of you in the wilderness if you say you go hiking/backpacking in the wilderness where there's spotty cell hone coverage at best and long LE response).

A denial for insufficient GC does not hurt your future chances. A denial for lack of GMC may hurt your future chances.

(2) Get the LA County Superior Court's Civil Grand Jury involved in reviewing their policy and practices and give them a smack down.

(3) Hire a lawyer and go after them.

If I lived in Torrance and wanted, not needed, a CCW, I'd do #1 first and then #2.

JMO
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Old 04-28-2018, 4:55 AM
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Or you can ignore all of the above and move down the 405 freeway about twenty miles just over the Orange County borderline and you'll get a ccw!
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Old 05-17-2018, 1:17 PM
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Any luck getting issued? Anyone else have recent experience with Torrance PD?
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  #7  
Old 06-13-2018, 6:45 PM
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This will answer your questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-wRgjsSHaGE

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  #8  
Old 06-22-2018, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CJ5&G23 View Post
Can CRPA file suit? NRA? Someone?

This is absurd.
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eh why bring logic into this, that makes too much sense... besides when you have bested a fool, you have accomplished nothing and he is a fool.
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
You can handle this two ways: (1) Play their game.

If someone has been law abiding, and has the money to burn for a CCW course (probably worthwhile even if you don't get a CCW), they may want to work up their best Good Cause statement, supported by evidence for each assertion (e.g., range receipts if you say you're an avid shooter who carries multiple rifles, shotguns and/or pistols and hundreds of rounds for each once or twice per month; photos of you in the wilderness if you say you go hiking/backpacking in the wilderness where there's spotty cell hone coverage at best and long LE response).

A denial for insufficient GC does not hurt your future chances. A denial for lack of GMC may hurt your future chances.

(2) Get the LA County Superior Court's Civil Grand Jury involved in reviewing their policy and practices and give them a smack down.

(3) Hire a lawyer and go after them.

If I lived in Torrance and wanted, not needed, a CCW, I'd do #1 first and then #2.

JMO
Forget about Option #2 - The L.A. County Civil Grand Jury has no source of standing to "smack" the city of Torrance over their CCW policies. Civil Grand Juries have broad authority to investigate government functions, but they can't cause any change unless their investigation reveals illegal conduct.

Forget about Option #3 (unless you just like throwing money away) - The way the current CCW statutes are written, there isn't an effective avenue to challenge them directly. Until the body of constitutional law recognizes a personal right to CCW, there isn't much traction available for a lawsuit.
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Old 07-04-2018, 1:35 PM
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Forget about Option #2 - The L.A. County Civil Grand Jury has no source of standing to "smack" the city of Torrance over their CCW policies. Civil Grand Juries have broad authority to investigate government functions, but they can't cause any change unless their investigation reveals illegal conduct.
That may well be, but it sure got Solano Co (city PDs and county SO) to clean up their acts AND to readily issue CCWs. See post 947 at:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...352744&page=24
sfpcservice (per post #948) was behind all that so anyone can PM him at CGN for more info on how he did it, how it went and how to do it.

As you can see from this SFBA local news report, the Grand Jury Report is what made Solano Co change its anti ways. Unfortunately, even to this day, some 9 years later, it is still the ONLY "green" county of the 9 SFBA counties.
Quote:
Things changed in 2009, after a grand jury found the Solano County sheriff may have had an “informal policy” of “denying access…and/or discouraging applicants.”

The number of people applying for new concealed carry permits has skyrocketed in Solano County, from 27 in 2011 to 254 so far this year.[2013 Nov 20]

A similar scenario played out in Sacramento County, after the gun rights group Calguns filed a lawsuit over the same issues. The county went from issuing 95 permits in 2009 to 727 in 2013.

In the nine-county Bay Area, the numbers are all over the chart: San Francisco for instance has not issued a single CCW permit in years. Marin County only has nine active permits. On the other end of the spectrum, Napa County has 359 and Solano County has the most at 451.

“A legal challenge can definitely motivate an official to act differently than they otherwise would, whether or not that challenge is meritorious,” said Cody Jacobs with the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

Jacobs has helped to defend half a dozen California sheriffs against what he views as orchestrated attacks by the gun lobby. “Their goal is to intimidate local officials into just giving everyone permits,” he told KPIX 5.

Calguns Foundation president Gene Hoffman disagrees. “When we have a person who is the chief law enforcement officer of a county not actually following state law, it’s impossible to say that we are out there intimidating them,” Hoffman said.

<snip>

KPIX 5 put in records requests to all nine Bay Area county sheriffs and came up with a total of 1,616 active CCW permits. Here is the breakdown:

Solano: 451
Napa: 359
San Mateo: 239
Contra Costa: 205
Alameda: 170
Santa Clara: 99
Sonoma: 84
Marin: 29
San Francisco: 0
From: https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...apons-permits/

Copies of the Solano Co Grand Jury Reports and city PD and county SO replies for 2008 - 2009 can be downloaded for free from:
http://www.solano.courts.ca.gov/Gran...s20082009.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Forget about Option #3 (unless you just like throwing money away) - The way the current CCW statutes are written, there isn't an effective avenue to challenge them directly. Until the body of constitutional law recognizes a personal right to CCW, there isn't much traction available for a lawsuit.
I was referring to the old "Billy Jack" approach using: (1) CBS v. Block to force (in case they resist) releasing all their CCW apps to review issued vs denied GCs. If you find unequal treatment in issuing CCWs, use (2) Guillory v. Co of Orange/Gates for a 14th A EP challenge and (3) Salute v. Pitchess to ensure they actually process all apps to conclusion (vs denying out-of-hand). It does not guarantee a CCW, but can get many people issued who otherwise won't. It does NOT involve a 2nd A claim.
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Last edited by Paladin; 07-04-2018 at 2:54 PM..
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  #11  
Old 09-15-2018, 3:51 PM
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Actually, it doesn't.

After 5 min in, you'll hear him say that others who were behind him were put ahead of him. So again, the narrator indicates this is not how a normal Torrance PD CCW applicant is processed.

Plus, if you watch the video to the end, in the last minute you will hear the narrator say that he believes he was singled out in retaliation for his 1st A right to Free Press and videos he's made about Torrance PD and other PDs. IOW, the average Torrance resident who applies won't be treated like he was.
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Old 09-15-2018, 9:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
That may well be, but it sure got Solano Co (city PDs and county SO) to clean up their acts AND to readily issue CCWs. See post 947 at:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...352744&page=24
sfpcservice (per post #948) was behind all that so anyone can PM him at CGN for more info on how he did it, how it went and how to do it.

As you can see from this SFBA local news report, the Grand Jury Report is what made Solano Co change its anti ways. Unfortunately, even to this day, some 9 years later, it is still the ONLY "green" county of the 9 SFBA counties.
From: https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...apons-permits/

Copies of the Solano Co Grand Jury Reports and city PD and county SO replies for 2008 - 2009 can be downloaded for free from:
http://www.solano.courts.ca.gov/Gran...s20082009.html

I was referring to the old "Billy Jack" approach using: (1) CBS v. Block to force (in case they resist) releasing all their CCW apps to review issued vs denied GCs. If you find unequal treatment in issuing CCWs, use (2) Guillory v. Co of Orange/Gates for a 14th A EP challenge and (3) Salute v. Pitchess to ensure they actually process all apps to conclusion (vs denying out-of-hand). It does not guarantee a CCW, but can get many people issued who otherwise won't. It does NOT involve a 2nd A claim.
Paladin,

The Solano County Grand Jury report was a very good find, but it's nearly ten years old and it pretty much summarizes what I posted. All the Grand Jury did was to report their finding to the public. They had no authority to make any changes to practice, nor did they. I scanned the larger police agencies responses to the Grand Jury report and non contained any major "mea culpa".

As to the listed lawsuits, none made any provision for sweeping changes in CCW issuance. L.A. County is one of the most difficult places to get a CCW permit, even after Salute. Orange County was equally impossible after Guillory and remained so throughout Carona's tenure and into Hutchens term. It wasn't the Guillory case that changed OCSD's policy, it was a volitional decision by Sheriff Hutchens. You left out the case of Hickman v Block which solidly upheld LASD's effective non-issuance policy. So long as IA's have the ability to vet "Good Cause", you're going to continue to see widely disparate standards for issue.
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Old 09-15-2018, 11:50 PM
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Actually, it doesn't.

After 5 min in, you'll hear him say that others who were behind him were put ahead of him. So again, the narrator indicates this is not how a normal Torrance PD CCW applicant is processed.

Plus, if you watch the video to the end, in the last minute you will hear the narrator say that he believes he was singled out in retaliation for his 1st A right to Free Press and videos he's made about Torrance PD and other PDs. IOW, the average Torrance resident who applies won't be treated like he was.
I've watched the video multiple times. Wish I knew who the person was since it would be interesting to hear from him. The individual seems to be upset about getting blown off so he's attempting to document what elsewise would probably not be believed to be true. It documents that police will act very unprofessionally and blow you off without recourse.

The simplest thing the police should have done is acted with integrity by meeting with him and having an interview. What's so hard about that? Instead, all they've done is piss the guy off even more and just further his cause of documenting unprofessional police conduct which the video shows and is now out there for all to see.

My impression is the guy is right, Torrance Police were acting unprofessionally over a sustained period of time. All residents of Torrance deserve to be treated the same, and his position "in line" should have been honored.
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Old 09-17-2018, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Paladin,

The Solano County Grand Jury report was a very good find, but it's nearly ten years old and it pretty much summarizes what I posted. All the Grand Jury did was to report their finding to the public. They had no authority to make any changes to practice, nor did they. I scanned the larger police agencies responses to the Grand Jury report and non contained any major "mea culpa".
So? All I know is that the SO changed to readily issuing CCWs in response to the investigation. Maybe elected sheriffs don't like to have scandals associated with their names? Plus, if the sheriff is readily issuing to all county residents, what does it matter what "larger police agencies" do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
As to the listed lawsuits, none made any provision for sweeping changes in CCW issuance. L.A. County is one of the most difficult places to get a CCW permit, even after Salute. Orange County was equally impossible after Guillory and remained so throughout Carona's tenure and into Hutchens term. It wasn't the Guillory case that changed OCSD's policy, it was a volitional decision by Sheriff Hutchens. You left out the case of Hickman v Block which solidly upheld LASD's effective non-issuance policy. So long as IA's have the ability to vet "Good Cause", you're going to continue to see widely disparate standards for issue.
You're confusing two different issues: the civil grand jury investigation that liberalized Solano Co SO CCW issuance, and the "Team Billy Jack" approach meant to get individuals CCWs in discriminatory issuance counties (what Garv and I were discussing before you entered our conversation). The TBJ approach, and the cases upon it was built, were never used/meant to liberalize a SO's GC policy (what you're discussing).
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:07 AM
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Quote: Orange County was equally impossible after Guillory and remained so throughout Carona's tenure and into Hutchens term. It wasn't the Guillory case that changed OCSD's policy, it was a volitional decision by Sheriff Hutchens. You left out the case of Hickman v Block which solidly upheld LASD's effective non-issuance policy. So long as IA's have the ability to vet "Good Cause", you're going to continue to see widely disparate standards for issue.

Carona was actually issuing permits - I had one. When Hutchens came in from LA, she stopped issuing for the most part. My renewal was denied for insufficient good cause. She remained non-issuing untiol a few years ago. When she came in, I even asked the County Supervisors who appointed her to address the issue with her and it did no good.
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Calif Hunter View Post
Quote: Orange County was equally impossible after Guillory and remained so throughout Carona's tenure and into Hutchens term. It wasn't the Guillory case that changed OCSD's policy, it was a volitional decision by Sheriff Hutchens. You left out the case of Hickman v Block which solidly upheld LASD's effective non-issuance policy. So long as IA's have the ability to vet "Good Cause", you're going to continue to see widely disparate standards for issue.

Carona was actually issuing permits - I had one. When Hutchens came in from LA, she stopped issuing for the most part. My renewal was denied for insufficient good cause. She remained non-issuing untiol a few years ago. When she came in, I even asked the County Supervisors who appointed her to address the issue with her and it did no good.
I'm not suggesting that Carona issued no permits. His issuance policy remained quite restrictive.

I'm not surprised that you found no success in your attempt for the Board of Supervisors to address the issue with the Sheriff. In California, Sheriffs do not answer to the Supervisors. They're independent constitutional officers and they tend to make sure that their Boards of Supervisors know that. At the same time, the BOS's control the majority of the Sheriff's budgets and then tend to make sure that the Sheriffs know that.
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:59 AM
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I found it quite easy to get a permit under Carona, and I had no political or financial ties. I spoke to the supervisors while they were deciding to appoint her to fill the remainder of Carona's term, which is why I thought it might be of some benefit.
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Old 09-24-2018, 11:07 AM
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Seems all I ever read or hear over the last few years has been how corrupt Torrance PD has been. Didn't the get a new chief of police in the last year or two because of corruption?
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Old 09-24-2018, 7:19 PM
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Lost all respect for Torrance p.d . They flat out lied to the guy. They are a disgrace to their profession . I worked 35 years for a government agency ( the other guys with lights and sirens) would never lie to the public like that .
He should go to the press and someone needs a few days off without pay to think about what they did . Just tell truth and you don’t have to remember the lie .
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Old 09-24-2018, 7:40 PM
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Onus.....
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