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Dros started. Can I add another rifle???
I have started the Dros process for 1 rifle that I am scheduled to pick-up this Friday. Since that was done, I have another rifle that I have purchased. This is being sent to the same FFL.
If process started as 1 rifle, can I add a second to rifle? Or, do I have to start the Dros process on the second rifle? Any response is much appreciated. Thank you in advance. Drew |
#2
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depends on the FFL. It is debatable whether or not the PC allows for rifles to be added to the DROS before the 4473 is finished. As such, some FFLs are willing to, and others won't. YOu'd have to ask YOUR FFL what his policy is.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#3
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Your FFL is the only person that will answer that question. I do it. Others don't.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
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The CA PC states that it has to be part of a single loan, transfer or sale. Adding to it later is not part of "single", yet some like to try to re-define what single is (which is where the only "debate" is). While some do it, the CA DOJ say that it is not acceptable.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#6
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I have never heard of a single dealer being written up for adding long guns to a DROS, but the DOJ will claim you can't do it as they want you to spend as much money as possible on new DROSes.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#7
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Thanks for that explanation Wes.
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Check out our e-commerce site here: www.ebrworks.com Serving you from Prescott, AZ |
#8
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As I have said numerous times, you can not use anything from the Feds since they don't talk about a single sale at all and a firearm transaction is different for the Feds than the State. You report the sale by submitting the DROS (Dealer Record Of Sale). You reported the sale PERIOD. If you then add a firearm, that is NOT single. Unfortunately it is true that common sense is not common. Look at the definition of the word "single" and also look at what you are saying and clearly it does not apply to two different sales of firearms done at two different times and two different days. You might be able to get away with the same day, if the person does not leave, but it is not a single sale if it involves different days AND you report the "sale", listing only one firearm.
Yes, you can often get away with it as it is hard to prove what actually happened, but that does not make it legal, nor is it wise to promote such activity on a public forum. Also, just because you have never heard of someone getting written up does not mean that it has not happened. I also don't think that it is honest (in this case) that it is just a money issue. The DOJ follows (for the most part) the laws that are created. They do not make the laws, so complain to your elected politicians about the law and get it changed.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#9
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If you really want to be careful, just tell the customer they are going to buy 10 guns. Then when they change their mind and only buy 2, then your DROS form will even look nice and neat. We simply just cross the number out and write the correct number.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#11
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Wes, you can do what you want, but you should not promote others to do what you are doing, which is putting your business at risk.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#12
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bottom line is that Wes is not the only FFL that does it. As I mentioned above, it is debatable whether or not it is prohibited. That is why the OP needed to ask his FFL to see what HIS policy was.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#13
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Take a look at the freeways and you will see a lot of people breaking the law by speeding, so saying that others do it does not mean anything. The same is true for FFLs who don't collect sales tax.
Personally, I don't see that "debatable" aspect to it. There is a 10 day waiting period after selling a firearm (look at the CA PC), so if you add a long gun just before the firearms are delivered, you have a problem. You can't really claim that two firearms sold on different days are really part of a "single" sale. The CA DOJ says no as well. Some might want to debate what the word "single" means, but it is also dishonest to try to use Federal law to promote the position when "single" is not used and a firearm transaction is clearly different. The only aspect is that FFLs get away with it.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#14
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I have a similar question as a buyer.
Lets pick a date, Aug 1. At one dealer on that date i will begin DROS of a handgun, followed by a second handgun, and included in this order is a longgun. The dealer will do all three and schedule the dates. My question is, at what date or in what period can i buy another longgun from another dealer?
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Slim River Carry Slings for Henry AR-7 |
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”Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.” ~Unknown ”A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” ~George Washington |
#16
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As was said, there is no limit on the number of long guns purchased. There is a limit on the number of handguns, unless you are exempt (for example. if you have a C&R FFL and CA DOJ COE or that the handgun is transferred as a PPT). If there were two handguns transferred within 30 days and neither was exempt from the 1 in 30, the second one will be rejected.
Also, you can not add a long gun to a handgun DROS (although some will claim otherwise, but all firearm transactions have to be reported and in CA each handgun is a firearm transaction and any number of non-handguns done as a single sale, loan or transfer is consider a single firearm transaction).
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
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Wes, it is not a lie. You are wrong.
There is no issue adding a long gun to a 4473 as that is fine under Federal law. Read the CA PC, not in a warped manner (such as claiming that handguns are not a firearm transaction), and you will see that each firearm transaction must be reported. A firearm transaction is a handgun or any number of non-handguns that are part of a single sale, loan or transfer. So, a handgun and a long gun are two separate firearms transactions and therefore both must be reported on two separate DROS. This can be confirmed with the CA DOJ. I have even talked to BATF agents and they also understand it, even though it is CA law and they deal with Federal law. Talk to a firearm attorney. Wes, put up or shutup, get the Cal Guns Foundation to make a legal statement/opinion about this. Promoting illegal activity on this forum is in violation of the rules.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
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If you are so correct, prove to me I am wrong. I would have no problem stating the penal code doesn't allow it if that were the case. For those of you who haven't seen this dog and pony show before, here are some links. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=31037 http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=230841 http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=240302 I am sure there are more, but for those of you wanting to waste a bunch of your time reading Ken and I banter, go for it. You definitely should be wiser on this subject when you are finished.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 05-02-2011 at 11:26 AM.. |
#21
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Wes, you are on the Board of the Calguns Foundation, it would be much easier for you to get them to make a statement on the issue.
Read the CA PC, not just the one section. Don't take things out of context.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#22
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Ok in my case, back to the dates,
Step 1. DROS one handgun and one longgun Aug 1 Step 2. DROS second handgun Sept 1 from the same dealer. My question was, during August and the above transaction, can i buy another longgun from another dealer? Secondarily, now reading the posts im totally confused about whether the first dealer will DROS all three in one transaction or separate DROS for each. Is there a consensus on either side of any fence?
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Slim River Carry Slings for Henry AR-7 |
#23
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Long guns are not limited, you can buy one every hour if you want to.
You can not DROS all three in one transaction. Two handguns and one long gun require 3 DROS (if you want to follow the law). If you are exempt from the 1 in 30, then you can do two or more handguns, one right after another, which saves some money (ie. C&R FFL & COE). You mentioned 01-Aug and 01-Sept, that is a month apart. Are you talking about getting them and doing the paperwork all at the same time or what?
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#24
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Just saw this thread. Wes, How do you get around the number of firearms stated on the CA DROS when you increase the number of firearms you have put on the 4473 after the original sale date.
DO you cancel the DROS and make your customer wait another 10 days? Never heard of being able to increase the DROS number without recreating a new DROS. Please let us know how this works so we can do the same thing ?
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Golden State Tactical <---click here > An FORMER Outpost Deep In the Heart of the Beast! Home of "California Compliant" AR15 Parts and Magazines and some of the lowest priced guns in the state!!! |
#25
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I don't write down any number on the 4473 until the sale is complete after the salesperson signs it.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#26
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Does Increasing the number create DOJ Scrutiny? Any case where this has been addressed here before. News to me and in a good way!!
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Golden State Tactical <---click here > An FORMER Outpost Deep In the Heart of the Beast! Home of "California Compliant" AR15 Parts and Magazines and some of the lowest priced guns in the state!!! |
#27
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While Wes claims to do this, you might want to look at the CA PC. Wes is claiming that the sale does not end until the firearms are delivered, but then there is the 10 day waiting period after a sale. If you ask the CA DOJ they say that it is not legal to do it.
While it is hard to get caught doing this, it is not legal to do it based on my reading of the CA PC. There are many things that are done which are not legal and it is rare for the person to get caught, but that does not mean that it is worth the risk.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#28
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The CA DOJ says it is legal to cross out the number of long guns and put a lessor number. I wonder why they won't allow you to put a greater number? You can also avoid this by simply putting 20 long guns on every DROS and then have every single client decide they want less. There are a ton of ways to play this dog and pony show. The DOJ knows they don't have a leg to stand on.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#29
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You are playing games, such as trying to claim that what the Federal law determines to be a transaction and what is allow makes a difference with respect to CA law, which is not the case. Nor is it the case that the CA BOE and what they claim is a sale, specifically when sales tax is due, applies either. The BOE is a funny case since the sale does not end until the item is delivered, yet there is a 10 day waiting period after the sale of a firearm, so how could that ever work? It is different issues. You are basically giving false information which could cause a person to have serious problems. Considering your position with the CalGuns Foundation, I have to wonder why you would choose to do this and continue to do this. You have stated that your partner does not agree with some of the things that you promote so you don't do it, yet you continue to promote it for others.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
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As a board of director on the Calguns Foundation, I evaluate cases and decide what is worthy of our donors support. You have pointed my behavior on this issue to the board and they didn't ask me to stop. I guess I will run this by a lawyer again and see if he cares this time. Not sure why he would when no one else does including the CA DOJ.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
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It is on the document and it really does not matter who decided because it is there. Quote:
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Yes, you are promoting something which you do not do, which is hypocritical to me. If you can't convince your partner, why are you trying to convince others? You said that you do it, but then you said that you don't because of your partner, so which is true? It bothers me because others might listen to you and do it, only to get caught and have a problem and perhaps lose their business and cost them a lot of money. I don't know why you don't get something so simple. Quote:
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I suspect that many just ignore you on this aspect (I have been told this by some), but that is not considering what could happen to someone who listens. You should be honest and up front and say that you don't actually do it, instead of just when you get called on it.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
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Yes, after it is pointed out what you actually do, you admit it, so it is not possible to point to a thread, but your first post in this thread on the subject you don't make it clear where you stand on the issue. This is one, so is that all it takes or are you going to make up an excuse and claim because you later said the truth that it does not count?
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#34
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What my partner does not want me to do is add long guns onto a handgun DROS. So that is the one you are looking for, but won't find. Again, what does this have to do with the penal code? Nothing. Just more of your hand wringing trying to catch me up on something that isn't there because your position in the penal code isn't defensible. Anyway, I just e-mailed my lawyer. We will see what he says. Don't hold your breathe as it is probably going to be just as slow as the last time I asked.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#35
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No, Wes, I am not confused.
Actually, it does have something to do with the penal code since there are requirements there. You don't want to understand that if you sell a firearm on Monday, then sell another one on Friday, it is not part of a single sale and that even if it was, you would have to wait 10 days after the sale on Friday, as required by the CA PC. You also have a problem with understanding the word "single", which the Federal law does not discuss, but that is best ignored so that your can try to keep your position. What did he say the last time you asked? Oh, no comment about what you sign?
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#36
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Part two, if I don't submit any corrections to the application, then I don't have to wait ten more days. This however, is a great question because if you submit a DROS correction on a handgun, does that mean the 10 days has to re-start? That is an interesting can of worms. So to get around this I simply cross out the incorrect data and keep it on file. No submission, no restart of the ten days. Part three, the fee goes in at the start of the ten days so we are clear there as well. The only space for your argument is when I submit a correction to the application. However, that means a whole lot of people are violating this one in changing the DROS online. We need to go look up that code some more. If I don't submit the changes, then I am not bound to the new ten days. We will also have to read up on the requirements for errors, corrections, or just plain changes. Work on it kemasa and let us know what you find. I'll look later today. I gotta get down to the shop.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#37
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There are also other PC sections as well. There is the SINGLE sale aspect, which you want to look at in strange ways. As I said, get a known firearms attorney to give a legal opinion on it which hold to what you claim and then you might have something. Get it in writing.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#39
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Go look at a dictionary and stop playing games. Quite clearly singles does not mean multiple and that is what you are trying to claim that it is. It could not be a week nor anything over a day, at the most. The problem is that if you get charged, you are going to be laughed at if you try to make those claims in court. No reasonable person would say that selling two different firearms on two different days is a single sale.
Let's reverse it, where do you claim that single can be anything other than the dictionary definition or be over 1 day, at the most? You keep trying to use the Federal law, but that is bogus. I could ask you where many things are defined in the PC since there are many things which are not because it is assumed that words have common meanings. If they did what you want, the PC would be infinite in size and length as they would have to define everything six ways from Sunday. Don't play games, don't make things worse. If you look at the changes with the PPT, you will see those changes came because of the abuse. Do you really want each and every firearm to have to be submitted on a separate DROS? Why don't you take a poll and ask how many people think it is legal, not just that they think that they can get away with it?
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein Last edited by kemasa; 08-11-2011 at 2:28 PM.. |
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Your poll got shut down before. Start it again. I won't comment in it. I will just cast my vote. Make sure to keep the voting anonymous. Your poll means nothing, but if it makes you feel better.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
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